Way more countries have laws against holocaust denial (11 or so) than breast feeding (0), but guess which one is banned on Facebook? That’s right. Pictures of breast feeding babies are indecent, so they’re a no go.
But Holocaust denial is totally cool because it fosters open discussion. Facebook wants to “be a place where people can discuss all kinds of ideas, including controversial ones.” Even, apparently, the discussion of the idea that someone might be a “Nigger faggot, Jew nosed cunt.” That’s just one of many hateful messages I found written on a Holocaust denial site on Facebook.
Brian Cuban is making the removal of these sites a personal mission. He’s arguing the law. He’s arguing terms of service. He’s arguing common sense and decency. These groups are clearly little more than excuses to spew hatred towards Jews, and Facebook is too timid to do anything about it. The first amendment doesn’t apply to private companies. So why is Facebook so willing to take a stand when it comes to hungry babies, but won’t do a damn thing when it comes to the Holocaust.
Because they’re cowards. Here’s more open discussion of ideas on a Facebook Holocaust denial group:
If Facebook doesn’t want to take a moral or ethical stand on the issue, they can easily make a case that the groups violate their terms of service. These groups violate multiple sections of the TOS, particularly Section 3. There’s an easy way out of this for Facebook, and it also happens to be the right thing to do. Why in the world must they draw a line in the sand and then stand on the same side as Holocaust deniers is beyond me.
Update: Up for debate is whether or not this image of Romanian children in Auschwitz, victims of medical experiments, is evidence of the Holocaust, which apparently may or may not have happened. But what isn’t debatable is whether or not this is pornography under Facebook’s TOS. It is.
Yes, Facebook, this is the side of the line you’ve chosen to stand on.
great catch, and nauseating at same time
Feminists think breasts are meant only for breastfeeding and should not be used for sexual pleasures of both the sexes.
Arrington, if you align with spent feminism movement, that’s fine, but know facts before that.
well, breasts do come in quite handy when it’s time to breast feed.
Breastfeeding is used for 6 months per baby, meaning 1 year in lifetime of a woman.
But breasts have nerve endings give pleasure for women on pleading. Men get pleasure both by pleading and sucking breasts is a basic instinct. This is useful for 20 years of a woman and 20 years of a man.
Only 20 years for men to enjoy women’s breast? Good heavens–then I’ve already exceeded mine and have been using two or three other guys’ allotment of time as well!
Hope they don’t find out!
Only 2 kids allowed???? If I was Seal… Heidi would be pregnant 24/7.
And no sex after 36???? (or for you 45) What is this Logans Run?
Breastfeeding is apparently not taboo on Youtube, as can be seen below.
I warn however, the following link might be NSFW depending on how open minded (or not) your workplace is.
http://www.yout...h?v=AsPIuSit9do
Perhaps you are not familiar with the law bush signed in 2004?
http://www.jewi...ntisemtext.html
Just to clarify, not *all* feminists believe breasts are only to be used for breastfeeding…… And I would venture that isn’t an official stance for even a large majority of them. Did I read the comment wrong somehow?
According to feminists, thinking breasts as sexual objects is very much “sexist”. But in fact, breasts are much more for sex than for breastfeeding.
I’m sorry, but you’re a misinformed idiot. Breastfeeding has NOTHING to do with feminism. In fact the few feminists I know are ANTI breast feeding.
All the women I know, and given how active my wife is in birthing and baby related communities it’s a lot, the Facebook issue is entirely down to Facebook deciding the images are sexual, when the breasts are being used for their primary (only) purpose.
So with your logic, Facebook are the feminists as THEY are the ones deleting pictures due to their “sexual” nature. . The women who this has effected do not see the pictures as sexual.
Dear god you couldn’t have your head further up your ass if you tried.
Shhhhhhh! somebody wii decide it’s the newest porn genre and we won’t be able to get away from it!
‘
And Zuckerberg is Jewish too. Crazay.
Im jewish and I say those idiots have every right to say the holocaust didnt happen.
The issue with the breast feeding is that it probably is some weird fetish that people get off on in a sexual sense and the prevention of these images is done purely on a graphical analysis. Now on the other hand the attempted preventing of Holocaust denial on Facebook would be executed by an analysis of the idea being discussed.
Ideas should not be banned images of titties being sucked by a toddler umm that could be questionably bad in my book.
The Holocaust isn’t an idea, it’s a historic fact. The fact that you’re Jewish doesn’t excuse stupidity on that matter.
So what if somebody has a weird fetish on breast feeding? That doesn’t make breast feeding any less a natural part of raising children.
So we have raising children versus disputing the historic fact of the annihilation of 50% of the world’s Jews, and you want to forbit the first but accept the second? You got to be kidding me!
While the holocaust is a fact… Denying that fact is an idea. It certainly is wrong, but so is flat earth theorists, staged moon landing theorists and “9/11 truthists”. The only difference between them is one is hurtful to a lot more people.
The author realizes that people will be a-holes with or without the banning their thought, but a-holes are part of life. To get angry over something you cannot change will lead to a very bitter life.
You’re Jewish?? You’re lucky to alive douchebag.
My point is:
One is an idea about events in history (holocaust in this example) that can be interpreted in any possible way and should be able to be discussed in any possible way and I think that Facebook should encourage such things (please don’t spin my words and say that I’m directly saying that Facebook should encourage holocaust denial).
The other is a image which is graphic content plain and simple and Facebook has every right to ban a certain a type of graphic content like for instance a super gnarly looking image of the half blown off face of a person that just stepped on a land mine or a photo of a big piece of poop hanging out of someone’s butt etc…
I hope you see what I’m saying now.
Breastfeeding is NOT graphic content. There are images of young female stars barely dressed all over the place. Yet somehow that’s acceptable and images of breastfeeding are not??
Well, you can deny the last holocaust to make it easier for another one to occur. It’s very irresponsible to allow holocaust denial to propagate like it does on FB, and it also might be illegal if it’s taking place in the countries where it’s banned.
You can get perverse sexual pleasure from being hateful too, as murderers can get it from the act from the act, as did the Nazis.
There are people with feet fetish and thousands of other kinds of fetishes. But I bet Facebook would care if I posted a thousand pictures of my feet.
I agree. Why should this only one event in history not to be questioned by morons? Why not extend the ban to questioning whether the moon-landings took place? Or why are they allowed to post ideas that the Earth is flat?
Three words from south park: Holocaust denial denial
Too long have we ignored the fact that holocaust denial has happened and is continuing to happen in quite a few places in the world. Dear friends, please come out of the bubble. Holocaust denial is real and it is hurting everyone.
I definitely don’t think these groups should be allowed. They just breed more hate. But you know, Alex, if you think they should be allowed to “debate ” this issue, then that’s fine. But do you think the way in which they are “debating” the issue is right?!
It isn’t like these people are making sound or strong arguments, all they do is insult the Jewish people. THIS ISN’T DEBATE. THIS ISN’T OKAY. This is hate speech. How can you not see that?
Sebastian is right, this isn’t an idea, it is FACT. It isn’t as if millions of Jews got together and decided to make up a war, and create pictures, and write books about nothing. There is no way to deny it happened. The tattooed number on my grandfather’s arm wasn’t done by himself. The book, the stories, the bullet scar in his back… it wasn’t made up. it is REAL. How someone can deny the horrors that our people went through is absolutely not okay.
Are you kidding me??? It’s OK to claim that one of the world’s greatest atrocities against mankind never happened. But…breastfeeding, NATURE’S designed way to feed a baby is somehow indecent?? Now I’ve heard everything. The fact that I lovingly breastfeed my 17 month old boy is offensive, and denial of mass-murder is not. I must be in bizarro world.
Finally some one who agress with me!!!! Im also jewish and the people who hate jews just dont know them!
Finally some one who agress with me!!!! Im also jewish and the people who hate jews just dont know them!
Ahh you people will never get it!
Once again it’s about an idea. And it’s not about Holocaust being an “idea” vs. a “fact” it’s about people’s ideas in the way they interpret the “facts”. Yes, in that respect people might not put stuff up in a logical debate or to invoke logical debate per se; they might just be spewing hate and that is really sad and pathetic but should not be banned.
