So, it’s looking more and more likely that a large form iPod touch, which we first reported on last December, is coming sometime in the next 6 months. But there are still a lot of unknown variables and question marks. One is the rumored deal Apple is working on with Verizon for such a device. We’ve just spoken with a source who had some more interesting details that may relate to such a deal. The source, which has been knowledgeable about such things in the past, says that Verizon is racing to have its LTE service ready to go in a bunch of markets for Q1 2010.
While it has been known for a while that LTE will be rolling out in select markets at some point next year. The most recent roadmap has 20-30 markets as a target for the second half of 2010. But our source says that Verizon is putting just about everything it has in to moving many of these markets up to Q1 2010 — which is the same timeframe for this supposed new Apple device. While the source had no information to specifically tie Apple to this move by Verizon, they did note that there was talk of at least one non-dongle (wireless card) product that this LTE launch was being specifically geared towards.
Verizon is actually already doing limited tests of its LTE network in select markets. And the results have been very impressive — up to 60 Mbps. LTE stands for “Long Term Evolution”, but an easier way for many people to think of it may be as “4G”. It’s the next generation of wireless network after the 3G that many of us currently use. And there’s another reason that Verizon may want to hurry LTE along as it relates to Apple: The iPhone.
Apple’s exclusive deal with AT&T to be the iPhone’s carrier in the U.S. is set to end sometime in 2010. While everyone (including me) is quick to dream about Apple offering a Verizon iPhone, currently, Verizon runs a CDMA network which is different from the GSM network that the current iPhone is constructed for. This would mean Apple would need to make a new version of the iPhone for Verizon. And that’s fine, except that CDMA will be replaced by LTE, so it doesn’t make a lot of sense to spend time building a version of the phone that will quickly be obsolete. And AT&T is also expected to roll out an LTE network (though not likely until 2011), so this new version of the iPhone could work on both Verizon and AT&T.
Of course, if you’re in a place where LTE isn’t available, what the phone running on Verizon’s network would fall back to is still a question mark. But that’s all just speculation about a Verizon iPhone, let’s get back to the Apple tablet.
Our source believes there is definitely some credibility to this Apple/Verizon tablet talk, because such a partnership could work while the Apple/AT&T exclusive iPhone pact is still in place — which it seemingly will be in Q1 2010. The reason is that this tablet will apparently not have a microphone, so in other words, it cannot do voice calls, which puts it outside of the Apple/AT&T agreement. Such a Apple/Verizon deal would then only include data transfer, with is also interesting in what it could mean for the pricing.
Our source doubts that Apple would want to sell the device with a subsidy, locking customers into another contract, but believes that Apple could either try to bake the cost of the network into the device (which would work like Amazon’s Kindle). Or, more likely, customers could sign up for a month-to-month data-only plan for the new device. And because it’s data only, the price would be significantly cheaper than current cellular bills we’re used to.
Current data plans on top of regular cellular bills run about $30 a month, but data-only plans offered through wireless cards usually run about $60 a month. Perhaps if Apple could bake part of that cost into the device and get the monthly fee closer to the $30 a month, some users might be willing to pay for that. Or maybe, since the device would presumably have Wi-Fi, perhaps Apple and Verizon would offer variable rates based on your usage.
Obviously, there are still a lot of question marks with regards to pricing, but thought of having an Apple tablet that can access data at speeds approaching 60 Mbps is obviously going to be appealing to a lot of people.
Our source went on to note that Apple and Verizon doing some kind of business seems inevitable. They reiterated claims — which we’ve heard from several other sources — that the folks inside Apple are not happy with AT&T at all right now given the spotty service, and seeming inability to handle the iPhone’s rapid growth. That will be music to a lot of people’s ears.
[photo: flickr/woodleywonderworks]
Has anyone bothered to check when there will be multimode chiptsets available for handsets instead of just data modems?
It will be very interesting to see what google, apple, att and verizon end up doing early 2010 since google is planning to invade homes http://bit.ly/yCHzu with android, apple with verizon…
I hope that Apple is smart enough to stay away from Verizon Wireless
Verizon turned the iphone down before AT&T (Cingluar) agreed to it. Everyone loves to bash on AT&T, but they took the risk no one else wanted.
Is this site run by Verizon or something? AT&T is clearly the superior carrier in the US. These articles bashing AT&T make the authors sound foolish.
Ha!
