It’s happening: Lou Dobbs’ dream come true and Silicon Valley’s worst nightmare. We’re already seeing the reverse brain drain as smart immigrants take their US educations and experience building companies and creating technology back to their home countries. But now, xenophobia and the lack of any sensible H-1B visa policy is keeping the world’s brightest minds from coming to the U.S. in the first place.
U.S. grad school admissions for would-be international students plummeted this year, according to the Council of Graduate Schools—the first decline in five years. The decline was 3% on average, thanks to increases from China and the Middle East, but some countries saw double-digit declines in interest in a U.S. education. Applicants from India and South Korea fell 12% and 9% respectively—with students turning their sights on schools in Asia and Europe instead.
This shouldn’t be a surprise. Much of the world’s economic growth—hence, jobs—is in emerging markets, the schools are far cheaper and in many cases competitive academically, and then there’s the H-1B issue. If America won’t allow a PhD just trained in our top schools to work here and contribute to the economy—why come here and take on the student loans to begin with?
Make no mistake: This is a huge blow for the United States, and particularly Silicon Valley. It’s killing diversity in graduate schools at a time future business leaders most need to understand other countries, especially Asian ones. Xenophobic, anonymous cowards may leave as much bile in the comments as they want: The reality is one out of every four tech companies is started by an immigrant. In the tech industry, immigrants have created more high paying jobs than they’ve “stolen.”
And nearly every CEO will tell you how much added cost and hassle there is in hiring a foreign-born worker—they do it because they physically can not find enough appropriately skilled workers in the U.S. (Below is an interview I did with LinkedIn’s Reid Hoffman about this very subject a few months ago, and he wrote a guest post on TechCrunch discussing the issue as well.)
Indeed, a recent study by the Bay Area Council, the Campaign for College Opportunity and IHELP showed that we’d need a 90% upswing in people graduating with degrees in science, technology, math or engineering to keep up with all the new jobs being created in that discipline. What created Silicon Valley was a culture of openness and there is no future to Silicon Valley without it.
You know that American dream and American spirit of innovation we always talk about? Turns out, the bulk of it was built by people who came to America from somewhere else, not people born American. We have no birthright or natural lock on these things. Money and talent are fungible assets that flowed to the U.S.—and specifically the Valley—because that is where they were supported and rewarded.
Some people have blithely dismissed growth in markets like China and India saying Silicon Valley will always be the hub for tech; that everyone will come to us. Wake up: Because the numbers are showing money and talent is increasingly going elsewhere.
(Flickr image by Stephen Pierzchala)
Tuition for a California resident at any state community college is about $60 a class.
Foreign kids from other countries pay over $1000 per class. A HUGE economic recession just happened this past year.
Go on Craigslist in the software/DBA jobs section and you will see that most people explicitly ask H1B’s NOT to apply.
We can’t squander our employment on people who have no vested interest in our country and communities. We have to educate the people who are here and get the homeless people pushing shopping carts all over the god damned place an education.
You’d be surprised how many people have bought into the misguided claim that the US is the land of opportunities AND are willing to adopt the US as there home…it’s sad to see that people like you are STILL of the misguided opinion that immigrants “have no vested interest” in your country.
Further, I’m all for having Americans getting jobs…but how many Americans want to do the low paying jobs that the immigrants are willing to do…? or are willing to put up with the shit that the immigrants put up with to feed their families?
There are really two levels of immigration. The first level are the highly educated immigrations who want to come here for the opportunity. We should let these folks in ASAP. In fact we should recruit them. The second level are the poor who are willing to work for us. We should limit their access, but do so in a smart meaningful way. I drew up a plan for this second group:
http://www.texa...osal-revisited/
Maybe we would have room for the foreigners that bring value to the country if we could get rid of all the illegals streaming across the border from the south.
How do you think it makes a scientist or engineer from foreign country feel not to be able to get in to the U.S., but the typical illegal from mexico get free pass, free health care, uses fake SS number, drive with no insurance, and if caught for a crime they are released and then go back home for a while and then when things cool off come back under another fake ID?
So, to the TechCrunch elite, a person is not xenophobe because they point out illegal immigration is a real problem that is destroying the U.S.
Honesty is not invited to such debates about immigration. The “X” word is used as a shaming device whenever someone dares mention that immigration isn’t some kind of panacea. It has its problems too. As you rightly say, pointing out problems with immigration does not make you a xenophobe.
Your argument is ludicrous. Do you really believe those illegal immigrants enjoy living uncertain lives prone to arrest and deportation, at minimum wage more likely than not – which in the US means starvation level pay? Merely because things in South America are completely horrible doesn’t mean living a subsistence existence illegally in the USA is some sort of paradise, with no health care or any kind of security for old age.
I do agree that it is ludicrous that a country as broken as the US is actually limiting immigration of highly trained foreigners; you should be actively recruiting, not putting up road blocks, because the US is not looking that hot as a place to live these days and with the lunatic voices rising and becoming more strident daily, it doesn’t seem to be improving.
The problem is that all the H1B’s are going to Indians when the best and most intelligent workers come from China
http://en.wikip...Q-Map-World.png
In Indian culture it’s considered normal to lie on your resume, it’s all just part of the game of getting the job. What happens then is that the H1B workers that America is actually getting are sub par in intelligence and great at lying.
This is the real flaw, any American programmer will have experienced this first hand where an H1B was brought in and it soon became apparent that their claimed skills and experience were highly innacurate.
The theory is good, the reality is flawed which is why these arguments occur, you’re arguing about different things. The people who are in favor of this agree with the theory, the people against have experienced the reality.
Wow Phil, you have some serious insecurity or hate issues. Get some help, man.
“In Indian culture it’s considered normal to lie on your resume…”
Can I also generalize that in Chinese culture, it is normal to spit and snot in public? But apparently, “…the best and most intelligent workers come from China”? So go figure. Lol
Every one lie in their resume or exaggerate their facts. Not just one race. Seriously, you need some serious help.
I’m from India, and sadly what Phil said is true, India is riding on an IT hype, that thinks, everyone in India is a software genius.
Further from the truth, due to English language skills and population, you are bound to get 1 or 2 percent of workforce who would work in IT.
90% of resume from India are botched up and lies, i know i did that to get my H1b and i regret it. it was all fun when young to be in US and live the dream, even though i did not make it, i lied.
You really have to be in India to gauge the hype around IT, not a single, software which is worth it salt, is used locally, which would make people lifes better.
India will only grow, when US will, all these software companies will close down in a day, if US goes down, there is no local market here for software.
Yet, it is not to say that, there are no IT expert in India, there are but they would do well, in any profession they would have worked.
Please don’t hype India and Asia, to hide Americas REAL problem, we are same as you, God did not gift us any special talent as much as it did for you guys.
I m with Phil & Sunil Here. I am from India and I have seen many US goers create fake experience certificates, fake knowledge in their resume. No kidding. I m very serious.
In one way, one benefit with India having all those those people with fake experience gone to US is that core competent people stays in India.
I have seen people going to such an extent to gouge their experiences that they pay to their teachers (at school) to get a recommendation letters etc…
I would suggest to stop outsourcing and H1B with immediate effect. It may create little problems initially, but then once if all things settle down, the unemployment in US will be nonexistent.
So after all these years US firms are putting up with these sub par Indian IT work force and still surviving…these guys must be doing some thing, not having any good skills but still a big part of IT dept in almost all sectors.
@Sunil
“…not a single, software which is worth it salt, is used locally, which would make people lifes better. ”
Your ignorance about how things are shaping up in India with respect to use of software and local business is encyclopedic.
Do you have any support for your 90% forged claim or just because you are a liar you are using your skills to lie about it as well.
If you are in confession mode go to a church. To contribute in an intelligent debate you’ll need more than a few imagined numbers.
@Phil
Very interesting.
A billion + Chinese and all of extremely high IQ. All Australians of the lowest IQ. Amazing. This is taking generalization to extremes.
Follow the first link at the end of the wiki page (under File Links section) and go through the details – if you can read and understand it. Or you may ask a Chinese to help you understand.
“In Indian culture it’s considered normal to lie on your resume, …”
Do you, er.. understand the words Indian and culture. Maybe you could ask your Chinese friend to explain that too.. or check out Wiki once again
Hello!!….. When did lying become a race feature?? this is weird…. People lie everywhere and in every country. It could probably be that Americans themselves are the biggest cheats. Dont your sportsmen take steriods? are they too not lying about their capabilities?
To simply say, the lure of success makes one lie in different circumstances. It is not the country which makes one cheat or lie.
As for saying that Indians have substandard knowledge – I can only laugh at this. Get a life dude. Everything from a USB port, to the Intel Pentium chip; everything was designed by Indians – employed in US companies.
Read this article with care, otherwise you may very well have the next best chip or OS coming out from India. It is not the brains that India lacks, it is the money to invest in R&D. But with Indian companies going big, this may soon become a thing of the past.
@Phil
My experience can verify your opinion.
I am from India and I would disagree withe deven, sunil and phil. Yes there are Indians out there who would cook up their resumes but every nationality have those. and i would put the onus on the employer to weed out those candidates in the interview process. the reason there are tons of indians in the IT field is not because they fake their resumes..its because they are good at what they do.
add on top the other warped values… you often find with people coming from that part of the world. Whether it is child prostitution (first born girl) to friends of the family, arranged marriages… and a bunch of other crap that is so far away from the values of this country…
@Phil
Dude, you really need some help. And LOL, and where did you get that map…which says whole china is smarter that whole south Asia, north America, south America and northern Africa? and you believe in that… you are moron !!