Plus unfortunately you have to take into account a lot of the artificial provoking by groups like the ADL and the Southern Poverty Law Center. And assume that not just mindless spewing now perhaps is it?
Despite my loathing for these douche bags, I am in Alex’s camp here. Simply banning people for “hate speech” or even dumb ideas (that go against history) can lead one down the dangerous path of censorship.
I’d rather have a society where these morons openly air their stupidity (exposing them for who they are) than have government/businesses spend countless resources tracking down these ignorant fools.
I had no problem believing you were Jewish when you said you supported Holocaust-denial groups existing. But criticizing the SPLC? Now I know you’re lying about something.
P.S. I sort of agree with Facebook’s stand on allowing the Holocaust-denial groups. Holocaust-denial isn’t an idea, of course, but I’m not crazy about banning even an incomprehensibly perspective simply because it’s wrong and appalling. That being said, if Facebook wants to be a forum for free speech, then their position on breast feeding is simply bizarre.
Historical fact = oxymoron
I think – to be fair – if you ban holocaust denial then you need to ban groups that hate other races, religions and cultures.
FB pages that use words like nigger, fag, dike, rag head, etc can be equally offensive to other groups.
For example Nigger to a black Americans reminds them of a time where they had no rights, could be beaten, raped and killed and some would say subjected to similar horrors as Jews in the Holocaust. (Not that I am comparing the two events, different time frames and events – but it’s like saying “what’s worse a broken are in 1 place or 7″… who cares when it’s your arm)
If FB agrees to ban all baseless hate group then that would at least solve one problem.
My view is facilitating baseless discussions around hate serves no purpose.
As for breast feeding… I don’t know why we are discussing this? Society has said that (in general) breast feeding is borderline – some are ok with it and some are not…. Fine… maybe that’s ignorant of society and wrong but there is a big gap between social taboos and facilitating hate and anger which can lead to murder and violent crime?
Why is Techcrunch becoming so sensationalist?
Need to look at compete.com to see if the traffic is down or something.
That said, I think FB will do a disservice if they pull this sort of “crap” down. I think, leaving it there does a greater good as it exposes the hatred that is out there.
Yep it seems techcrunch is going for cheap sensationalist hit jobs to push traffic, call it shark jumping practice.
Umm… aren’t Mark Zuckerberg and Sheryl Sandberg Jewish? Doubt that Facebook supports holocaust denial in any real sense… I agree though, they should stop tolerating its existence. There are several FB groups that target against other groups too – like Muslims and Mormons.
Aniq, you forget you’re posting on JewCrunch not MormanCrunch.
Don’t mess with the Jews, man! Because…because…well just ..err…because they said you’re not suppose to, dude!
FB has become such a large machine that there is only so much policing they can do. You will find all kinds of different opinions in any large community.
The thing about the internet is that it caters to everyone. If you are looking for hate speech that confirms your beliefs on the holocaust, you will have no troubles finding it. If you are looking to buy some garbage found in Britney’s dumpster, you could probably find that too.
I’m happy to say I don’t find myself in either of those camps!
So if i say “40k german soldiers died”, the actual number is 1.7 million is that being a holocaust denier?
Or am I a holocaust denier only if i messed with the “jewish deaths”?
Why is it the Jews have a trademark on the term Holocaust even though over 56 million people died during WW2, that includes 20 million russians(7.7 were civilians)????
The difference of dyeing in a war and being systematically killed is a big difference.
Freedom of speech includes the right to express unpopular or idiotic ideas.
Do you know today there’s still no anti-lynch law in the United States? I say this because we can call what happen to Africans in the U.S. a “holocaust” too, but due to the lack of resources to promote their “plight,” there’s still no protection.
And still, we are called “n’s” in song and dance today and the attitude is, “so what!”
Of course Jews died in WWII, but so did others, but in song and dance, it’s strictly a Jewish affair. On a deep psychological level couple that with the Judeo-Christian idea of a “Chosen People.” How would that make you feel?
Would this be considered “hate speech?”
You’re just upset because they removed those pictures of you suckling a small child. Dude, it’s gross!
You are an f-ing idiot…there is nothing “gross” about a mother nursing her child…it is one of the most natural thing on earth.
Go back under your rock!
I’m pretty sure Pid was being ironic, by insinuating that Michael Arrington had pictures on Facebook showing him breastfeeding a “small child”. Marginally humorous, definitely not bigoted.
@michaelchase100 If you read comments with a smile on your face, you might pick up on these subtleties.
Sarcastic. Oh the irony.
Yeah, but is it natural for a MAN to breast feed a child?
(woosh)
Taking a poop is exactly as natural as breastfeeding. Should FB allow pictures of people doing that?
Amen Michael. Nicely done.
Agree, MIchael. They are cowards and it’s shameful that Facebook provides a platform for hate groups.
Doesn’t anyone wonder why so many people hate the Jews/Israel. You’re barking up the wrong tree. You are cowards for ignoring the source of this hatred. There will always be hatred towards “special” groups like Jews. It’s human nature. It doesn’t make it right, but that’s not how you stop it. Jews make it clear that they are not like everyone else. Do you think they will get the same treatment as everyone else? They’re either gonna get extreme hatred, or extreme love. Special treatment for special people. At the end, all the attention turns out in favor for them.
I refuse to pick a side and try to approach this subject from a neutral intellectual point of view. Both sides are wrong, but you have to look at the source to stop this…
If someone acted/said/or even if people said he was “special” I would probably punch him in the face.
If a people is “special” which causes so much debate and hatred, and we have to look at the source to stop this, are you insinuating we “remove” said special people from the face of the earth? No special people, no hatred for that special people. That’s from a neutral intellectual point of view.
Of course, do human beings have inherent value that prevents us from killing them? Religion says so, and laws reflect that. However, if there is no God, then humans having worth is just a fabrication of the human mind.
“However, if there is no God, then humans having worth is just a fabrication of the human mind.”
Yes, but continuing this line of reasoning anything having worth can be considered a fabrication of the human mind, and so, logically, everything can have no worth (binary zero); but since the universe exists it could be the other way, too, meaning everything has worth (binary one). It’s probably better to err on the side of “having worth”.
No, not “remove” them. Shunning that type of mentality from society is what needs to happen. Inevitably, that’s what’s going to happen I believe. The questions is, will it happen peacefully or violently. If we keep ignoring the source of the problem, than I’m afraid it will happen violently. I don’t know what we should do. You can start by asking yourself how we treat other types of people who think they’re “special.” Be careful though who you label as “special.” There is a difference. Gays, for example, are not “special.” They don’t consider themselves “special” and don’t demand special treatment. They want equal treatment. Jews, Muslims, Christians etc. all believe they are special and demand special treatment. There is a powerful word that we use to label people with a certain type of mentality that discriminates against people of a different race. Unfortunately there isn’t one yet for people that believe they are “superior” than others.
Wait is this an American blog or not? I couldn’t care about breast feeding pics, but what ever happened to free speech. Techcrunch will promote gay marriage as freedom, then push against people being allowed to have an opinion? What a joke.
While we are at it we should also ban groups that claim there was an Armenian Holocaust. After all it is illegal to claim such in Turkey, and we wouldn’t want to offend Turkish people by insinuating their forefathers took part in a genocide. Or wait, perhaps we should just allow everyone to talk about whatever they want, and what is right and just and correct will filter its way to the top? Hey, that just might work! Someone should found a country on those principals!
We should also ban any anti-religious groups. Talk about Mohamed, Jesus, etc. For I don’t see how any group of humans should be above God himself. In fact, even suggesting that we should allow gay marriage is quite offensive to Muslim peoples and considering how many countries have laws against that (try pretty much EVERY one) talk about gay marriage, or anything gay should also be banned.
Wow… And the mental midget of award of 2009 goes too…
So, what you’re saying is that Michael Arrington’s specific ideas of appropriateness should trump everyone else’s? You can’t make everyone happy all of the time. Breastfeeding offends a lot of people – sorry, ladies and babies, but that’s just how it is.
Once you start censoring (yes, censoring) Facebook, it’s a slippery slope. Better to avoid it altogether.
Besides, I’m sure if Facebook had pictures of Jew-Hating-Breastfeeders, they’d take those down too.