Do you work for AT&T? Sounds like you are taking this article to a totally different level. Grow up!
Apple/Verizon fusion will make a beautiful robust product.
The biggest question which was only briefly mentioned in this article is if LTE requires a completely different architecture than GSM or CDMA phones… what is Verizon going to fall back on? Is it going to have backwards compatibility or will it have both LTE and either GSM / CDMA chipsets?
Seems awkward either way.
yep, as I note, that’s a big question mark. don’t have an answer for that yet. the key point of this talk is the tablet, not the iPhone yet. I suspect if there is a verizon/iphone it won’t come until late 2010, and maybe it will have CDMA fallback.
That sounds complicated. Does that mean more chips on the handset?
As usual, it is best to stay away from the “first harvest”. Please let me know when the iPhone celebrates its six month anniversary with Verizon.
I see it going a different direction first. I think starting this tablet rumor might all be counter intelligence to hide what really is happening. We spend all our time imagining how Apple could possibly build a tablet by Jan 2010 rather than looking at the facts.
The tablet rumor helps Apple get everyone comfortable with the idea of paying for a non-voice device with just a mobile data service. This way, when Verizon announces they will be offering the new “iPod Touch S” with a LTE chip free of charge with a data plan and tethering, everyone will go sign up that doesn’t have an iPhone on At&t.
Why do I think this?
-No CDMA fallback issues
-Lackluster growth in iPod business (maximizes total market reach)
-Apple can’t make a good computer for $499 (BS – Mac Mini)
-Apple never lets news get out about upcoming products
-Acquisition of ARM manufacturer (easier to port mobile OSX over desktop OSX)
-CDMA/GSM hybrid chips will probably require royalty payments to Qualcomm even if CDMA is disabled
-Exclusivity agreement with At&t up ~Jun 2010, but could be extended
-iPod with tethering would be far more popular than MiFi
-Verizon will likely utilize LTE for data and older CDMA-based technologies for voice for many years after initial deployment
In other words, I personally think we will get an iPod redesign Jan 2010. I am not ruling out a GSM/CDMA iPhone by an means or even an iTablet, but Jan 2010 seems too soon.
Maybe MG Sieler can call one of his sources and find out. Thanks for the great article!
What’s slightly less awkward is me reminding people that GSM -and- CDMA are not mutually exclusive technologies in a smart phone form factor.
http://www.tech...comment-2717493
I’d like to reiterate again that it’s just a question of licensing, costs, and time to market… there are absolutely not technology issues on the scale of making pig and elephant DNA mix.
Blackberry did both CDMA and GSM in the same phone and did it very very well. p.s. over 2 years ago to be exact
I still consider that BlackBerry 8830 CDMA/GSM World Edition on Verizon was -the- phone to beat for people that wanted something that would likely work just about anywhere.
Apple could do it even better. p.s. if they choose to
how much cost do you think doing a gsm+cdma would add to each unit jay? enough to justify a cost increase on the end user?
Today I’d put the additional incremental hardware costs under $40 per unit at volume based on
1) market affordable GSM/CDMA handsets such as those in Indonesia
2) premium markets for so-called world phones such as the Blackberry 8830
3) existing carrier support from manufacturers for so-called GSM and CDMA roaming (i.e. the seamless experience)
4) a mature projection on handset sales (prior turnover data from carrier and suppliers)
5) scheduled obsolescence via “New Every Two” [1]
[1] admittedly wishful thinking on my part
YOu live in a world where there is no risk, no opportunity cost and where it’s somehow sensible to chase after a 10% shrinking market share.
does CDMA also include EVDO by default?
Hi Jay,
I had an 8830. It was the phone to beat, unless you cared about seeing your keypad at night, hearing your ringtone EVER, getting rid of phantom voicemail notifications, routinely having to pull the battery out for 30 seconds to fix other glitches, etc.
MGZ
I don’t get it. If a “Verizon 4G iPhone” has to fall back on their CDMA network wherever LTE isn’t deployed and there are already talks about combining GSM+CDMA functionality into one device, what on earth is stopping Apple from doing such a thing in the first place several years ago?
In fact, the way I see it, the only reason why Apple is unable to use a GSM/CDMA hybrid is because their contract with AT&T forbids it. I mean, honestly, the only reason for Apple to stick CDMA into a phone is to use it with Verizon and some Korean carriers (Korea has it’s own problems with foreign cellular carriers).