@Sunil and @Deven
hmm, are you guys working as a contractor from some company in india? I think, your guilty conscious is biting your brain.. People getting US degrees from good school did not need to lie in their resume..
Here’s a true story:
While working for a government agency, I was approached by my boss and an Indian guy who had been working on a project with a one year deadline. The Indian guy was at the six month point in his project, and all he had to show for it were some PowerPoint slides of what the UI ought to look like.
My boss began the conversation by telling me that since the Indian had shown no progress, I was going to have the whole ugly mess dropped in my lap; I would have six months to complete the one year project.
Then this conversation happened:
Indian guy: “Guys? I have a confession to make. I exaggerated on my resume. The truth is, I’m a terrible programmer. I can’t build this project. Can I do something else?”
My boss: “Say again?”
Indian guy: “Why don’t you let me manage the MTS server? I can set things up for you, and you can focus on programming.”
Me: “Because I can handle MTS on my own, without help. It takes, like a minute to set things up. You can’t program at all?”
Indian guy: “No, I made that part up.”
Me: “You’re not very good at P.R, are you?”
He got fired immediately, and I had to sweat blood for the next six months to try and finish the project. I was optimistic, though; I was using VB.Net and web services, and it looked like the project was going to work out pretty well. Suddenly, after several 70-hour weeks working on the project, I was attacked from all sides, my boss, his boss, other people… My boss thought I was scamming overtime pay and lying about my projections. He assigned a new project manager, a nice guy really, who said I’d be done only three months over the deadline if I went back to a 40 hour work week. This seemed reasonable to me; my boss thought it was unacceptable and yanked the rug right out from under me. I was off the project.
They gave it to ANOTHER group of consultants, led by another H1-B. He worked on it for six months, totally rewriting the whole thing so it used some wonky old VB6 framework instead of .Net web services. His project failed when his transport mechanism was no longer supported by Microsoft. He got backstabbed by a separate group of consultants, who wanted the project for themselves.
The other group, led by an Indian who was raised in the U.S, rewrote the whole thing from scratch AGAIN, this time trying to implement their own version of “Struts on .Net” in the process. About a year later, THEIR project had semi-failed, and they announced that they were going to convert it to work with a framework they were downloading from the web.
I’d left the agency in disgust by that point, but I got a lot of Schadenfreude out of keeping an eye on the project. I’d have finished it in three months, but that was just too long for my dipshit bosses. So their pet consultants took about a year and a half, including the geek equivalent of a military coup, and STILL didn’t finish it. Isn’t that a gas?
FYI: Government work is insane, guys. Seriously. You need an industrial strength sense of humor to tolerate it.
@GovtGuy Wow..nice story. Where did you learn how to write nice stories like this. Learned from the High IQ chinese, Phil?
Sunil and Deven Bhatachariya are both fake. I would love to see your true identity (facebook, Linkedin or twitter account)
@Mike D: Thanks for the compliment. However, just as I didn’t name the agency, the bosses, or the consultants who dragged a project out for a year and a half, I’m not going to name MYSELF, either. Anonymity is a lovely thing.
While we’re on the topic, I don’t know anything about “High IQ Chinese”, but I think it’s very funny that you assume I have a facebook, linkedin, or twitter account. You must be very young.
With that, I assure you, young man, that I am not fake. I also assure you that the ludicrous story I told you happened in exactly that way. Truth is often stranger than fiction.
I’ll leave you with another amusing anecdote. I spent a short time reviewing resumes for my agency. The bosses wanted to divert hires towards a specific vendor, and in particular, one foreign consultant they were fond of (he was the consultant whose transport method was deprecated by Microsoft, incidentally). I was directed to mark all other applicants down by five points for each of the various things we were grading them on, and mark the desired applicant up by five points in similar ratings. Furthermore, I was instructed that we never EVER checked references, and every time I found a promising American candidate, I was told that he “wasn’t what we were looking for”.
I decided not to play ball; I marked all the resumes I was handed with a red sharpie, with notes like “Obvious LIE” and “Impossible to verify” whenever they said things like “10 years .Net experience” (in 2004) or claimed experience in some imaginary shop overseas.
I was removed from resume duty within a week (my bosses were quite annoyed, but couldn’t do anything about it). I was never bothered with resume duty again.
Like I said, working for the government is crazy. But unlike the private sector, civil disobedience is not punished with immediate termination.
@Mike D: Waitaminnit… Did you call me PHIL???
You are too funny! So not only am I supposed to have a facebook, linkedin, or twitter account (or apparently I don’t exist – ha ha!) but now I’m Phil’s sock-puppet, even though he’s had no problem with putting his name on his posts.
My goodness, would you listen to yourself?
Ok, I’ll reassure you. I am not Phil’s sock-puppet. In fact, I don’t know him from Adam. For that matter, I doubt he actually has a magic IQ map that works.
I don’t have any strong feelings about the relative intelligence of Indians, Chinese, or Americans. Personally, I don’t think there have ever been any proven links between race and intelligence. My theory is that every nation has a small percentage of intelligent people and a large percentage of remarkably stupid people.
I DO know that Indians seem to lie on their resumes a lot. I’ve met dumb Indians, but I’ve met smart ones also. I haven’t worked with many Chinese people, but out of those I have worked with, most have seemed basically ok.
Hands down, my favorite foreigners are Russians. They can drink Longshoremen under the table, they have excellent senses of humor when it comes to government bureaucracy, and they appreciate a neat hack when they see it. If you want to experience programmer happiness, get on a team with a few Russians. You’ll have fun.
Gotta go, kiddo… Keep a stiff upper lip!
LAST NOTE FROM GOVT GUY:
I had to look up Phil’s magic map. It’s actually from this Wikipedia article:
http://en.wikip...in_Intelligence
Note that the book mentioned in the article is rather harshly criticized by one of the very experimental psychologists who produced the data it uses! Essentially he says the book isn’t very good and reflects more on the author’s issues than on any actual information about race differences. In fact, he says the author gives I.Q. testing a bad name.
I wouldn’t take the map (or the book it came from) very seriously.
Ok, I’m done.
@Phil : Event though you’re clearly a troll I’ll bite.
Even if for a sec we assume that all Indians, BTW I’m Indian, are liars and lie in their resume, they are still better than the Chinese IP thieves who do nothing but steal IP from US firms. There are numerous examples which can be sited:
1) Avanti vs Cadence
2) Cisco vs Huawei
3) The numerous so called scientists of Chinese decent who have been caught.
China was perfectly happy to have a contract with Rio Tinto, but when it decided to cancel the contract China suddenly found that there was corporate espionage happening, Come on!!!
Don’t know where you work, but in many big US companies who use cheap Chinese labor there are serious restrictions on what code is shared with China offices, while no such restrictions exist for India, go figure.
@Sunil and Deven: Are you guys really Indians or are you just venting since you lost your jobs to some Indian (whether H1-B or not)?
Either way, almost everyone exaggerates on their resume, whether Indian, American, etc. That is why there are interviews. And, law of averages apply everywhere, there are good and bad engineers everywhere.
@Deven: Since you say “US goers” I’m assuming that you are in India, but deep in your heart you want to be in US. Do I see sour grapes somewhere?
She isn’t talking about the Mexicans who groom your lawn. She’s talking about H1-B engineers and highly educated immigrants.
That said, I’m a little irritated by Sarah’s very noticeable sense of entitlement (for the Valley).
Try http://www.clasilistados.org
China:
http://www.clasilistados.cn
India:
http://www.clasilistados.in
So we get the other side of this crap from YOU now, early on and neither are worth a damn.
How retarded.
as if all the jobs were lousy, that is not true, there are MANY people who would do these many of these jobs, roads, construction, etc. but a lot of companies dont want to pay for the work, or the classes to educate people for them. they want to hire someone who cant complain lest they are illegal or can get shipped back to their country. time for companies to deal with the people already here.
@Chris:
“We can’t squander our employment on people who have no vested interest in our country and communities. We have to educate the people who are here and get the homeless people pushing shopping carts all over the god damned place an education.”
You talk as if employment is this resource that can be easily distributed to the unemployed/homeless living here in this country.
As you pointed out, tuition for a California resident is about $60 a class so educating the people who are here is not a problem. It seems not enough are interested in the high-tech jobs.
Getting the homeless people an education is a noble deed, but how many are interested in a high-tech job and how many years will it take to groom them for those jobs of today? There is enough room for H1B’s here. They are ready to work. Also, immigrants create jobs with their startups so they are increasing the employment pool you are so afraid of squandering.
When you see a job than ask the H-1Bs not apply it often means that the already have an H-1B in the job and they are trying to get the person a green card. H-1B workers may be hired even when a qualified U.S. worker wants the job, and a U.S. worker can be displaced from the job in favor of the foreign worker. That is not true for the green card. To give a foreigner a green card, even if he already works for you, you must look for an American. The way it is usually done it to advertise the job in places you do not expect to find qualified workers. Because these fake job ads are designed to show the government there are no American workers for the job they only want responses from citizens and green card holders.