Go read the First Amendment. Private speech (i.e., speech on FB and other private forums) isn’t protected speech. FB has terms of service for a reason- they set out what is and is not acceptable content for their site. They’re being pussies about enforcing their terms of service because they’re hung up on what everyone else gets hung up on- the battle cry of “Free speech is what America is all about!!” Nonsense. The government is restricted on what types of speech they can censor. Private individuals and companies, like FB, are not restricted. FB needs to man up, grow a pair, and enforce their terms of service against groups that violate their terms of service, even if these Nazis do cry ‘foul’ through their enormously ignorant interpretation of the First Amendment. Don’t be like them- go read your history and the Constitution and Amendments.
The images above showed some troll insulting a person with racism.
That person was not discussing the validity of the holocaust.
I am really stoked that facebook will let people discuss history without interference.
Even if racist assholes just use it to try to spread hate, it is still better than preventing people from discussing a topic because some people are abusing the idea in some way.
Free speech != hate speech. Don’t embarrass yourself.
Denying holocaust != hate speech. Just because 11 stupid countries in the whole make a law against it, doesn’t mean those 11 are right.
Holocaust is a fact, but denying it just show how stupid some people are.
Denying evolution is as stupid as denying holocaust, but why there are no 11 stupid countries that make law against it?
Stupidiy isn’t a crime.
free speech protects us from our government. it does not protect a bunch of pig ignorant racists from what the rest of us think of them. Facebook isn’t bound by the First Amendment. But it is bound by a sense of humanity and should require respect for basic human dignity to be a prerequisite for membership.
You are right, each corporation should have the ability to choose their own stance. But to suggest that it is immoral for a company to choose perhaps the highest ground, the ground the very Government itself is bound by to protect its citizens, the ground on which a new nation was forged and prospered is ridiculous.
Free speech and respect for it as a human right is THE most moral of choices an individual or corporation can make. And considering Facebook’s CEO and founder is Jewish I applaud him for standing by the principal of free speech and not choosing the easy option. And for Techcrunch to vilify them for doing such shows how little you think of the concept of free speech and its role as a human right to begin with.
Why doesn’t Google ban hate sites from it search results? Ask yourself that… And ask yourself if you think they should… See the slippery slope you are promoting.
you’re missing the point Steven; the pics of something perfectly natural (breast feeding) offends some so they’re banned based on TOS violations, but the other group, also clearly offensive to (many) is ok b/c considered freedom of speech. The point is the double standard.
Steven: google dosn’t ban anything. Just search for breastfeed in google images
Facebook should have a FLAG content option. If no one in my friend’s group found breastfeed offensive then why ban ? if someone feels offended by this racist assholes then, go ahead and ban it.
While google doesn’t ban things, it DOES remove some search results in certain countries.
Besides, Facebook doesn’t have to allow free speech the same way small business owners don’t have to let certain minorities into their establishments if they don’t want to. You may not like it, but you will probably have to get over it.
In order for Facebook to foster open discussion on controversial issues, they need to be neutral. And allow each party to have their own group. There are many hate groups and there are anti-hate groups too.. I don’t see why Facebook should stand on someone side no matter what the subject is.
Also, there are not only hatred against Jews, there are also hatred against Christians, Muslims, Blacks, Whites, Gays, Pokemones and all kind of groups…
It is sad to see “any” hate group, but this won’t go away anytime soon…
I can’t see how Facebook can entertain each group and how can they take sides, afterall, this is an International site with people who have many different point of views and perspectives.
Facebook isn’t bound by the First Amendment. But it is bound by a sense of humanity and should require respect for basic human dignity to be a prerequisite for membership.
Facebook is a business. Seriously, I know this whole imbroglio is incendiary, but get real.
Your argument is a waste of pixels. I agree with your perspectives however saying that Facebook is responsible for censoring these peoples message is an underhanded way of fighting the good fight. The problem is bigoted bastards, not Facebook.
Perhaps you should write for a political blog as well as TC. It would give you a forum to present your individual political perspectives without having to cast it in the guise of a technology article. I expect your article would end up seeming less snarky and more honest.
I’ve seen and heard my share of hate speech. There’s a reason we keep it out of public schools. It’s dark and evil and at its worst is persuasive. Hate speech gives permission to move from strong feelings to impulsive and concerted violence and antisocial behavior.
And yet…
I’m thinking this is a net neutrality issue. I don’t want the people carrying my messages to weigh in on their content.
I’d prefer to see clear labeling, perhaps by the contributors or the community, of content that may be interesting or offensive (depending on your perspective) so that I may avoid or indulge those people or conversations at my own discretion. Clear labeling might restrict access to sections from minors. Clear labeling might target volunteers who care to offer saner counterpoints.
That said, if hate speech flooded my sites, I’d be blocking them like crazy. Tolerance and net neutrality is easier said than done, I guess.
“The first amendment doesn’t apply to private companies.”
That’s a little simplistic.
There are arguments that as a telecommunications provider or a “common carrier” that a site like Facebook could be held liable for discrimination (though not necessarily on 1st A grounds).
Sure – so they should ban hate speech. Pick on the content, not the vehicle.
As Michael said, the first amendment does not apply to private companies and their TOS clearly states what content is acceptable and what is not.
i agree…double standard
Facebook is a private site, they have the right and ability to establish standards. They DO actively establish standards, which is why Mr. Arrington mentions the ban on breastfeeding pics.
This isn’t a freedom of speech issue. No one is saying that you shouldn’t be permitted to spew whatever you want in your own little hellhole corner of the Internet.
But if Facebook is going to judge the decency of content, it better be common.
This is a (and sorry for shouting this here) FREEDOM OF RESPONSIBILITY ISSUE! Because, to slightly misquote Peter Parker/spider-man, in that “with freedom, comes responsibility”…
Something that facebook is patently not applying here, because if they were responsible, then they would have suspended the accounts of these users and removed the content. Of course I’m not a membe of facebook, so do not know what the rules are. I know friends who have been suspended form far lesser reasons, so there’s also double standards.
Other respondents cite the Turkish/Armenian genocide but while that’s possibly correct, it’s going off subject… what we’re talking about here is unexpurgated filth, and while the subject at large should be debated and added to the common consciousness (never repeat, etc) this is beyond, and unreasonable for the Facebook company NOT to remove it.
This may be news to you, but life does not always adhere to comic book storylines.
I dont see any place for this sort of thing. I am all about free speech but hate speech threatens, scares, intimidates etc. Verbal assault is close to physical assault. Its ok to think what you want but not to threaten people. I dont know how to draw the line but this is clearly over it.
My liberty ends where mines begin.
Twitter isn’t immune from trolls either: http://twitter.com/HailHitler
I prefer http://twitter....m/thaREALhitler
I agree 100% Michael.
The TOS is an extremely easy way for Facebook to remove this kind of content.
However I don’t think this kind of content is a violation of Section 5 (Protecting Other People’s Rights) but rather Section 3 (Safety). Specifically:
3.5. You will not bully, intimidate, or harass any user.
3.6. You will not post content that is hateful, threatening, pornographic, or that contains nudity or graphic or gratuitous violence.
If they are not going to enforce their TOS then why have it in the first place?
Isn’t Mark Zuckerberg Jewish?
yes, mark zuckerberg is an idiot jew.
nuff said on him.
Thats gross.
peter
I think its smart for facebook to stay out of this. If they police jew haters. Then they will have to police other group haters as well.
And given that Mark himself is Jewish attempting to ban this groups would be more ammunition to their cause. I think its smart for them to just ignore these idiots.
right. but it’s a good thing they nipped that breast feeding disaster in the bud before things got out of hand.
Amen. Thanks for this post. Like many Jews (and Israel) you usually show an impressive (Miyagi-like) restraint of power. I am glad that for this issue you are willing to use the power of TC to raise awareness and pressure facebook into action.
Best. Headline. Ever.
Totally agree. Great post Michael!
Look, I can clearly understand why people would be upset about these groups, the holocaust is a very dark part of human history and people are committing a moral crime when they try to deny it happened, HOWEVER, I can almost guarantee for every holocaust denial group there is an anti-islam group, an anti-christian group, an anti-Armenian genocide group, etc.