The reasons Apple didn’t create a CDMA only phone:
1. CDMA is a the “North American” wireless standard, and even though there other places in the world where CDMA is deployed, the majority of the deployed are is in fact North America.
2. Creating a CDMA only phone would mean creating a GSM one for the “rest of the world.” That is two hardware boards to develop and maintain, which is not cost effective.
3. Verizon, hands down turned Apple away. Apple initially went to Verizon and said “We have a great product that we want to launch on your network, but you can’t see it, until it’s released. You can’t talk about it until it’s released. You can’t ever cripple/control it. We want full control over the software experience.” Verizon rejected their offer because they didn’t want to take the risk with a non-player at the time. I know this, because in 2007, after the iPhone was released, my then employer had software development contracts with Verizon and we got to hear the CEO beat himself for not taking the offer.
That certainly was a unfortunate decision made by Verizon but I can’t wait until Verizon gets some sort of an iPhone. I have an iTouch but would love the phone . I didn’t want to give up my Verizon service.
I think eventually all voice calls will be made via internet. I wouldn’t be surprised if one day Google Voice or Facebook or Skype one day decides to provide telephony via IP, and ditching the telephone number approach altogether. Imagine if you can simply make a voice call the name of your friend on your Facebook account instead of fiddling with telephone number. Numbers are harder to memorize/associate to individual compared to names. So, all call via IP with the backend technology being Wimax or LTE with automatic switching of networks without call drop. That’s the future!
What are your thoughts?
Ok, I want one.
This -is- Pontiac excitement.
What proof is there that this device won’t have a microphone?
Personally, I don’t think Apple is dumb enough to ship this thing without isight/mic built in for video conferencing.
If you just threw that idea in to explain how Apple could get away with shipping this thing with Verizon? If so, wouldn’t it be easier to just say that this device won’t be assigned a phone # capable of receiving phone calls, and therefore, isn’t a mobile phone?
I seriously doubt Apple entered into an agreement with AT&T that says it can’t ship a device capable of video conferencing and VoIP.
MGZ
100% agree…who says you have to hold a phone up to your head to talk to your friends…
…how funny that we’ll have portable video conferencing before we have mass in-home solutions…I guess Back to the Future got it wrong.
Thanks to Alcatel-Lucent heavy industries
Here’s what I think going to happen:
Next summer, Apple will come out with a CDMA/GSM iPhone on Verizon. They will tout that they listened to their customers and now the iPhone is available on “the two largest carries in the country.” They will most likely disable the GSM for Verizon and CDMA for AT&T in software, but the hardware will be the same.
When Verizon has enough of an LTE deployed, the 3G bits will be replaced with 4G bits, without any other changes. This will allow the iPhone on Verizon to use 4G where available, and to fall back on CDMA when not. Since the 4G chips are backwards compatible with 3G, the same hardware should work on AT&T, with the CDMA chip “disabled” in software for their customers. This will allow Apple to have the same hardware unit that works on both AT&T and Verizon, be it GSM(3G or 4G) or CDMA. It can also be used anywhere else in the world, with, perhaps the CDMA chip either disabled in software or completely left out from the hardware.
This approach is similar to the cell tower/wifi hotspot triangulation solution provided for the first generation iPhone that lacked a GPS chip. The second generation iPhone used that very technology, in addition to the A-GPS chip, to provided accurate position information, while the first generation could still provided a “you’re in this large circle” vicinity information.
All sounds reasonable to me.
better solution. Apple creates a GSM/LTE phone, unlocks the dang thing and sells it in their stores full retail but allows the carriers if they wish to buy the phones, subsidize etc.
then they don’t have to disable anything for anyone, folks will stop bitching at them about “but I got a phone last year for only $199, what do you mean ATT says I can’t do that now cause it’s only been 10 months and I’m a cheapo on the lowest plan. no fair. fix it Apple.” etc.
sign me up
I have great hope for this device. I am mostly interested in Wi-Fi. I don’t want to sign up for any more plans.
oh yeah. sounds great. I hope the crunchpad becomes real as well. The sooner the better, otherwise they will drown in Apple’s Tidal wave of PR.
This is pure speculation. Verizon wireless invests billions of dollars in Long term Evolution simply for the iPhone… Their whole image is based on being America’s most reliable network, I think they have more in mind for LTE than a few Apple net ads.