The law firm Cohen & Grigsby put on a seminar on how not to hire an American and still comply with the law. Their attorney Lawrence M. Lebowitz said this:
“And our goal is clearly not to find a qualified and interested U.S. worker. And you know in a sense that sounds funny, but it’s what we’re trying to do here. We are complying with the law fully, but ah, our objective is to get this person a green card, and get through the labor certification process. So certainly we are not going to try to find a place [at which to advertise the job] where the applicants are the most numerous. We’re going to try to find a place where we can comply with the law, and hoping, and likely, not to find qualified and interested worker applicants.”
Why do employers want to avoid Americans? Foreigners are cheaper. H-1Bs are about a third less. They accept the low pay because it is still higher than they could get at home and they get substantial non monetary compensation in the form of American citizenship.
See
http://www.yout...h?v=TCbFEgFajGU
http://www.yout...x–jNQYNgA
“Why do employers want to avoid Americans?”. That’s a rather strong accusation to make. What if you simply want to retain a worker who performs well, has the necessary training and has generally been a good employee for a few years? Should you have to kick that person out just because another qualified american exists, as the green card process requires you to do? Not an easy question to answer – you can swing one way or the other depending on your philosophy. But it’s not always about ulterior motives.
Yes. Exactly.
sure, send that person back to his home country and let them build up their regions, and hire a us citizen,
and let them help build up this country.
One article by Sarah Lacy is never going to expose the underlying hoax of the H-1B visa and its decades of gross abuse by corporations while the INS and congress turned their head the other way.
There is simply no shortage of engineering talent in the USA. The fact is that a smart engineer could make more money in the USA by opening a pizza francise.
Corporations in America has used the H-B1 as a form of indentured servitude (aka slavery). Now the foreign candidates have better quality choices, less cost and higher prospects. All the while, American industry spins counterclockwise down the drain with idiots like Barney Frank in charge of Finance committees from no consequence states like Massachusetts, yes, no consequence. Even Los Angeles could eat Massachusetts for lunch. It’s almost as bad has having Senators from Rhode Island with equal votes as Senators from California. What a ridiculous joke.
Let me guess, your from California?
And your name is McGovern?
Agree. There is PLENTY of engineering talent available right NOW in the US. We lag behind in engineering grads because NO ONE wants to major in CS. Why would they when salaries are being constantly squeezed by outsourced labor.
Look if If corporations genioulsy need immigrants due to shortage in talent then let h-1bs. BUT, also make it so the foreign worker doesn’t become a indentured servant. Make it so they can switch companies easily if they WANT to. This way at least, salaries won’t be driven down to 0. Why does techcrunch always ignore this side of the arguement? You guys even had a post on how many workers are being laid off in SV. And we need MORE immigrants. WTF? Americans are smart and can do these jobs also. I say let them.
Also, I think Indians and Chinese are staying home because frankly, IBM, Microsoft and Intel are setting shop over there. There is no reason to come to this land of declining power, status, infrastructure and living standards.
Do you actually live in America? Undergrad CS majors can expect to make 80+k after graduating.
If … that’s a big IF … they can find a job. Where in America can you be an just out UnderGrad and get a job making 80+k a year. Certainly not in the market I live in.
Plenty of places.
Seattle works; MSFT’s entry level salary is typically about 82k.
Silicon Valley works as well – MSFT, Google (factoring in benefits), Facebook, etc. all exceed 80k.
I’m sorry Aaron, I don’t know what the hell you are talking about. Except for google, the average undergrad cs major makes only 65,000 after graduation.
Compared to peers who goes into investment banking and make 100,000 their first year. It’s a sad sad salary.
@Ray: I’ve had multiple offers on the west coast from large firms, none lower than 85k; the same is true for the more technologically competent of my class. Taking into account that Ibanking is mostly in NYC, with its obscene cost of living – and has horrid hours – the salary of a programmer isn’t much worse.
LIE! LIE!
Show me one ad offering entry level at 80+ for a new graduate.
Candy: Microsoft SDE does that.
What this video about how immigrants have contributed (high-skilled).
What this to see why (high skilled) immigrants are important.
http://www.yout...h?v=BEpDv64mlYE
Thanks for sharing this article. Insightful. Go change the world Grant!
I spent 3 months in the US this year, and it cost me about £400 in visa/application costs, not to mention the £500 flight and £150 insurance (which didn’t cover me if I lost 1 limb – only 2 limbs or more- funnily).
That is a ton of money just for 3 months working, never mind 1 year in an expensive college with expensive housing!
Obama, please hurry up with immigration reform. Why the hell are there borders for any country anyway? The European Union needs to take over the world so everyone can move to any country without a single form <3
The EU ain’t much better when it comes to immigration. They’d much rather hire a less qualified doctor/engineer from an EU country than a more qualified “foreign” doctor/engineer (that’s their immigration policy essentially)
Amen, Sarah.
Good to have some common sense into this debate.
With Academic Earth, Open Course Ware, Yauba, and Itunes University, people now can find not only lecture notes, and lecture mp3s, but entire lecture classes on video, even without setting foot into the U.S.
Yes, you say, nothing beats the real experience of being in a classrom.
Maybe not.
But if you are a talented foreigner and you see US piling on debt after debt and taxes after taxes, making the green card and working process as difficult as possible, and then after you get your green card, then makes you pay taxes on your worldwide income, even if you decide to go back to your home country (someone only North Korea also does), then the calculations start to get a bit easier.
Of course, if the US had a good healthcare system or a decent social net, that may be an issues. Unfortunately, the US model is broken, and will be broken for a long time. It was good while it lasted … but unfortunately, we killed the goose that lays the golden eggs/
+ 10000 for the pointer to Yauba
I found the entire Feynman Lectures on Physics in pdf, mp3 and video … WTF!
http://au.yauba...&target=all
When you go back to your country, you have the option to give up your green card and never pay a dime in taxes again to the US government.
http://www.with...become-law.aspx
The new tax regime applies to certain individuals who relinquish their US citizenship[1] and certain long-term U.S. residents (i.e., green card holders) who terminate their U.S. residence (hereafter referred to as ‘expatriates’).[2] The so-called ‘mark-to-market’ tax will apply to the net unrealized gain on the expatriate’s worldwide assets as if such property were sold (the ‘deemed sale’) for its fair market value on the day before the expatriation date.
In light of the Act, individuals who are considering expatriation should consider the substantial new tax burdens that this action will generate. Those persons who expatriate after the enactment date and who are considering making gifts or bequests to U.S. persons in the future should also review their planning. In addition, trustees should very carefully consider whether trust beneficiaries are covered expatriates before making any distribution without withholding U.S. tax. Trustees who fail to become familiar with the new rules do so at their peril.
I can you reply to something like that.If you want to be here so bad come but you cannot expect a country to give up its borders or right to deny entrance.
Ger
Borders might have something to do with those 30M people living on $10K or less a year living south of the US. We didn’t have welfare systems in the 1800’s.
Aren’t the borders the manifestation of last 120 years or so? Before that there were restriction for moving armies around but not people.
No need to go to US any more for education, when thereis Academic Earth, Open Course Ware, Yauba, and Itunes University.
Heck, I found the entire Feynman Lectures on Physics in pdf, mp3 and video … in less than 5 seconds.
http://au.yauba...30;..target=all
reply
Feynman lectures rock
Aalok…borders are meant to identify a country. Duh.
Are you suggesting that anyone can move freely to this country? So if 400 million new people show up next year, I’m so supposed to be ok with that? I’m supposed to pay taxes for them?
Tell you what. How about you post your address here. I’ll round up a posse and we’ll bust thru your front door (since we won’t be asking for your permission to enter). WE will decide that we will stay in your apartment/house. And to pile on, we will demand that you feed us. And you will provide all sorts of services to us. You will have no say in the matter at all.
Sounds familiar?
I don’t know that you were trying to be funny, but I had such strong visual to what you wrote that I laughed out loud! Excellently put…
>We didn’t have welfare systems in the 1800’s.
So eliminate socialism in this country and that wouldn’t be a problem.
Read Atlas Shrugged.
A shallower and less thought over model for society was never written. Let’s have you fail in your capitalistic enterprise, with no money, debt and a hungry family.
You’d naturally file for unemployment and food stamps, but wait, Ayn Rand says these do not fit in her model. Good luck.
Idiot.
There was this noble idea of charities, family, church, etc. before the government stepped in back in the 1960s and created a mandatory nanny state, funded with my tax money whether I liked it or not.
People the world over (esp. Americans) have proven time and again that they’ll support private entities which help the less-fortunate. Look at the tsunami in SE Asia. Over a half billion dollars donated by the U.S. private sector (http://en.wikip...hquake#Americas). Look at the aftermath of Katrina. Who sent in funds and people to help? Primarily the church, if you’ve been back to New Orleans since FEMA left…mission groups and other church-related organizations are the ones there rebuilding and still cleaning up.
Putting the proverbial gun to my head in the form of laws & taxation isn’t the solution to creating a social safety net. Getting out of the way so people can fail (and excel) at what they’re best at – with a social safety net provided by private charities – is the only just society.
>>Read Atlas Shrugged.
Phil:
I truly hope you’re no older than 18. BTW Mr. Greenspan is an avid fan of the book too. Makes you think doesn’t it ?
if the US education system was working in the first place logically America would not have all the problems it does…..right?. maybe we need to stop using “education” as a scapegoat and focus on creating more “opportunity” and “execution”. right now education alone is not helping anyone.