If facebook starts aggressively policing their site for user made group content theyre going to be opening a pandoras box-sized headache for themselves.
People who believe something as ridiculous as denying the holocaust are probably immune to reason, shutting down their ability to post on facebook isnt going to change anything, and we honestly need to learn not to make every little issue a battleground for our personal beliefs.
no. shunning them from society is exactly what needs to happen. By taking their side, and Facebook is quite clearly doing that by defending this as a way to foster open conversation, Facebook is giving them credibility as a viable topic of debate. The direct evidence proves otherwise, and this is such an abhorrent topic that it deserves very special consideration.
How is FB taking sides? By not doing anything it is taking sides? By doing something it is taking sides? It is LOSE/LOSE situation here and you fanning the flames isn’t doing anything to suppress the situation, you’re just throwing more feed into the hate/non-hate debate. By posting articles like this, you incite all the passionate sides of the issues to come out, those who are sympathizers to the cause (of which I am) and those who aren’t (the anti-Jewish establishment). Promoting peace isn’t going to start when you try to FORCE people, organizations to change their philosophies and mindsets. This is a complicated issue that has hundreds of years of behind it. Mr. Arrington, you have not done anything to solve the problem here, have you?
â€All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing’
http://tartarus...burkequote.html
ignoring injustice only leads to things. like the Holocaust.
Why would he? This is all about traffic…
We can’t ignore this or those who refuse and refute it, spread hate like this. Even if fanning flames we should speak up rather than silently wait until the haters and beggots fail.
I don’t want to be part of the web site, a community, that chooses to ignore and therefore allow this to go on.
Being part of facebook isn’t worth it to me, and I hope to a lot of others.
no one is asking you to ignore injustice, michael. There are more ways to put forth your complaint than use abusive hateful language yourself. Having read what you and several others have to say about the folks who posted those comments on FB, i can’t bring myself to distinguish between them and you people. Just so you get it, you are as wrong as they are simply because you post hate messages too.
Your article on the subject gives them credibility as a viable topic of debate.
If you scour the message boards of many popular sites, e.g. YouTube, you will find that the internet is full of discriminatory and hateful speech. I don’t think it is fair to single out Facebook when they are nothing more than a symptom of a systemic problem inherent to the internet, a system which was created for and which nurtures free speech.
If you want to address the problem, it is only right that you do so on a larger scale. Your choice of Facebook is obviously a tactic to drum up page views and emotion, a tactic that, as I mentioned before, brings credibility to both parties you are attacking. Do you not see the logic?
anon, well said. There’s truth in NOT doing anything but there’s also truth to what YOU, Mr. Arrington, are doing and that is, by using this medium as a place to bring awareness to this issue, you also attack a single entity for being the cause of adding hatred to this issue, when that is certainly not the case. Nazi Germany used a number of corporations’ goods and services, of which you, I and anyone in the free world, is also consuming. Do we now start to point fingers, blame these corporations and take a stance on not using their goods and services because they supported Nazi Germany (aka Hitler’s visions of hatred and utter unhumanity)? You have no power other than to incite heated emotions but do you have power to DO anything about it? And don’t say “It all starts with forcing Facebook to take a stand.” There are way many more entities, individuals and corporations that need to make a stand first. Blame the ISPs for allowing these people to have access to post these things. Blame hosting providers for supporting anti-semetic websites (and any website promoting hatred). Blame the industries and companies and government that support an idiot like David Duke and a bid for the Presidency of the US. C’mon Mr Arrington, THIS is not good for the cause of right and humanity. Stick to sensationalizing other topics rather than morality issues. When you start making it your personal platform (even though there are many who support you on this issue), it is when you should start thinking whether it is even appropriate or not.
Promoting ostracism of a group of individuals seldom achieves the intended results.
The passion with which the post was written may make readers sympathetic to the cause of the accused.
Maybe the post could have benefited from a more judicial tone.
I wonder if the “superior” mentality that Jews, Muslims, Christians and Racists exhibit, plays a role in what’s causing these problems and tensions.
exactly … holocaust deniers are sick as sick could be … but i saw no posts on islam bashing … or christian bashing … or any other religion or anti-religion or ethnic bashing on techcrunch … seems to me .. u r taking sides too mike … besides … banning only holocaust denier groups WOULD be taking sides on FB’s part …. for they do nothing for the other groups of the same sort different topics either … and i am certainly not saying they are right … i say they should go ahead and ban all hate groups … its not only the jews that deserve respect … other have feelings too u know
My take. Censoring text and censoring images are two different things? Are they also censoring holocaust denial (ironic?) pictures? Are they censoring text of lactavists?
of course it’s different, but i’m making a point nonetheless.
Actually Michael, you’re *trying* to make a point. You would need to have a cogent argument to make a point.
glad you were able to add to the conversation.
Allowing such activities is beyond tolerance. hurting 17 million jews by denying holocaust and deceiving more than 1200 million by creating groups swearing prophets of Islam, is something which will undoubtedly result in religious conflicts. It must be stopped.
This isn’t about “sensitivity”. It’s about not enabling a forum for demented hate, and the inevitable societal consequences that follow.
Also they should ban Free Tibet groups because that insults the 1.2 billion people of China.
Jew-haters are certainly more militant than lactating mothers. I can understand why Suckerberg allows one but not the other, it’s like back in hi school all over again, you would rather a big bully calls you names as long as they don’t pull your hairs and make you wet your pants. Something never changed. Cowards indeed.
Very well said!!!
Well said Michael. As a major social network Facebook should do the responsible thing and not allow the site to be a platform for hateful speech. Obviously this wouldn’t make the ignorance go away, but it may help prevent its spread and it is a step in the right direction.
Mike, i am so glad you shed some light on this. I have been spotting those groups for more than 1.5 years and reported them to Facebook without any news. This is sad to see how little attention Facebook is paying to those hate-driven groups
http://ouriel.t...israeli-ca.html
Mike, Listen man. I do not like Niggers either (As they are considered to lowest mental grade of the negro). Does that make me a racist? But if I am black or brown and do not like niggers does that make me a racist?
If I also do not like homos and totally think they make me sick and state so openly. Does that make me a bigot?
If 12 million people dies in the Holocaust of which less than half were Jews and I say it is a propaganda to make it look as if Jews suffered the most in the Holocaust does that make me anti Jew?
If I read where Stalin (I think it was him) in WII was responsible the deaths/execution of 20 million Russians and as such Hitler was mild does that make me a Hitler supporter?
If you take the what kind of Dictator are you quiz on FB and a picture of Adolf Hitler and the SS flag on his chest appears and you post it on your profile does that make you a Nazi supporter?
Mike, I have no clue why some people hate Jews. Maybe people just hate smart and successful people period. But of course not are Jews are. But none the less they have that image yada yada.
The fact is dude there is a lot of stuff that we all consider as sick, immoral, crazy, off the charts as we have different tastes.
By highlighting those losers you make them look important. I think you should fight a more worthy cause. You are still young , stop hanging around old people they will make you think of stupid stuff like save the planet etc.
Ummm…yes?
It is interesting that this post is still here. I’m not saying it should be removed, but if Arrington is to be consistent, he should remove it.
Hey Michael!
You are Jew right ?
I am a human being.
Perfect response
One of the best responses ever
great answer!
A+++++++ PERFECT POST. WOULD READ AGAIN.
I got it Michael! You are good Jews :}. Jews are human beings too just like the Palestinians who are paying the price of ‘Holocaust’. I don’t want to generalize all Jews, because some/most of them even are better than most/some Muslims and Christians however people hate Zionist Jews and they have the reason to hate them.
Oh well let me be clear I am human being and Muslim
I don’t want to conceal myself to achieve some goals here like *rollovereyes*
This statement distorts the facts. Israel does not want to keep a military presence in the West Bank; however, each time the IDF retreats, violence against Israelis escalates. This pattern can be seen clearly with the disengagement from the Gaza Strip and subsequent increase in rocket attacks.