Hi “Thinker,”
I believe the point being made was that Verizon may now have a reason to escalate LTE rollout. Of course they would roll LTE out anyway…
Does anyone have any idea what battery life would be like under LTE conditions?
The 2G to 3G jump was a huge battery drain. If we saw similar jumps in battery demand in the new “4G” world, then a tablet would make more sense as it would have a larger battery, and battery expectations would be lower (since people would naturally think of it as a ‘laptop-like’ device.
You could forget about the iPhone in its current form lasting more than a couple of hours in an environment like that. The iPhone 4G would have to be about 4x thicker.
My bet: the iTablet won’t have direct cellular access. Instead, it will tether through Wifi or Bluetooth to the existing iPhones and to a new kind of much smaller phone. There are three benefits to this approach:
(1) The iTablet is dissociated from the rapidly evolving cellphone circuitry. It’s ok for most people to upgrade their $200 subsidized phone every other year – not so much for a $600 or $800 tablet.
(2) The iTablet is not tied to any network provider. People can use it in Wifi-only mode without a data plan.
(3) Apple can simultaneously release a tiny-tiny gum stick sized iPhone-Nano that works on both AT&T and Verizon. This nano phone could provide voice services, a simple address book and, of course, data for the tablet.
I’ve been waiting patiently for several years to get an iPhone, and very hopeful that Verizon will offer the iPhone this time next year. Now I may be able to get an iTablet too. Schweet!
WHAT’S LTE? I cannot understand the story…
There are two main cellular technologies in use right now. GSM and CDMA. GSM (Global Service for Mobile communication) is the standard that most European and other countries in the world have deployed. EDGE (Enhanced Data rates for GSM Evolution) was the second generation (2.5G, .5 is for data) of that technology. UMTS is the third generation (3G) and LTE (Long Term Evolution) is the fourth generation (4G).
CDMA is another technology that is mostly deployed in North America and some of the Asian countries.
AT&T and T-Mobile use GSM as their 2G and 3G technology, though T-Mobile’s 3G in the US runs on slightly different frequencies than AT&T’s. Verizon and Sprint us CDMA as their 2G and 3G network technology. This this why phones that work with AT&T, don’t work with Verizon.
LTE is the natural evolution for AT&T and T-Mobile. However, Verizion has decided to ditch the fourth generation CDMA standard in favor of the fourth generation GSM standard, which is LTE. This opens the door up for Apple, who only make GSM based phones, to get their phone on Verzion’s network.
Thanks for a very clear explanation.
This isn’t really true, and I think many people are getting a bit confused here.
LTE is Long Term Evolution. It is(was?) an attempt to merge both the GSM based standards and the CDMA based standards. The idea is to move beyond standard CDMA(IS2000) based systems, including EVDO(Evolution Data-Only) and the UMTS(Universal Mobile Telecommunications Standard).
This was, at least, the plan. By having a single standard all future networks would be compatible, and buying a phone in the US you could use it in Belgium, or China, or on the moon.
Currently there are ‘competing’ standards and they include:
GSM – Global Standard for Mobility
This is primary a voice based technology, there are extensions to it, such as EDGE which allow higher speed data(2.5G) but it is mainly built for voice, but is used mainly in Europe
CDMA – Code Division Multiple Acces
This gets kind of complicated. The original CDMA standards IS-95a/b were built to support voice. While there was the ability to do data on IS95 networks, it didn’t really get used to much.
There was an extension to the CDMA standard refered to as 1xRTT(or 1x Radio Transmission Technology) This was the 2.5G system for CDMA which allows mobile data, speeds around 100Kbps.
Beyond 1xRTT a new standard was built called 1xEVDO, or 1x Evolution Data Only(now Optimized cause its marketing friendly). It is a system that supports IP based data only, it is not built for voice. In order to make a voice call on an EVDO network the phone itself uses the 1xRTT part of the network. While EVDO and 1xRTT share parts of the same network they do not necessarily use the same equipment. The radio section of the network is the same, but the EVDO data is sent straight through to packet services, and the 1xRTT data is sent through to the traditional telephony network for processing.
UMTS – Universal Mobile Telecommunications Standard
This was built as the ‘next generation’ from the GSM network, however it is not compatible with it in any way. The UMTS network used Wideband CDMA as its radio link. UMTS is a 3G solution, and comprises and entire standard for both voice and data connectivity. UMTS handsets, however support both GSM and UMTS even though their radio interfaces are different. This allows interoperability between the networks. A UMTS device will work just fine on a GSM network. UMTS provides its down data network and its own voice network.