Your comment about how the EU’s ‘borderless-ness’ is so great, is really breathtakingly ignorant. The EU was modeled after the US where there are no formalities for moving between its 50 states, you know?
Do you really not know about the ‘rights, privileges and DUTIES’ of citizenship such as taxation and voting?
Why do you suppose so many people want to emigrate to the US but not to, say Albania or Haiti?
Actually, India would be a closer example – each state speaks a different language, has different culture, food, etc. Compared to India and the EU, the US is depressingly homogenous.
People want to work where the rewards are highest. Very few immigrants I know come to America for “freedom” – they just come to work and make money.
You are absolutely right. India is a lot more heterogenous than probably many countries. And inspite of that, Indians are considered to be non tolerant towards race and particularly religion.
It was easier for me to get the US visa and travel to the US than Europe (Schengen visa). I’m going tomorrow to apply for a UK visa, let’s see how that goes.
This is so true! And sad. I guess survival of the fittest/natural selection applies here as well. If xenophobes want to take their country down with ‘em, so be it.
Being about to graduate with a phd and starting my own company, the biggest hurdle more than anything for me is to figure out a way to stay in us. I have seriously started considering going back. I wish something like founders visa pg talked about is implemented or obtaining a working visa with a phd in STM is made easier.
I agree with you that the US, and all nations, should reward non-citizens who build the country by founding socially good businesses.
By socially good, I mean businesses that are lucrative and create employment, but are not, for example, drug dealing or people trafficking.
I think there are processes in place for this purpose that are not working very well, such as sponsorships and the Green Card system.
Let’s hear more about that “phd” Ujjwal gupta. Is it real, or is it part of another “fake resume” that is being conconcted to inflate your credentials? Let’s hear the details. i will give you time to go steal someone else’s resume so you can can up with the “story”…
Attacks of a personal nature do not bode well. What’s your problem? Why are you assuming that every resume is fake? Do you think that such fake resumes can create such massive immigration or inclination? Is everybody else just plain dumb? All the GEs, MSFTs, Googles, Yahoos – are they so just stupid to hire Indians AND set up huge development shops in India? Shall we in India ask these companies to get the hell out of India? Are all those people employed there getting into these AMERICAN companies with fake resumes? Are these AMERICANs so dumb that they cannot see in the interviews that these resumes are fake? Are they so stupid that they cannot see after a person is employed that the resume was a total rip off – helped by someone like you? You are insulting your own intelligence by sending in blanket statements. There could be one off incidences that game the system (Bernie Madoff anyone?) but it cannot be generalized. Please – go get your facts – take a trip to Bangalore and see for yourself where Silicon Valley really exists. Go to Sand Hill Road where all the VCs sit and just count how many are immigrants (Indian, Chinese and from other parts of the world) and how many are Americans. Go now and get rid of your ill informed hatred. You will be surprised….
I’m a High School Senior (been living in America for 6 years now). Though my parents are legal immigrants, the Green Card process is a bitch for Indians, so I’m left without Green Card (if I don’t get it through my parents by the time I’m 21, I have to start all over again through a H1B). I’m strongly considering either going to college elsewhere or getting my BA/BS/w.e and going to India and starting a company.
Thats ok, there are already too many Indians anyway here in US
If one ever offers you a job, you now have to say no.
Agreed, go elsewere
Plenty of xenophobic assholes too, it seems!
Bet that’s what the Iraqis are sayin about Americans..:-)
My experience has been that most foreign graduate students who obtain admission to US graduate programs in engineering and science obtain full financial support through research grants and tuition credits. They do not bring money to the institutions. US graduate schools cannot find enough qualified US citizens to fill the slots so they need to recruit abroad. Often foreign students use a few years in a graduate program to establish residency in the US at which point they drop their studies and take paying jobs here. It may be that US law have tightened up on this problem. But many faculty memebers I know, think twice about taking on foreign grad students that are very likely to drop the program halfway through.
Good comment that applies to many, many, but not ALL foreign students. I have witnessed exactly what you describe throughout my years as a student and working in universities.
It is possible that there might be some cases.
As far as I know, having spent time in the Grad school, the reality is that most of the foreign students who get the financial aid in the form of Teaching assistantship or Research assistantship are very bright and hardworking. The assistantship that they get is earned on the basis of performance in the school (and/or GRE). I have never seen a hard working and intelligent student like that take off without finishing at least the Master’s degree.
That perhaps was the case in the 1990s. You can rest assured that funding has dried up and people are paying up, in full. Stupid, you might say, but the universities love it.
Having been through a grad program myself, I can tell you that there are are several departments propped up by foreign student tuition alone.
> often foreign students use a few years in a graduate program to establish residency in the US
Nonsense. Those grad students are all admitted on student visas (mostly F, some J), which are all non-resident visas by definition. You cannot establish residency for immigration purposes that way.
BTW international students are NOT eligible for government-funded student loans or work study programs so they DO have to pay tuition in full (unless they were accepted on scholarship).
H1Bs are not reserved for the tech set in Silicon Valley or Indian/Chinese professionals.
If you’re American and can’t find work where you live, you can take a page from foreigners and find work abroad where there are still jobs. Maybe then you’d have more respect for people trying to make a living and life in an land.
And why do you think American Universities are hosting road shows and exhibitions in India and spending lavishly on their marketing efforts? Trust me, there are at least 5 US universities presenting their courses every day in Mumbai during peak admission seasons – Dec – Mar each year.
As a former, foreign graduate student, I’d like to say that Steven Oracle is wrong. Graduate assistantships pay for work done by the student. Research assistantships help professors get grants, i.e. bring in money for the university. Foreign graduate students are considered to be non-resident, and pay higher taxes on their incomes. They cannot use their time in school to establish residency. To my knowledge, most foreign graduate students do graduate; the only student in my program who did not graduate was an American. If foreign students do not graduate, they are not eligible for the one year practical training after graduation, so most try their best to graduate.
@Steven Oracle::please please get your facts straight…do you even know how much you are expected to score on your GRE if you have any chance at all of a scholarship or being an RA…it’s ridiculous…also “they are more likely to drop out of the program halfway”…this is complete nonsense…..an education in the US is an investment for the entire family with the exorbitant fees for the foreign students…students have a major responsibilty and a lot of loans to pay back….they don’t simply “drop out halfway”…..and also its not ONLY because indians or the chinese for that matter accept low paying jobs but are recruited because they are actually GOOD at their job…(not saying the Americans are not)…but the criteria is not always the lower salary
It is heart breaking how messed up our immigration policy is. Under Obama, the Unions and all those opposed to immigration reform are even more powerful and any hope of attracting and keeping the best and brightest minds in the world is fading faster than even under Bush – and thats one heck of an accomplishment for Obama administration.
So you’re saying in the scant few months (7 months) that Obama has been president the world has gone to crap? That’s one hell of a claim.
Do not engage his type. Cancer, socialism, leaky faucets, Twitter downtimes – all Obama’s fault.
On a separate note, great column Sarah.
God forbid anyone question your holy savior Obama.
No Mike, God forbid anyone throw rubbish claims at people in the hope that they will be accepted as logical arguments.
plz read my comment above, I didnt say he created the problems, I am saying there are no signs he will fix given the strong power unionized labor enjoys in white house. 7 month is not enough to blame him for everything but it certainly is enough to see the direction he has taken and it is not the direction of solving the problems – only worsening them. he has not shown the strength to challenge status quo, he has only invited few more parties to the table to loot America and whats good for our nation.
plz read my comment above, I didnt say he created the problems, I am saying there are no signs he will fix given the strong power unionized labor enjoys in white house. 7 month is not enough to blame him for everything but it certainly is enough to see the direction he has taken and it is not the direction of solving the problems – only worsening them. he has not shown the strength to challenge status quo, he has only invited few more parties to the table to loot America and AMerican tax payers.
http://www.clasilistados.ca
I dont think america will importance of immigrant skilled workers now… they need a blow from developing countries before they open their eyes…
Sarah:
Want me to send you one of the plates? Still have both of them…
Needless to say my mind short-circuited a little when I saw my CA plat on TC this morning….
smp
Well don’t be too dismal. Think this way, other parts of the world also can use bright minds, not just US. This might also help to make the world flat? Number 1 doesn’t last forever. Without a sound immigration reform, it will be for US to lose it soon. The thinking behind current one is 19th century-ish.
I think you have a point there. It might not be good for US in general, and Silicon Valley in particular. But it does not mean that those innovations wont see the light. They will just start and grow elsewhere. Especially, in web services, now most of the big successes of the Silicon Valley could be done pretty much anywhere (if it is not the case today, it will be tomorrow with datacenters being created on every continent). Maybe the next Facebook will come from China, India or Philippines. The cost to start web companies drops to a point where it can be start pretty much anywhere as long as you find educated employees. And the market is virtually huge, even if you start it from tiny country. There is less and less reasons to fight and establish your startup in US. The only one I can see today, is investment. But since price to bootstrap a company is falling, it becomes less an issue. If (I should say “when”) the next Facebook will show up in a different country than US, the wealth will be distributed a bit differently.
I agree with the article the current US immigration policy does not help at all to reverse or at least slow down the process.
Immigration restrictions aren’t the reason for the decline, it’s the fact that the #1 provider of international student loans, Citi, cut their international student loan program. So if you can’t afford to pay for your education and you’re from abroad, you don’t go to grad school. Simple as that. It’s easy to blame “xenophobia”, but it’s just not realistic.