â– The real cause of Palestinian suffering stems from the Arab leadership, which since 1948 has used the Palestinian refugees as political pawns against Israel. While Israel resettled over 700,000 Jewish refugees expelled from Arab countries, every attempt by Israel, the U.N., or the U.S. to resettle the Palestinian refugees and provide them a decent life was thwarted by the Arab regimes. Additionally, vast amounts of international aid given to the Palestinian Authority has been lost to corruption or used to finance terrorist activities, instead of being used to improve the lives of Palestinians.
â– Palestinians will continue to suffer as long as Arab leaders focus on destroying the Jewish state rather than on creating better lives for their people.
More than I can see in a lot of things walking around in shoes these days.
Stupid question…..who cares??
“You are Jew right?”
First of all, educate yourself grammatically. You are speaking like Borat.
Secondly, what does Michael being Jewish or not have anything to do with the ignorant fools who are pushing hatred. Nudity (breast-feeding) is natural. We are all born naked. Racism and hatred are not naturally occurring themes- they are the result of misguided youth and miseducation. No one is born a racist. Facebook should not be giving these losers a soapbox to stand on and as it was already pointed out, these hateful comments are absolutely in violation of FB’s TOS.
Facebook has a responsibility, ESPECIALLY BECAUSE THE FOUNDER IS JEWISH, to protect one of the most hated and persecuted groups of people in the history of the planet, from snowball victimization. Ignorance begs ignorance.
As the founder of a social network myself, this sort of behavior would not and will not be tolerated under the purview of my operation.
Thanks for bringing this to everyone’s attention, Michael. It’s frightening how many insane people there are in the world.
Perhaps English isn’t his first language. Maybe you should be more sensitive about that.
I’m a JEW, not Jew-ISH.
Where the hell does that Jew-ISH thing came from, no bloody idea.
If you think you know better, maybe you should correct the wikipedia entry (which has many references to “jewish”):
http://en.wikip...ia.org/wiki/Jew
But I am guessing that you don’t actually know better…
All of this is off point anyway.
Loren, you’re guessing wrong.
I live in Israel, born in USSR and regretfully my family has 36 names in Yad Va Shem.
I’m a Jew.
But speaking of Wikipedia, first line, quote:
”
A Jew [...] is a member of the Jewish people.
”
So calling people Jewish instead of calling them Jews is silly.
Jewish is the adjective, Jew is the noun. Hebrew happens to use the adjectival form for the noun Jew – English doesn’t.
Zach
Are you a Jew?
“No one is born a racist”
Everybody is born a racist — it’s in our DNA and it’s called preservation of the species. Most intelligent people can surprass it, but it never completely goes away if the situation arises. As a white person, if you see an otherwise equal white and black person drowing and you only have one life vest, which one would you throw it to?
You’re racist.
Nobody is born racist. I would say maybe born with the sense to question what we find odd or different from us but definitely not to hate something.
In your scenario of a white and a black person drowning if you consider yourself racist then you would throw it to which one is of the same race.
For me I would throw a life vest to one and since I know how to swim i’d go for the other.
Given your situation again, I’d say most people would go for who is closer or who seems to be having the most trouble staying afloat.
For a while i thought you are the founder of Facebook. anyway thanks again for misleading me one more time ! You is a Good Jews…. oops! another grammatical mistake…
The reason Jews have been persecuted throughout history is because they used usury on non-Jews and refused to integrate.
The reason “holocaust” “denial” is necessary, is because the lie of the “Holocaust” was a PSYOP operation by Russia, tacitly accepted by the allies, to justify outrageous war crimes perpetrated upon the German civillians and to get Jews a “homeland”.
There isn’t a shred of evidence that any Jews were gassed. On the contrary, ample evidence points to the fact that there never were gassings – neither with cyanide nor CO.
Private companies should make their voices heard and not stay silent. Facebook should not allow such hate.
Hate goes two ways.
I whole-heartedly agree. First Amendment rights do not in all instances apply to private companies. Facebook had better fix it or it will eventually degenerate into something that people won’t use like other websites have.
When I cited that IBM had contributed to the holocaust in the thread about the Websphere conference, my post was deleted.
IBM had given the Nazis the punch card machines they used to track Jewish people.
http://www.ibma...eholocaust.com/
I bet this thread gets deleted too. Just like Facebook.
wow. news to me. Interesting. I wonder how much IBM paid to keep this from being public or repeated in the news if it is real?. Is it actually real?
HAHAHA, Of course its real.
Just because its not on cable or local news doesn’t mean its not.
“Is it actually real?” Yes, it’s real. Like your hand in front of you. IBM. Volkswagen, too. Bayer.
Nazi Germany was a war machine. You can’t blame the companies that participated; it was Hell on Earth; many thought Hitler’s Third Reich was the End of the World; what would anyone do?
http://www.crac...is-gave-us.html
This whole thing is stupid, BTW. Referencing all comments in general: Jews don’t think they’re special, they don’t try to act different, and they don’t hate anyone near as much you hate them; you project that trash onto them out of your own fears and insecurities. Half of you can’t spell or use proper grammar but you sure can yell “Jews think they’re better.” Right. No one sees through that, of course.
My Grandma’s tattoo proved she was in Auschwitz but please go ahead and argue that the Holocaust was a fabrication and part of the joke was all the fake tattoos the Jews had. I don’t care. How can I get angry at such a stupid argument? Jews know fact from fiction, they accept it, and they move on. Not you people who die of jealousy at the mere mention of a Jew.
Which brings me to my last point: FB can enforce the TOS all they want but some sort of underground will not only remain alive and well but will flourish and eventually will thrive; witness LJ and the porn uproar of 2007-2008 for examples. You’d never know it happened now. Why? Because you marginalize people best by ignoring them. LJ learned that pretty quickly; FB’s simply trying to save themselves the round-trip fare on that lesson, and I don’t blame them.
I’m not saying I like it or I don’t (I come down on the latter side but that’s not the point). I’m saying you can’t stop it. People are people, and they will say what they say. Suppression leads to frustration and that will lead to worse. I’d rather they spout off online than be thwarted and do more damage in real life than they’d ever do just by “connecting” on FB.
There is no “best” answer for people who want to control and suppress hate speech from others. Best bet for now? Don’t use Facebook. I’ve never used Facebook, so I can’t imagine why you have to log in and immediately view the hate groups, but the way this article was written you’d think so. If FB *forces* you to view the hate groups then leave the site and don’t go back. That’s what I’d do. I’d also publicly flame them until the end of Time, but that’s just me.
Besides the logic pitfalls that abound in this post, there is the fact that other hated religions and races are not addressed. If we’re going to make hate groups *poof* disappear (oh, and BTW…good luck!), how ’bout we do away with all of them, not just ones that castigate Jews?
Auschwitz tattoos only prove they were tattoed in Auschwitz, not that people were gassed.
Now here is where the article looks really suspect.
“IBM leased these machines for high fees and became the sole source of the billions of punch cards Hitler needed.”
BILLIONS??? Are you kidding me? Give me a break. If this is true why id he need billions of cards when all of Europe did not even have the population of China and India today?
good point
it was only millions
Punch cards are storage devices like hard drives. They are used for storing programs and data. There is no reason that the number of cards used would equal the number of prisoners.
it’s not just companies like IBM. many large multinational companies did business with the Nazis, and well after they knew what was going on. in fact, some are still doing it. where do you think retired Nazis who fled to avoid prosecution hid their stolen money and stolen art? colluding banks, that’s where.
by the way, did you know that the Bush family, yes, that Bush family, did business with the Nazis? very specifically, George Walker and Prescott. even more specifically IG Farben. do you know what they made? Zyklon B. you know what that is? the GAS poured into the gas chambers. also those particular Bush family members profited greatly from slave labours (Jews, Poles, etc, and possibly allied P.O.W.s).
Dear old Prescott didn’t stop his Nazi business associations until 1951 – and who knows if he ever really did – and was elected to the U.S. Senate in 1952. of course, the press at the time didn’t cover it.
it’s all a documented matter of record, if one knows where to look (mostly gov’t files).
oh, and *you* happen to know exactly where to look.
let’s also blame the bus manufacturers after 50 years for giving the US the buses which segregated blacks. Or the weapons manufacturers that helped facilitate x, y, or z.
Get over this shit, please. Most of this generation had nothing to do with the Holocaust.