GPRS – General Packet Radio Service
GPRS was built as a tandem system on the GSM based networks to allow for data access. Very similar in scope of 1xRTT data services GPRS is a 2.5G solution to allow packetized data access on the GSM network.
EDGE – Enhanced Datarate for GSM Evolution
Similar to 1xEVDO it is an extension of the data services on the GSM network to allow for higher speeds. EDGE allows for much higher speeds than GPRS, and is a 3G data technology. It is not used for voice.
HSPA – High Speed Packet Access
HSPA is a data only system built to allow the use of WCDMA radio technologies to transport data. It is a very low latency system, and is built around mobile telephony standards. This gives it the ability to allow mobility in the network. It is essentially a competing standard to WiMax since they are both strictly packet based systems that support voice through VoIP/SIP based systems.
There is an extension to HSPA which is HSPA+ which is faster.
As noted previously LTE Is Long Term Evolution.
LTE networks are supposed to be able to passing calls and users to and from all previous generations of voice and data networks.(more or less) A user with an LTE mobile should be able to(theoretically) roam to any GSM, UMTS, or CDMA network. That is the point of LTE.
The plan for most carriers(except sprint for some reason) is to use LTE as their 4G system. Sprint wants to use WiMax.
Its not clear to me what is happening in the rest of the world, but from what I understand most carriers have objectives to move toward LTE.
I’ve rambled long enough, and there are a myriad of innuendos and different gotchas through everything I’ve said, but you can search just about anything you want on the internet, so feel free to note as you want.
In an unusual move, the iPhone was announced six month before release as the FCC certification process is public. If the upcoming tablet has built-in wireless capability even if data only, would that also mean an early product announcement?
Its just not Apple’s style to build multiple versions of the same handset support CDMA/GSM/LTE. Also I dont ever see them building one that supports both and disabling it in the software. What about the device weight issues? Steve Jobs would get back to the hospital if someone in his team proposed that idea. The “Apple Way” of doing it would be to support the GSM standard for now and LTE starting next year. I dont think they will sign any other exclusive contracts. So the LTE device would be available the world over and Apple may directly sell the device to the consumer. If an LTE device were built, Verizon will just need to deal with issues stemming from fallback from LTE to CDMA in non LTE coverage areas. Apple would never design a design based around a carriers limitation.
It is also not Apple’s style to let someone else dictate their designs. thus why we don’t have built in blu-ray at this point even though ‘PCs have had them for months’. Maybe we will get it when the new OS comes out, maybe not, since Apple has the whole download thing going. on the phone front, maybe the iphone 2010 will be LTE, maybe it won’t.
also we don’t have access to the details of the contract with ATT so any comments about end dates, prohibitions, whether a tablet or other device that can access cell data systems is included or not, is suspect
Okay, I’m lost. LTE = Long Term Evolution, which means, more or less, 4G. Does 4G just mean greater speeds? How fast do they expect it to be? Is there more to it than just greater speeds?
I don’t really know what you’re talking about when you mention LTE.
there is one thing that could make this a slam dunk winning device. it needs to have all the capablities of a MyFi router built in. the future of broadband for all devices including laptops and even home and small office desktops if via the cell networks. most people will want some form of tethering to a device they are already paying for. a tablet/MiFi combination or smartphone/MiFi combination will be the future device of choice to light up all the other broadband devices nearby.
LTE doesn’t replace CDMA. Just as 3G did not replace CDMA. All data plans put simply use some CDMA technology, just that they are called WCDMA or CDM200. Qualcomm gets royalty on 3G and will get for LTE also, simply because they invented most the tech that is driving the evolution now.
tom is correct!
Piet is probably correcter…
THE killer device would include MiFi built in, but my guess is that for contractual reasons and otherwise, Apple will be tackling this with a Tablet/Nano iPhone approach.
NEXT? Expect your wallet and your keys to merge with it
Here you go (first picture):
Next Apple moves will be Books and Games…
http://spidouz....books-and-games
And:
iNetbook rerendered
http://www.flic...boer/3226244527
AMAZING!!!
Is it true about Verizon iphone or MiFi, Jan 2010?
With the new talk of A/V Iphone, does that mean it will have voice and data to run simultaneously?