I agree about the student loans and the opportunity to work here WHILE in school. Not just Citi but many, many banks, the universities themselves, grants, fellowships… As for ‘US education is toooo expensive that it’s unfair,’ if it’s so bad, why do so many people want it?
I think people still wanted US education, despite the cost, because they had more chance to stay after and get a high paid job. Since both “stay in US” and “high paid job” are in jeopardy now, thanks respectively to US immigration policy and economic downturn, students are thinking twice now.
And like the article says, less students from abroad will have a serious impact for the US economy in the near future, if last too long.
Jake Dwyer, international students do not get to apply for Citi’s loans because they are not US residents and do not have credit. Their fees are financed either through some sort of assistantship or money from their home country, where interest rates CAN be in double digits.
Funny that your paragraph on the American Dream is almost word-for-word what Michael Keaton’s character says in Gung Ho, circa 1986. Some things never change… ! Remember the 80s and the “Japanese invasion”?
And the Japanese pretty much owns our auto industry now. The concern panned out, but it was misguided. People focused too much on keeping foreign automakers out rather than improving domestic products.
Japanese don’t own the US auto industry. They just sell more nippon cars than american ones in USA
That’s what I meant.
the H1B quote is still not filled. 65k, same as last year and they still have slots. The number of green card applications are down as well.
Really can’t justify H1B’s with 10% unemployment
When I applied 2 years ago the quote was filled the very first day they started receiving the applications.
The unemployment % argument is also a huge bs.
10% unemployment, so what? most of those unemployed people aren’t enough skilled for the tech industry.
+100
Davide, your right, but I don’t know if it matters. I did some research on it a couple of months ago and at that time it broke down to 4.1% for skilled/degreed and 10.8% for minimum wage / non-skilled.
I have had a little trouble finding good folks, but no problem finding not so good folks.
The 10% is NOT BS. Santa Clara County, CA, which covers most of what’s known as “Silicon Valley”, is pushing 12% unemployment. And that number – nearly 1 in 8 – does not include people like me… college grads who got laid off in the post-9/11 collapse and are now working in retail, because the unemployment has long since run out.
Part of the problem here is in the CA government; their policies and taxation are becoming downright hostile towards new startups. The startups are taking their money (and jobs) elsewhere.
I agree that the State of California can do much, much more to encourage business in this state.
Your argument is bullshit. There are unemployed tech folks all over the place. No one is suggesting that companies try to fill tech jobs with unemployed plumbers.
Most of that 10% of unemployed people is not competing for the same jobs as the recent PhD foreign graduates… so, your argument does not make sense…
If 1/4 of start-ups are created by foreigners, that MAKES jobs and REDUCES unemployment.
Green card apps are down because more countries have been added to the blacklist (blacklist = countries who have sent too many people in the last 5 (?) years).
Where’s the quote info available?
http://2001-200...sept/110467.htm
For DV-2010, natives of the following countries are not eligible to apply because the countries sent a total of more than 50,000 immigrants to the U.S. in the previous five years:
BRAZIL, CANADA, CHINA (mainland-born), COLOMBIA, DOMINICAN REPUBLIC, ECUADOR, EL SALVADOR, GUATEMALA, HAITI, INDIA, JAMAICA, MEXICO, PAKISTAN, PHILIPPINES, PERU, POLAND, SOUTH KOREA, UNITED KINGDOM (except Northern Ireland) and its dependent territories, and VIETNAM.
That’s quite scandalous.
Green cards should be stronger to get for them, but not banned.
This policy don’t have any empathy for foreigners. I understand that USA cannot allow too much non qualified people to work, but why ban a whole country ?
That’s from the 2010 Diversity Visa Lottery Program AKA the ‘green card lottery’ and is unrelated to green card applications based on skill.
The lottery program exists to add diversity to the country from other places around the world where people haven’t already qualified through other visa types, hence it excludes those countries that have already countributed otherwise.
Good clarification, thank you.
But this is just the “Diversity Lottery”, it does not mean that people on this “black-list” can not get a Green Card following the regular process.
Don’t mix the two.
There are some issues with per country “caps” in the employment-based green card process as well though. Each country is capped at 7.5% of the total every year – this of course is in no way reflective of the % of the world population that comes from China and India, hence the massive backlog for applicants from these two countries. Seems somewhat analogous to the electoral college system, or each state having two senators regardless of population etc.
“You know that American dream and American spirit of innovation we always talk about? Turns out, the bulk of it was built by people who came to America from somewhere else, not people born American.” – WHAT A REVELATION, almost a DISCOVERY! hehe. How old are you?
Also, think about it this way: WHO NEEDS this bunch of arrogant cronies calling themself ‘SV’ who have cashed out the ‘American Dream’ that you are talking about? That’s how it is in the reality. Not – why this, why that? Lou Dobbs is this that. The real question is: who needs YOU, the SV people full of BS?
Think about it carefully and you will know the future.
Hello Alex!
Could you please Endeavour to express yourself in a cohesive manner? Your English lacks basic understanding.
Thanks
I understood him.
me too.
I didn’t
Sure ispy, you understood him and realized that the Intel/AMD powered computer you were typing on using a USB (look up inventors) connected keyboard staring at a screen showing you a TechCrunch article would exist even without SV and all its BS.
I understood you. Who needs SV? US needs it badly. It is important for the US to see Silicon Valley thriving again. SV is a very important economic engine for the US.
RJ, Really? I mean… REALLY? 10billion something a year in ‘investments’ on the scale of trillions of the rest of the economy? It’s NEGLIGIBLE, RJ.
Numbers! Numbers! Never forget about the numbers.
Also, I didn’t say that nobody needs SV. I said: nobody wants to deal with the people who call themself ‘SV’ – the professional BStters and cronies trying to ‘rule’ it from behind the scenes.
I’m a French entrepreneur with PhD education level and my last company has been acquired by a US company. Last year, they asked me to move to the US, where I got a L1 visa. Few months after that I have been laid-off. I’d like to stay in the US but it is almost impossible. Most jobs in the DC area require US citizenship, even when not related to Defense, and in other locations most companies say they won’t sponsor a visa. They just don’t want to deal with the complexities and cost of immigration process.
I would have liked the opportunity to start a new business here, grow it and hire people, but I have just not enough time to complete the whole visa process to do it. My current visa will expire in few days and I have to go back in Europe.
Feel your pain, but they should be giving the job to the unemployed American. I am sure you would say the same thing if you couldn’t find jobs in France because all the Moroccon’s took them.
Xenophobic, anonymous cowards may leave as much bile in the comments as they want: The reality is one out of every four tech companies
Interesting comments Sarah – You must be filled with quite a bit of content and anger.
Common sense ( which American Youth lack severely) is an important ingredient. The youth of America is mostly interested becoming an American Idol contestant, showcasing there dancing skills, sitting on the sofa playing there Playstation, Xbox or talking on there cell phone etc. No motivation or common sense. They instead blame the xenophobes?? for there own failures and incompetentcy.
I’m sorry your parents shoved Ritalin and Adderall down your throat to make you walk around in a zombie-like world and a deep haze but get a set of balls and take a stand and stop blaming other people for your pathetic existence.
Perhaps you’d like to look up Sarah’s credentials
There is no reality that one in four companies are started by immigrants, no proof. That is just propaganda made up by the likes of the faker Vivek Wadhwa. Get real facts, real figures and real proof when you spew your anti-American propaganda.
Where are your facts and figures? Sarah is willing to back up her claims, I’d imagine.
Who’s really spewing propaganda?
You don’t need facts, you’ve got your position and you will ignore anything that disputes it.
25.3%:
http://www.duke...ineerstudy.html
The study goes on to say that they’ve created 450,000 jobs. Outstanding. But that is total (worldwide) employment. How many jobs were in the U.S? Maybe 200-300K?
Meanwhile, how many H1B, L1, E3, TN1, etc immigrants has there been over the past decade? I’d guess a few million (recall that the H1B quota was much higher in the first half of the decade, and even now there are multiple loopholes in the H1B cap).
If we are losing 10 or more jobs for every 1 that is created, that doesn’t sound like a very good deal to me…
Also, just because there was at least 1 immigrant founder in these companies, one cannot logically deduce that none of these companies would not have been founded absent those founders.
You think older people have more common sense? Ie buying houses and maxing out their credit?
Wow.
Calm down.
The decrease in students coming to the US is good. It is good for other nations, it is good for countries of origin, it is good for the global community. It is an indication that the rest of the world is becoming more attractive, or more livable. This is what we want to encourage. Economic growth elsewhere, the exposure to more immigrants elsewhere, these are all things that contribute to global peace and prosperity.
“We have no birthright or natural lock on these things.”
That statement is absolutely correct! Why should all tech companies be founded in the USA? Do other countries not deserve their measure of happiness?
Look, I’m a patriotic American as well. That said, I do keep an open mind. I trained at Quantico, but I also did undergrad at the University of Havana in Cuba. I am a black man from a small town called Racine, Wisconsin. Which hosted a small community of runaways as it served as a convenient port city for the transport by water of runaways to Canada. But I also lived in Ningbo for a while, Tokyo for even longer, and have even done my share of time in Africa. I’ve taught at the University of Wisconsin, but I also did graduate work at the Sorbonne. I speak Standard English and Ebonics, but also Spanish, French and Chinese. My roots run deep here. A good deal more deep than most Americans I’d wager. That said I have seen that others can be given their due.