Producing a poisonous gas on a large scale that is _only_ there to kill people is something else than producing a bus, a USB pendrive etc.
Do you think before you write?
The Zylnon B in the Nazi records only sufficed for de-lousing purposes of clothes, with the purpose of preventing Tyfus (typhoid fever), to preserve the prisoners’ lives, so that they could be used as forced laborers.
The high death rate in the camps stemmed from lack of Zyklon B at the end of the war (the allies bombed the supply lines, in spite of Nazi please to the Red Cross to let at least Zyklon B and food through, to protect the lifes of the prisoners)
The Jewish Internet Defense Force (JIDF) started this campaign in which Mr. Cuban is a part – you should have given them credit for it.
i apologize if in my haste to stand up for something i believe in i didn’t give proper credit to all of the other people who think this is bullshit, too.
It’s all good – just know that thousands of folks were inspired by the JIDF to take action, not just against Holocaust denial groups, but all sorts of hate groups on Facebook – some promoting Islamic terrorism, etc – they have about 20,000 online activists writing letters, reporting groups, etc. Brian Cuban was just one of them.
no, great.
…
“GOOD. THAT MEANS YOU’VE STOOD UP FOR SOMETHING IN YOUR LIFE”
The JIDF is a racist organisation in itself. It hacked into heaps of groups on Facebook against the attacks on Gaza and left racist messages against Arabs and discriminatory messages against Muslims.
That’s a lie. I’ve been following the JIDF – First of all it was fans of the JIDF that took over some groups, not the JIDF itself. They also did not leave any racist messages. I saw them w/ my own eyes.
I didn’t see the JIDF release a statement condemning these hackers? That’s such a weak response. The JIDF publicly called groups against the attacks on Gaza anti-Semitic, which is a lie.
Then you didn’t look hard enough – try reading the BBC and many other articles. They made it 100% clear that they are not hackers and do not support illegal activities and that it was fans of the JIDF who did it.
Guys, the main point of this article/blog is false. Questioning the historical acuracy of the halacaust, and hating Jews are two different things.
A
no they aren’t.
Hey Micheal, if you belive questioning the historical accuracy of the Halacaust is the same as hating Jews,,,,,
then would you agree that those that imply the last Halacaust in Ghaza late 2008 Hate Arabs and Muslims?
becareful of how you define your definitions, it may bite you in the a$$
I agree that Gaza could have been handled better, and too many people died. However the constant insistence on calling it a “Holocaust” only devalues the term and detracts attention for the mistakes the IDF did make in the operation.
What is happening to the Palestinians is not ideal, but it sure ain’t a genocide. The sooner the left wing media stopped harping on that term, the sooner people can focus on the real issues of how to give the Palestinians a working State. Which, for the record, is exactly what most Israelis and Jews want.
First, its Holocaust, not Halacaust…..
Second, there was only one Holocaust and that happened during the time of World War 2.
In late 2008 it was an attack against the militants who continually fired into civilian population. Before the attacks were made, leaflets were dropped to warn the residents of the area. I wonder if the militants ever bothered to warn anyone?
And kill the word censor….its ASS not a$$ unless you’re implying TechCrunch is going to be financially unstable because they took a side that you don’t agree with on an issue.
I wonder why we never hear about the Holodomor, an atrocity where Bolshevik Russian Jews exterminated 20 million Kulaks (Ukrainian peasants) by means of starvation.
Marx, Engels, Trotski and the 90% of the politbureau were Jews.
(I forgot to say that those Kulaks were CHRISTIANS)
^ and who is the authority that gets to define how many Holocausts there were?
Well isn’t that implied by the actual definition of the word? As far as I know, the word Holocaust is defined by the killing of approximately six million jews in world war two, and the word Genocide is the accurate term for race murder.
Mum dropped you on floor?
LOL! THIS is where you lose that last shred of credibility. Its where you go from misguided righteous anger to hysterical zealotry.
The questioning of the dominant narrative of history, curiosity coupled with an open mind, is what gives us alternative primary sources that may have been ignored during the stampede to write down the victors’ dictation of what happened. It is indispensable.
History is written by the Victors. No matter how much you argue that holocaust denial is a special situation that deserves special treatment, this fact remains constant.
The holocaust narrative is today’s flat world theory. Absolute. Unquestionable. If you argue, you are wrong and vile. If you want more information, you are wrong and vile.
I am absolutely certain that the Holocaust happened. Any halfway sane person knows this. But for you to turn your position as a writer for TC into a soapbox for your moral outrage, and then become slowly but surely more and more ridiculous and the comments roll in, is the saddest part of this whole debacle.
huh?
He should’ve closed the item to posts in the first place.
Mike, while you may be a loveable donkey, you still have a tale.
If you believe in the “holocaust”, then you believe in propaganda.
Anyone doing their independent research – in spite of blanket-censorship and imprisonments – will quickly discover that Nuremberg “witnesses” were heinously tortured, that there were no Nazi records of any gassings, that Hitler commanded that no Jews could be harmed in the camps and that Auschwitz had a theatre and even a swimming pool.
Why have so many people survived SEVERAL concentration camps?
Because they were work camps, not extermination camps.
There have been no mass graves found – not a shred of evidence.
“no they aren’t”
this is a perfect example of blind faith and lack of reason.
What I say is right because I said so!
yeah, right!
I do not believe that questioning the accuracy of history and hating a group of people are equivalent.
the word holocaust means mass death, or also an act of mass destruction and loss of life. Anytime a large, and I do mean large, group of people are killed that is considered a holocaust. There has been a Cambodian Holocaust as well. 2 million people were killed there. Some of you guys pretend to be so educated, but really you are quite ignorant. I do believe the Jewish Holocaust happened, however, the only Jews that really have a true right to bitch about people denying the Holocaust would be survivors. To me all you 20-30 something year old people are just as bad as the african americans whose great great grandparents might have been slaves and yeat these people think I owe them something. I never owned a slave in my life and they weren’t a slave, but yet they feel the world owes them. There are other groups of people who were murdered in mass numbers not just the Jews. I am terribly saddened that any of the Holocausts around the world ever happened. However, to deny anyone the right not to say hey maybe this didn’t happen quite like we are made to believe is rediculous. Might as well be a communist. and Even hate speech, really what gives anyone the right to censor anything that someone else says??? They are only words people. Grow up. If it’s violence fine stop it. But we are talking about WORDS!!! they can’t hurt you. They can’t kill you, it’s just ignorance and words
There is nothing wrong with questioning it. But it should also be noted that that it is not coincidence that the a lot of the same people who question it, also happen to be racists.
What exactly are you questioning? If it happened? Then yes, they are the same. Minor details, such as dates etc?
I mean c’mon. My grandfather liberated Dachau. I’ve got his pictures of what they found. I’ve been there too.
Don’t split hairs with me.
I don’t have a problem with questioning things. I am a believer of questioning every, because through that, knowledge can be gained. Remember, not all people have the knowledge that you have because you were related to someone who was there.
As it is there is a wealth of information on the Internet about this. This Facebook page (as other pages) is not about questions but about denial and promoting racism.
What is the basis for questioning it?
Visit the Holocaust Museum in Jerusalem. The amount of evidence there that the Holocaust happened is beyond overwhelming.
At what point is “questioning” merely a hidden way of expressing Jew hatred?
At or FROM them?
Some of the apathy you might sense comes from the unhappy feeling it get’s rubbed in other’s faces.
While you can claim it’s unintentional, it’s still highly counterproductive. We KNOW Jews AND SLAVS, GAYS and COMMUNISTS…anybody the Nazis targeted as being inferior etc GOT MURDERED AS WELL.
We KNOW who dislikes Israel/Hebrews etc. Do you think I support it?
Just because you are on some depressed jag, Michael, don’t masquerade an opinion piece in this fashion and don’t find yourself indignant or digusted when you get exactly what you asked for.
If you want to write a humanities blog, create one. You are really alienating your solid readership base by lolligagging like this, or with Twitter 24/7 mating season stuff. Your life must be at a crossroads. What is the deal?