Perhaps it is time for promising young Americans to do the traveling. I trained at Quantico, but I also did undergrad at the University of Havana in Cuba, and some graduate work at the U Tokyo and the Sorbonne. Not to mention living in Ningbo for a while.
To my mind, your wish for a world where all of the world’s brightest minds come to, say, Silicon Valley, is a desire derived of the same sort of hegemonic jingoism that you seem to be decrying.
“Perhaps it is time for promising young Americans to do the traveling.”
Promising young Americans are poor and can’t afford to travel, and receive no education on saving an investment to help them rise above their situation.
*and investment
Typos are awesome.
Do you think that foreigners get more help ?
This said, I agree with cleo. Americans don’t come abroad enough. All the graduate schools and universities in the world tries to get exchanges programs with others countries, and it’s very difficult to find americans or english students to come abroad.
I guess it’s because of the language. Maybe american don’t bother enough with foreign languages since they naturally speaks the international one.
My brother went to graduate school in Florence, Italy for a semester. He could not live on-campus, and had to get an apartment. All of the American students were spread throughout Florence. Why? A building full of American students was considered a terrorist target.
It is lie that Americans don’t study foreign languages. The figures are that hundreds of thousands of American students DO study foreign language. Enough with the anti-American student myths. If you want a better example, take a large percentage of the Indian students (who have taken over some university departments like a mafia) and study their disdain for speaking a brand of English so horrible that they cannot be understood by the customers they want to reach in the United States.
Cut out the myths!
hundreds of thousands? cute. and yes, they take it in school – how many of them do speak that on a regular basis after school?
all german’s do get at least four years of english, middle school gets at lest 6 years in englisch and 4 in a second, higher school at least 7 years in english, most of them choose til finish making that a 9 year experience plus at least 5 years in the second language and can have a third.
similar in other european countries.
98% from commentators at TC alone who are foreign are fluent in english. As a second language. Are they accent free? most of them not, no. does it matter in their work? depends.
the smaller the country, the more likely it is that they are fluent in 2 languages or more besides their mother tongue.
matter of fact is, you can immediately feel if a company has incorporated ‘outsiders’. it starts with little things and goes up to big things.
go figure.
Most Indians can speak more than one language.
There were more than 1652 languages spoken in India as per the 1961 census. As per the 2001 census 29 languages were spoken by more than a million people. Dialects may change every 100 km or less.
Unfortunately English, spoken the American way, is the gold standard for you. Too bad.
But then it’s not your fault. When you live in a homogeneous society you tend to be less tolerant towards others. Specially the ones who do not look like you.
Because promising young Chinese who travelled to US were not poor. The rest of the world did it, young Americans could do it, and I agree should do it more than they do now.
i agree – young americans should go to where the jobs are instead of whining about no jobs at home and asking for what amounts to a government supported buffer against competition. The world needs to reduce barriers to such competition and force people to compete to raise everyone’s standards. Young americans are more interested in partying on Fri/Sat than working in labs…are you surprised they are losing out to foreign born students who are willing to work harder?
An interesting and valid point but one that misses the purposes of the OP. The fact that the US has always been an integral point of innovation and foreign direct investment – something that has driven our ability to be a world leader and maintain the growth that we all expect has always depended on innovation here, foreign direct investment into the US, and immigration.
You’re talking about traveling to other countries as if it is some vacation – this won’t be about travel it will be about relocation to other countries, something that most Americans currently don’t want to do and most of our family dynamics and culture would have time adjusting to. It also means that our lifestyle will no longer be sustainable, our currency will lose value (and quickly) and we will soon find ourselves in a situation similar that of countries like Japan.
So while your point is certainly interesting, it doesn’t address the fact that our entire society and economy has been driven by courting and bringing in the best and brightest of the world into our little melting pot. When you break that cycle, you have to deal with ramifications that are far beyond simply having people go to other countries.
Well said, Gregory. You pretty much nailed it.
Increasing H1 visa is not the answer. I came to this country on an F1 (student) visa, got my Phd and it took me a few years to get my permanent residency and eventually the citizenship.
I think there should be a separate track for foreigners with an advanced degree from US universities to get their permanent residency. If some one has a PhD from an American University, that person should be able to sponsor himself/herself for permantent residency.
But in the last 20 years, the influx of H1 visa holders without a degree from American Univerosty has exploded. I don’t know what percentage, but I am sure more than 90% people on H1 visa in this country don’t have degree from an American University.
Lots of Indian companies have almost monopolozed the H1 visa and many are even abusing the system. Lots of h1 visa holders from India even have some dubious degree from India. The have 3 months of C# or PHP training and some how manage to come to this country using an H1 visa.
To extract the cream of the crops, only people with degrees from Amercian Univerisities should be given fast track admission to permannaet residency.
It is not brainer solutions but most politicans and reported have no clue as to the how H1 visa works.
This was done with the introduction of a special quota of visas for American Grad School students (international, of course)
@dotcomnote Are you trying to say that India Universities are not in par with American Universities ? That’s ridiculous !
So you are saying that a graduate from University of Phoenix should get a Green Card faster than a graduate from, say, Cambridge or IITs?
Whoops, slipped up cutting the final draft of my comment. But you get the point.
The people who have problems with visas and etc.. is not a majority of the cases – the thing is that if you really want to be in america – you can and will.
For the majority, this has nothing to do with policy – It is the attitude and the culture that has become problematic in the last 10 years in America – before that Americans used to do their jobs but now they do not have the necessary knowledge nor the discipline anymore.
Now, companies burden foreign workers with not only with denying intellectually stimulating and money making prospects but also with demanding that their own jobs that they are no longer able to effectively approach, should be done by the foreigners.
The malicious Xenophobia only adds to the lowering of the quality of life that foreign I.T. workers are faced with – what the american public does not realize is that out of all the unemployed only about 6-7% are experienced enough to take on the jobs of the near future nicely. Most of the unemployed are xenophobic ex-Bush-voters, hicks from the rural states etc.. totally untrained for the job at hand.
As more people move South in the States, and more children grow up with ineffective education there (and elsewhere) – less and less americans are actually doing things right in their workplace and more/more depending on a few foreign star talents to be the stars of the company/department.
Of course there is a lot of envy and feuds because people believe others are too blame for their intellectual incapacity and laziness.
“The people who have problems with visas and etc.. is not a majority of the cases – the thing is that if you really want to be in america – you can and will.”
How? By doing further studies only because the F1 student visa is easier to achieve than H1B?
I call bullshit, I have been searching for a job for the past 5 months and I know what the situation is.
One does not represent the whole. I empathize with your situation, BUT this will not alter the fact that the majority of the unemployed can in no way be employed in the tech sector. Majority, this leaves some room for people that could be employed but are unfortunately still looking for jobs.
“The people who have problems with visas and etc.. is not a majority of the cases – the thing is that if you really want to be in america – you can and will.”
I used to think that. From personal experience I know it is not true. If you have a PhD and really want to stay in the country, and the company that wants to hire you really needs your expertise and wants you to stay, in the end it doesn’t come down to yours or your company’s desire. It’s all a matter of timing and visa deadlines.
I don’t know what the majority of people face, but in my experience it has been a constant battle with policy while the attitude of everyone around me has been more than willing to help.
So would mentioning that “the report found a 4% increase in international applications” (from your linked BW article) have gotten in the way of your Chicken Little reporting?
You anonymous coward, you’re doing the same Fox News style thing that you’re accusing Sarah of. Here is the full sentence from that BW article. Read it again, I’m not going to spell it out for you:
“Though the report found a 4% increase in international applications, the total number of international applications received this year is still below 2003 application levels at many of the 253 schools that responded to the survey. “
You are overemphasising the political policies and ignoring the economic incentives and disincentives. Sure the political polices make it a little harder but improving economies in other places are making those places more attractive so the decrease in incoming smart immigrants is partly due to that.
David,
The point being made here is that, do you want to risk reducing the inflow of talent and ideas?
While I agree with the sentiment of the article, the fact is the H1b program isn’t used to bring in PhDs and innovators but rather to bring in barely above indentured servants to work for cheap. The program is rife with abuses.
Also your point would be better made if you showed stats on european schools showing an increase in enrollment.
I suspect this has to do more with schools improving in countries like China and India and students wanting to be where the growth is. No change in the H1b program can counter that.
Actually if you talk to the people who are looking to obtain an H1B, they will tell you otherwise. Ask me.
Not true. Same visa is used for both. That’s the crux of the problem, imho.
There IS abuse, but in countering abuse you must tread carefully. Removing abuse of the program without hampering the inflow of the cream of the crop that you care about is the key.
What? What are you basing this on – certainly hasn’t been even slightly close to my experience, having worked at several tech companies (HP/Amzn/Apple and some smaller ones). It was ALWAYS about getting the most talented people, and never about what they cost.
Again Good One – You are part of the problem based on your comments which blame other people. Blaming people from the South and uneducated etc.
Stop hating people who have different views from your own and attempt to make a difference in your life.
Create something you can be proud of and don’t blame other folks for your issues and incompetency.
I don’t see how anyone was blaming anyone for their own personal problems. The blame was directed at people who were acting against the interests of maintaining the technological and economic leadership of the US.