Are you calling me an Anti-Semite? You know nothing about me. I couldn’t give a damn what anyones race or creed is. My point is that not everyone in this world has a lot of knowledge about the Holocaust. If you think that every person in places like South America, Africa, or China knows about it , you’re kidding yourself. Having questions and denial are two different things.
I am against these groups existing on Facebook because they are racists but apparently that is not good enough. Apparently no one is not even allowed to ask questions about it.
If you ask questions about God, the Christians will hate you and call you a heretic. If you ask questions about the Iraq War and torture, you’re un-American and a traitor.
Overlooked Millions: Non-Jewish Victims of the Holocaust
http://www.ukem...st/victims.html
really? And you say that because the top 3 groups that deny Holocaust are:
1. Iran (which multiple times announced in the last 3 years it wishes to destroy Israel (–kill all Jews in it) and many other Muslim/Arab groups (I put them in the same category, I am perfectly aware Iranians are NOT Arab)
2. New-Nazi groups (Which LOVE Jews, blacks and anyone else basically)
3. Very small (VERY small, like 5 people) of ultra orthodox Jews which are anti-Zionist and believe (like Iran) that the state of Israel needs to not exists (they have equally crazy belief, that the mashiach will only come when that happens)
come on, that is just BS. There is no single serious person in the world that denies the holocaust and that does not come from a hate point of agenda. this is not like we are talking science here.
If someone in the USA starts discussion if black slavery really took place.. I bet he is not going to be received as a serious “scientist”
2. That’s bullshit.
3. Anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism are very different things. Just because you’re against the state of Israel does not mean you’re against Jews or deny the Holocaust.
WOW. Tell me how so
would not wiping a country off the map include the people? duh
Wha’t BS about 2? That Nazi groups denie the holodust (if that is your point, you can just make it and I will know not to waste my time) or that it is BS that I think Nazi group “love” everyone (blacks, Jews…)?
as for 3, I did not say that if you hate Israel then it is the same as being anti-Jew. I said however (lets see your logical mind here) that while that does not HAVE to be the case, it is highly correlated.
Fact: most individuals that are brought to justice in France for antisemitism activities (burning a synagogue) are:
1. Arab/Muslim
2. Express hatred to Israel.
So the 2 don’t have to go together, but they tend to go.
anti-Zionists call for the dismantling of the state and creating one secular state, of both Jews and Palestinians. It’s a lie that we want to wipe Jews into the sea.
csmba, it’s bullshit that Nazis love those groups. They’re still racist.
That stat doesn’t prove much to me. Most Arabs and anti-Zionists don’t burn synagogues
1. WOW, you are not very good in reading sarcasm. You need to get out more. OF COURSE I was saying that Nazis love those groups in a … NOT kind of way…
2. What was your grade at computational Logic? (sorry, I don’t actually want to start a flame war or be rude, I apologize) . I did not say, and there is a difference between:
A) Most XYZ tend to be/do ABC
B) Most ABC tend to be/do XYZ
I will let the smart crowed figure out what I said and what I did not.
“anti-Zionists call for the dismantling of the state and creating one secular state, of both Jews and Palestinians. It’s a lie that we want to wipe Jews into the sea.”
Correct. You’re willing to let the Palestinians do it.
Zionism is the Jewish national movement. Jews share a common history, language, culture and religion, just like many other nations.
■We should apply the same standards to all nations. If the Syrians, Egyptians, and Brazilians are entitled to have their own states that bestow certain privileges to their own people, then why are the Jews condemned when they do the same? Where is the criticism of Jordanian nationalism that forbids Jews from becoming citizens? Saudi Arabia does not allow churches to be built nor does it permit the practice of other religions. Those are forms of discrimination that are rarely criticized. Martin Luther King Jr. once said, “When people criticize Zionists, they mean Jews. You are talking anti-Semitism.”
â– Zionism, having succeeded in re-establishing the Jewish state as a vibrant democracy, inspires freedom not only in Jews but in other minorities seeking self-determination.
Totally agree! I posted on the same thing. There are numerous racist Facebook groups that aren’t deleted including racism against other races, especially Arabs.
Hey, Benji, since you’re a big believer in creating secular states, do you support converting Egypt to a secular state where Muslims and Copts have equal status? How about Iran?
That would only be fair, no? Let’s all go secular.
Why you made this about a “personal campaign” is beyond me – thousands of activists have been all of these groups, and others – including the ones promoting Islamic terrorism, genocide, etc.
A personal campaign? TechCrunch has a pretty massive reach at this point. It becomes important for them to reveal scoops, uncover morally subjective matter, and speak the truth about some of the companies people use day in and day out.
It’s not a personal campaign, it’s important.
No – what I meant is that they described Mr. Cuban’s effort as a “personal mission” – meanwhile, thousands of us have been on it for over a year now.
Half of These Holocaust Victims Were Non-Jewish
http://www.holo...tforgotten.com/
You are such a jerk!
Out of 5000000 “others” most were married to, hiding or “sympathizing”. No other nation was destroyed as a “campaign” , so called “final solution”. The Jewish life in Europe was totally wiped out. People who survived and came back were met with hostility and hatred and most of them fled. Villages (shteitls) were destroyed and never restored. The lifestyle of Jewish village was eliminated from the face of earth. What other proofs do you need? Do you have any other example of 1.5 million kids murdered in the history of mankind?
It makes me sick to answer to people like you and try to explain something so obvious. If it never happened where is my grandfathers’ family?
Um, how about the Roma gypsies? They weren’t the primary target of the Nazis, but there was certainly a genocide committed against them by the Germans during World War Two. Gays aren’t a race, but considering the concentrated effort against them, one could also consider it a form of genocide. And no, noting that there were non-Jewish victims of the Holocaust is not denial or anti-Semitic. I really don’t understand why you mention your grandfather’s family, as if that gives you access to a truth absent to others, but if you’d really like to compare lists of Holocaust victims in one’s family, I dare say I have a decent shot of beating you.
Facebook has every right to ban whatever content they choose. But we need more free speech, not less.
We need speech that costs us as well.
I have a sudden urge to post a picture of me FEEDING MY BABY on FB and see how long it takes for anything to happen.
If you squint, Facebook looks like a young Microsoft… Headed down the wrong path, that’s for sure.
Mike,
Its been a while since you were so active in the comment thread. Thanks for comin’ back!
I assumed that the reason for FaceBook’s refusal stemmes, in part, for the fact that Mark Zuckerberg is Jewish. (A sort of self-denial?)
A similar case happened a few years back regarding the Google search term “Jew”, which resulted in the following page. (With Google ads pointing to the page.)
http://www.goog...xplanation.html
http://www.goog...UTF-8&q=jew
(Look for the Google ad.)
It’s not only Facebook: racial haters are on YouTube for a very long time (Jew haters, Black people haters, Muslim haters, Turkish haters, etc.), and everybody seems to find it normal…
Already complained about this, never had any answer.
It’s the reason why many people use plugins in their browser to turn off the comments section.
Does this mean that I have to use a plugin to not see contents that is considered as criminal in several countries?
In Europe “incitation to racial hate” can bring you to jail, for a long time. Never see anyone from YouTube in jail for this.
True – the JIDF has been active on that front too:
http://www.thej...and-videos.html
Thank you for this link that I didn’t know!
You know they claim Hitler was part JEW.
I forget, what did Facebook do when people were starting up heaps of anti-Muslim/anti-Mohammed groups?
If they shut those groups down, they should shut these ones down to avoid accusations of playing favourites, if they didnt take them down, they’re at least being consistent, somewhat.
However, I don’t understand why they would take down relatively mild breastfeeding content, American priorities are just totally fucked.
So if I have a Hitler picture as my FB profile picture. Does that make me a fan or foe off the JEWS?
It just makes you a drama thing.
michael, why is questioning the historical accuracy of an event the same as hating a religious group?
and where is your hate for other groups on facebook – like I Hate Christianity (http://www.face...;gid=5144212223) and I hate Islam (http://www.face...gid=17018913646)
A pithy definition of a Holocaust denier is someone who believes the Holocaust didn’t occur but wishes it did.
Depends on what you are questioning, and the way you do it. Ever heard about the word “sophism”?
Dunno about US, but in many European countries, negationism is considered as a crime.