Curious. What are the European schools they’re starting to go to? Also, do the top US Schools have issues? I’m thinking like top 10 engineering schools?
http://www.traderbots.com
The EU school system is a whole new issue and I do not actually know the current directions. But my notes about it is that the system in Europe combines British, German, Swedish, Swiss, French, Italian and other academic systems. Most of them are set-up for within-EU students, but a lot of international studies take place. (e.g. it has been flooded with Asian and border-EU for ages and will continue to)
That point aside, I know that some of them have tracks for PhD students – Britain, Germany, Austria, Sweden and Swiss have measures in place. I do not know about the other member states.
Aside note: jobs growth in the EU has been relatively slow due to various factors.
INSEAD, Rotterdam School of Management, etc. There are too many good ones to list.
Good. Finally bright people serve and enrich their own countries not fatass Americans.
Where to start with this nonsense..I know, lets outsource TechCrunch bloggers to Mumbai! Or we could fire all the American bloggers and replace them with cheaper Indian bloggers with no benefits who won’t ever complain about anything. Can’t physically find enough American bloggers anyway.
Because that is what corporations in the U.S. are actually doing. It’s a lie that you are perpetuating that there are not enough US workers. Pretty stupid of you to say such a thing in a time of 15% real unemployment.
You own an apology to readers for comparing them to Lou Dobbs and his followers. I have payed taxes all my life, been wounded in combat while in the Marines, went to school and worked full time at a top university to get my CS degree and I see jobs being pawned off to the lowest bidder by people who have contributed nothing to this country. Lets all join hands in a race to the bottom.
Your snarky pre-emptive comment about anonymous posters is pathetic. This site lives off of anonymous posters and you would have to be an idiot to post your real name in the open on the internet.
Of course this is Tech Crunch so any comments you don’t like will be deleted.
My comment to the story about how the App Store reviews were gamed applies here as well. Corporations game the system all the time. They make perfunctory postings of job openings with impossible requirements so they can later claim with a straight face that there were “no qualified Americans” for these job openings, so they can bring in H-1Bs for less money.
If I had my druthers, the rule would be simple: Not one engineering H1-B visa issued as long as any American engineers are out of work. NOT ONE. We need to be expending American resources on American jobs, not catering to the kind of corporate greed and corner-cutting that has gotten us to this point.
No American company allowed to do business anywhere else in the world. That includes software cos, consulting cos and any other thing that America is remotely associated with.
H1-Bs do not earn less money. In fact, a lot of times….never mind.
“If I had my druthers, the rule would be simple: Not one engineering H1-B visa issued as long as any American engineers are out of work. NOT ONE.” Erbo, I totally agree!!
@ERBO,
If the US stop giving H1-B visas, the work simply moves to other conuntries.
It is not just the # of H1-B visas that is the problem (in fact a good number are still unused) but the rules make it a big hassle for companies to apply for them. So most legitimate comapnies do not bother with them anymore. They simply send the work to other countries. This sadly adds to the unemployment not help it.
@ERBO
“…impossible requirements so they can later claim with a straight face that there were “no qualified Americans” for these job openings, so they can bring in H-1Bs for less money.”
If the requirements were impossible, how are they able to fill the position with H1B. Just because we Americans can’t do it, does not mean it is impossible. It is made possible by H1B workers.
H1B workers get paid less….hahaha…you obviously don’t have any knowledge in this. Do your research first. H1B workers, get paid at least the same amount or more. In fact, the cost is a lot more if you include all the legal fees companies have to go through to get a H1B worker. This is an old argument that has been debunked so many times.
umm… A decade ago.. (seems so far away doesn’t it). America was trying to pry open markets for US firms. The shoe, my dear friend is on the other foot. Suck it up and take it like a man.
I guess that’s another way to look at it, not going to be easy to swallow.
free markets aren’t free when you’re the one losing to the competition
I too am an Marine vet and immigrant to boot. I came here at 4 and got my citizenship after 2 years. I fought for this country, worked my way through night-school, and now get the honor seeing my wages cut by a third as a bunch low-wage, low-skill dowry dogs flood the I.T. market.
Thanks for throwing Americans under the bus, Ms. Lacy. Their will be retribution for shills like you. When displaced American techies get done with you, you will be lucky to get a job writing copy for the PennySaver.
ah..the easy excuse of bitter Americans…Brand all H1Bs as low paid servants. Get a grip!
Instead of railing against Lou Dobbs and people posting comments, not one mention of the people that actually make policy. That elephant in the room; the Obama administration. Maybe the author is part of the problem.
Obama has not even begun yet but Dobbs will continue to hammer out his own version of what the policy should be. At the moment, you’ve got to admit that Immigration reform, though important will come after there is some stability.
Interesting. One point being made is that the world as a whole is improving and a lot of other places are becoming more livable.
While I agree with that, the visa hurdle is a big pain to have to work through. I am under a PhD program now and upon finishing it, I know that a lot of doors will be open to me – back to the EU or south-east Asia. It is the USA that I would still have to put effort to stay in.
This is very sad to read. London, where I work is a sort of Silicon Valley expanded many times over – where skilled foreign work is concerned. Britain (even more than the US) is service economy oriented and despite howls from the anti-immigration brigade London would fall off the world map without the talent coming in.
I hope that the US fixes this fast.
As long as we don’t let those fooking prawns here, we’ll be fine.
-mnu
hahhaha
It’s ‘vokking’; Afrikaans hardens W -> V, and V -> F. ‘Fooking’ is like with a Scottish accent or something.
Let’s invest more in our own educational systems, from elementary school through college, and stop lamenting the plight of third world people who want to come here. And that’s not an isolationist stance, that’s just practical. The idea that a reduction in H1-B visas is “silicon valley’s worst nightmare” is absurd. There is plenty of talent in the US. Tech companies only like the H1-B visa workers because they can pay them less and lock them for years while stringing them along on the promise of helping them get a green card.
100% true
Do not worry. I think this effect is rather due to the crisis than anything else. As long as Stanford remains such an awesome university there will be talent in the Valley.
And when other countries dvelop universities just as good as Stanford?
When there will be palm trees in London or Paris maybe…
Harry,
London and Paris school are no worse than that of Stanford. Sandy is talking about India and China universities that will catch up. In fact, I am pretty sure that many of them already did.
Other than a handful of top schools, American universities are lame. Grade inflation and an overly lax admission process makes it so easy to get a degree that the degree ends up being worth little.
That’s true in most other countries.
“Xenophobia”, you guys really need to get a different stick! The truth is the US economy will not skip a beat if the H1B visa is abolished. The economic forces of Supply and Demand will kick in. The average tech workers salary will increase (short term). Then more US citizens will take Technology related studies and the salary structure will find equilibrium. Those are the facts!
or… the jobs will shift abroad.
especially when the funny money (yes, I mean the US dollar) has no meaning anymore.
That’s already happening, and it’s due more to lower overseas salaries and stupid U.S tax laws (which discourage U.S. corporations from repatriating overseas profits) than it does the H1B.
That will happen but you won’t be happy with the time horizon. Perhaps your kids will be happy, the solution has to be two pronged, the longer term effort being to improve education for American residents so that there are better prepared in the future and also a short term limited time balancing act to fulfill near term demand.
Think through it for a second.
I have thought about it, why do you think all those US kids (very smart) from Ivy League schools take up finance? It’s the money. Put money into tech salaries and keep the career path stable and you’ll get things like limitless power, cure for cancer, computers that make a goggle calculation a second. The fact is the US doesn’t need a H1B visas. Basically most H1B visa holders are the 21 century equivalent of the 18 century Chinese coolies building the new high tech rail systems.
And creating a talent shortage (even if only in the short term) is good for companies/employers how? Where will they come up with the money to pay these supposed higher wages? What will be the impact of these higher costs on their prices/market competitiveness? What will that do to the industry? Your finance example is hardly applicable because there is no real threat to Wall Street from abroad. That’s not true in tech. Just thinking through one side of the problem (I wants more $s, send home foreigners, yes please) doesn’t mean you’ve thought the WHOLE thing through.
even if that were true. So what? You get a shiny set of rails and they get to stay there. In maybe a hundered years. America will not be white, but brown and yellow. Like London, or Toronto or Vancouver. You get my drift…
Reverse colonisation is here…
Chinese students come here, take up the spot of Americans, and then they go back and develop weapons and businesses to fight Americans.
WAKE UP, AMERICANS!
I hope that was ironic
hhahahahahahahahahah. i wouldn;t count on him noticing.
Hey if you’ve got $500k you can just “invest” with the EB-5 program. You’re making an investment into the company that is sponsoring you. This will be wildly abused soon.
abused? you get 500k investment in startups, how many people in the world do you think can do this?
A lot changed in the last 5 years. When i went home(inidia) last year, i heard lot of people are going to CHINA to do their masters both Medical and Engineering.
Few people are coming to the states, people who, after their masters are looking for a job for 6 months to 8 months and going back to india. I am not telling US is bad, but NOT because of the lack of opportunities because of some VISA issues or OPT issues.
Education and technical talent is the key to any country.
Would like to see WHAT MIKE THINKS ABOUT THIS. There were nice posts written on TC in the past about H1B…
Nice post .. keep it up..
cheers, Nag
“If America won’t allow a PhD just trained in our top schools to work here and contribute to the economy—why come here and take on the student loans to begin with?”
Can foreign students take out student loans? My understanding is that they are not eligible.
Ken,
The loans are taken from family, home country lenders, basically any source of a loan they can find.
I dont think MS and PhD should even be a criteria in immigration to a country where good number of the top tech folks dont even have a BS.
Instead, immigration should be based on how big of a paycheck you can get. Current system of immigration focuses the other way round – immigrants cannot leave their employers since their visas are tied to the very same employers. All this leads to is lower and stagnant wages for visa workers. Current and very strong perception in the immigrant market is that being on a visa is just another form of slavery. As compared to that, if you can be free and earn good deal of money in your home country, why even bother becoming a slave. And this opinion came about 3-5 years back, took time to percolate, and is now showing it’s biggest impact that you can see from the student immigration numbers from India.
Personally, i have just stopped recommending people to come to US. Too much of a hassle to screw your career.
We’re only shooting ourselves in the foot by refusing to fix our broken immigration system.
Sarah,
You should be looking at the bright side of this issue.
Many companies would benefit from stronger data integrity, metric creation, monetization and revenue models. As the book closes on web 2.0, the lack of clear revenue models seems to indicate that the movement was too focused on tech for the sake of tech, just like the first Internet boom was too focused on business and equity valuations. Here’s hoping the next phase rewards and seeks leaders who understand that a balance between these two extremes is likely best for everyone.
Dalka… I don’t think your response is well directed in this post. What the heck are you talking about web2.0 monetization and metric in a post with immigration and xenophobia?? lol…
Let’s look at how this situation evolved from the lens of the Cold War. We wanted foreign students here to indoctrinate them in capitalistic free market philosophy to counter any move to Soviet universities and their communist point of view. But we didn’t want the students to stay – it was in the Governments best interest for them to go home and spread the word of US Style democracy. That foundation is still very much at play in the current structure.
rather presumptuous post actually. did not enjoy.
It isn’t meant for enjoyment, but for perusal on a subject.
The cost of paying each PhD student is more than $40K a year(tuition, scholarship, insurance, etc), so after five or six years total government spending of more than $200K on a talented fresh foreign PhD, what the current system does is simply to kick him/her out of the country if he/she couldn’t find a job within three months after graduation, which is becoming much more likely considering the fact that more and more companies are closing the door to those candidates who need H1B visa to work, due to the costly and painful process of working visa application.
The H1B visa system acted really stupidly, I would say.
Companies don’t hire foreign-born workers because they can’t find American workers – they do it because it’s cheaper. Anyone who says otherwise is lying. They want indentured servants. The only sensible H1B reform is a system where the visa holders are not locked in to their employer and are free to compete on the open job market with the rest of us. Then there would be no financial advantage to hiring an H1B worker.
If they did that I wonder how hard the companies would fight for visas then?
Yes. Cheap, is the other half of the equation nobody talked about.
By tying H1 with sponsorship, we create an artificially cheap workers. No good can come out of it. For the foreigners: they’re being exploited. For Americans: it’ll create a backlash. And for the firms: they’ll have 90% of turnover rate (most H1 holders will quit after they get their greencard in 3 years and take 30% pay-raise elsewhere). That’s one hell of an expensive employee training program.
Actually, it’s good for Lou Dobbs. He’s making one hell of a rating.
H1Bs cannot be legally paid less than an American worker. More often than not, they are paid slightly more. The cost of processing an H1B, getting into the whole lottery thing and then waiting literally half the year (because of the process) all adds up to a lot more than you can imagine. And then there is no actual guarantee that the person will actually join – they can refuse the offer or join someone else. So it is certainly not cheap and it is really painful.
The “prevailing wage” portion of the H-1B laws is a joke. There are large loopholes in this portion of the H-1B visa laws which allows employers to LEGALLY UNDERPAY H-1B beneficiaries. Moreover, it completely goes against the “free market” philosophy so many economists and corporate big-wigs love to parrot. Why not let the market dictate wages?
A gentleman named Vivek Wadhwa has long been a pioneer of change and innovation in the technology industry, and has founded 2 software companies, Seer Technologies and Relativity Technologies.
A check of the Dept. of Labor’s H-1B Web page shows that Wahdwa’s firm, Relativity Technologies, hired an H-1B Software Engineer for $44,144, and a Computer Programmer for $31,933.
Wahdwa believes that his hiring of the two H-1B programmers was justified on the grounds that they are brilliant people.
There is, however, the issue of how much to pay them. The one making $44K had a Master’s degree and had been working part-time for Wadhwa in Russia for the previous three years. Moreover, at the time Wadhwa hired this worker, the guy had been working for a Russian government joint venture company in Russia, developing telephone and networking systems, which is sophisticated work. And yet as an H-1B he was being paid less than a Bachelor’s graduate with no experience.
The reader’s reaction to all this is probably, “Well, THAT must be illegal. The salary Wadhwa paid this H-1B didn’t take into account the worker’s Master’s degree and his work experience.” But that is a perfect example of the myriad loopholes in the law.
The key point is that under the law, prevailing wage is defined by the JOB, not by the WORKER. If the job just requires a Bachelor’s degree, then an H-1B with a Master’s can legally be paid a Bachelor’s-level wage. What about this worker’s experience? Doesn’t that have to be taken into account? Well, first of all, the experience level DOL used at the time lumped everyone with 0-2 years of experience into one category, and this worker with three years of part-time and one year of full-time experience might fall into that category. But beyond that, again, keep in mind the prevailing wage is defined by the JOB, not by the WORKER. If this was an entry-level job, then the guy could legally be paid an entry-level salary.
Last but not least, what about the fact that the guy is supposedly brilliant? The guy got his Master’s degree at the age of 16! (He was only 17 at the time Wahdwa hired him.) On the open market, that would command a premium salary. But remember, this ain’t the open market. And there is nothing in the prevailing wage law about factoring in brilliance.
So, the bottom line is that Wadhwa got a brilliant worker with a Master’s degree and the equivalent of something like two years of experience for the price of a Bachelor’s graduate of average talent and no experience. And don’t forget, that isn’t even accounting wage savings an employer accrues by hiring H-1Bs–by hiring young H-1Bs, he avoids hiring the older, thus more expensive, Americans.
In other words, any way you slice it, Wadhwa got a great bargain–one that would have been impossible on the open market.
+1 Way to nail it.
Vincenzo I think you left out geographic location as a factor for prevailing wage.
My long rant…
http://thestate...nology-workers/
The H1B’s that I work with are totally getting ripped off. They get payed $50 or $60 per hour while their “sponsor” bills them out for $120 per hour. What can they do about it? Try to find another sponsor is about it. And they all, ALL of the sponsors, give the H1B guys the same raw deal. BTW – the client is getting ripped off too because these guys typically don’t have all the expertise as advertised. However, this is only my experience, and they do learn quickly.
H1B hires are damn expensive (forms, etc). And their salaries are hardly low.
How much does it cost to fill out forms? And the company’s HR usually don’t handle the H-1B visas, they hire lawyers especially for this.
And an average immigration lawyer would charge you $1000 per person, MAX, to process the full H-1B.
Compare that to the $5,000-$20,000 you can save per H1-B worker by paying him lower wages.
$1000 is quite low, especially for a first-time H1B hire.
Besides, H1Bs go into a lottery. You are being billed $1k for some low chance you’ll actually get the worker.
As an employer myself, I’m certainly not going to deal with a bunch of legal crap to try getting someone with an H1B; I’ll just go for the easier to hire citizen or permanent resident.
And again, H1Bs legally cannot be paid less than other employees at your firm.
http://www.h1ba...0Fees/ref/1186/
prices are here. Easily $4-5k per person.
You CANT pay him lower. The process requires a public forum and a vetting by immigration on the salary range. Each resume accepted/rejected must be presented with a rationale.
I wonder how they do that with day laborers. Oh wait they dont. And they get amnesty — nice.
$1000, you have to be kidding. Lowest legit is $5000.
H1B are cheap? Hahaha. Go and ask your HR and they will tell you how expensive it is to get a H1B worker. Plus, H1B workers earn the same amount and more than their local co-workers.
Now, it is a different story for H1B workers working in foreign consulting firms in the US. These guys are paid a lot lower. Basically, these foreign consulting companies are the culprits who are abusing and destroying the H1B.
The visa to study /work in the US are far too expensive for most foreign students.
I’m french, and if I find a intership in the US, the visa would cost about 1000 € (1400 USD) (plus the flight).
“i’m french” — stop right there.
If you are looking for a backwards country where people with brains and initiative find their talents going to waste, then do your recruiting in Pennsylvania. As for me, I plan to take my brain out of the United States and find better fortune in Europe. Voir la vie en rose!
What’s the other salient fact about the 2008-2009 global economy? We’ve been going through a massive worldwide recession.
An article that doesn’t take that rather significant fact into consideration when looking at a drop in overseas grad school enrollment stats is missing a large piece of the picture.
Grad school enrollment is a lagging indicator — grad school applications take anything from 4 to 12 months to work through the process. So the people getting accepted this spring and enrolling this fatt were making their decisions to apply in the middle of the bad times. Small wonder more people would think twice about taking on the added debtload of an education abroad.
The 2010 stats will be more telling. Will the trend continue or reverse itself as the economy picks up?
*sigh* fall not fatt. This thing needs a preview function.