I dont care what it looks like or what its purpose is at any given moment.. Any photo of a breast is always a good thing IMO.
As far as denying the Holocaust, there are idiots everywhere. Some people are still buying Zune
.
Removing content only serves to make its presence even more widely known (see the Streisand effect). By campaigning for the removal of this content you only help to make their opinions well known.
The ACLU defended the right of the Skokie Nazis to speak, not just because of first amendment rights (clearly not a question here), but because letting them speak would make an even more powerful statement than keeping them quiet. A million people united for Holocaust knowledge makes a group of 5,000 deniers look rather stupid. Why kick them off and keep them quiet when you can make them look like idiots?
You are right that the ACLU defended the right of neo-Nazis to march in a heavily Jewish neighborhood of Chicago, but they did so because it was the government (an entity bound by the Constitution of the USA) that was trying to stop them.
This is talking about a private company that, as illustrated by the censoring of breast feeding, has the right to monitor the content posted on its website.
I actually addressed this in my point and noted that they defended this right because they believe that letting people speak their minds is actually a powerful tool for preventing problems like the Holocaust, a tragedy largely caused by people being afraid to speak against injustice. You are arguing against a straw man I have already acknowledged.
Let’s hope that Facebook is not upholding double standards. If they shut down anti-Muslim groups or comments they should certainly do the same to any other hate group spreading ignorance.
And what is wrong with breast feeding? I should start a pole: what year do you think America will finally shed its Puritan attitudes? 2010, 2100, 2400, or Never. Sadly, I think the greatest percentage will be “Never”.
I dont think that EITHER should be forbidden to express what they believe in! FREEDOM! FREEDOM! FREEDOM!!!!
I believe the holocaust took place and that it was a terrible act against humanity – but I don’t believe I can deny the rights of others to express a different opinion.
The Greeks were enslaved by the Turks for 400 years, so I understand the sensitivities that surround this issue.
At the end of the day, the best way to express your support or disapproval of Facebook, or any site, is with your mouse.
Facebook is free to do as it chooses – and members or prospective members are free to then choose their course of action.
Those actions or inactions are what will will get the attention of FB.
Cheers,
The Greek
Michael, you must have missed the “don’t feed the trolls” sign! The only thing you do when you acknowledge this type of behavior is encourage more of it.
Well said Michael… I have seen such atrocities (and some of the comments in this thread and similar ones in Facebookare nothing short of vile!!) on FB being allowed to continue yet someone who does NOTHING but good for Environmental, Children’s, Women’s and Human Rights in General gets disabled.
Kudos for telling it the way it is!
The problem with this is that First Amendment right do not always extend to privately held companies. What this comes to is Facebook protecting their image. If they allow an “anything goes” mentality, their business will suffer.
There are many pages like this on Facebook which are racist against one group or another. All of them should be done away with.
I think the main point of Arrington’s post is Facebook has established a precedent of moderation by banning things like images of breast feeding. For them to ban that, but then allow something as morally abhorrent as holocaust denial, shows a serious disconnect and a need for regulation.
They need to explicitly establish the rules of what is and is not allowed, and enforce them *stringently* to avoid double standards.
As the granddaughter of an Auschwitz survivor, this issue is very black and white – Holocaust denial IS hate speech and therefore unequivocally unacceptable.
BS. Once upon a time white people thought the friggin world was flat and that blacks were part human. Allow these people evolve. Either they prove themselves right ( In a zillion years) or they make total asses of themselves.
What about her post is BS? That hate speech is unacceptable?
Why is that BS? I’m all for freedom of speech, but even in the US that comes with terms. You can’t say anything you want. For example, we have obscenity laws. Plus, the supreme court has ruled that our constitution doesn’t protect you if you want to yell “fire” in a crowded theater.
With freedom comes responsibility. And since Facebook has already set an absurdly low bar by banning breastfeeding pics, this is a no-brainer.
I can understand the general idea of censorship as questionable, particularily manifested by the seemingly benign “images of breast feeding.”
However, there are plenty of groups on breastfeeding, so it is important to make a distinction between the activity and the images.
So, given a policy that pays close attention to images and not ideas / expression of ideas which is actually somewhat consistent.
1.) Edit any images of bare breasts regardless of context — that’s your “explicitly establish the rules of what is and is not allowed, and enforce them *stringently* to avoid double standards.”
2.) Allow a large amount of written content; however, abhorent different people may find the information.
There are tons of offensive groups using all kinds of racial epithets, targeting figures with factually incorrect information: Jews, Blacks, Muslims, Christians etc.
Also, mentioning your ties to someone who survived an incident, no matter how awful, provides no strength to your argument.
M.Arlington is trying to lump all these things together in order to create pageview drama.
Wait, why are these two problems being compared? How are nudity and hate groups, speech in the same category? You should fish deeper.
Realize Facebook can’t take sides on morale discussions but they can take sides when it comes to weather or not to allow nudity.
Why the hell are these two subjects being put in the same ball park?
Disclosure: I own no shares of Facebook.
This is how I see it.
Facebook has made a judgement that they are going to protect free speech, but are going to restrict for nudity.
I don’t believe that this is a wholly unreasonable position.
This position is completely unbiased in my position, and while I personally find holocaust deniers to be idiotic, I also consider people who deny evolution to be idiotic. Then again, I imagine a lot of people believe that those who deny the existence of god are idiotic (some would even say the evidence for God is even more apparent then that which is available for the holocaust).
That being said I don’t want facebook ruling on what “beliefs” are more reasonable then other ones.
I believe facebook can take a position on hate speech though and state that any physical threats against others, even groups, can cause a group to be deleted. That seems reasonable.
Free speech does not extend into assault (which is what specific threats are called in the US), and so I think that position would be reasonable.
That being said, saying you hate Jews, or Atheists, or Women, or Homosexuals, or Christians, or Muslims, or Black people, or white people, or aliens, SHOULD be allowed, or at least should be on the same level.
I find facebook to be unbiased and fair and I commend them on their ability to take a moral stand on the content allowed on their site and to stick to it even if it is difficult.
Well Put. Hear Hear!
Why does Facebook have specific provisions in their TOS banning, ” ” if they are not in the business of regulating what is said on their website? There are various reasons why Holocaust denial can be considered to be hate speech and specifically anti-semitic.
Jews were the primary target of the Nazis’ early racism laws and later their death camps. If one would want to target Jews again, a major obstacle would be the institutional memory of the Holocaust and the horrors that the Nazis’ anti-semitism caused. As one diminished that institutional memory as well as question the historical accuracy of what objectively happened, the public’s eagerness to protect against future violent actions against Jews and other religious or racial minorities can also be lowered.
That is just one possible reason for the denial of the Holocaust, there are many others. Either way, the difference between the denial of the Holocaust and to use your example the denial of evolution as an established scientific theory are very different. One is rejecting that an established fact in history actually happened, and by doing so to serve a hateful purpose. The other is to reject something borne out through scientific evidence, because one believes that one’s evidence (in this case, the Bible) contends otherwise and is greater in veracity. Creationists’ rejection of evolution does not stem from their hatred of scientists or others, but rather from a fundamental reading of the Bible.
I agree with you that just because one feels offended by something is not a justification in itself for banning something, but when that something is overtly targeting a group of people or is borne out of hatred, then it should be stopped by sites that claim to monitor their content like Facebook.
Sorry, I forgot to put in the quotations for the TOS provisions: “You will not post content that is hateful, threatening, pornographic, or that contains nudity or graphic or gratuitous violence.”
Call me crazy, but some of the excerpts from Facebook which were highlighted by Arrington seem to be “hateful” to me.
“That is just one possible reason for the denial of the Holocaust, there are many others.” – there is one main reason: antisemitism. the rest is just big fancy words…
Ironically Irving and Holocaust deniers is doing exactly what he and his kind accuse the Jews of doing …getting rich.
Those who deny the Holocaust are among the evil of the world. Their concern is not history but hurting Jews and their attempt to rob nearly six million people of their experience of unspeakable suffering gives new meaning to the word “cruel.”
First of all, it isn’t just the German records that prove the Holocaust. It is the eyewitness accounts, the survivor accounts and the physical evidence. And, sadly for your attempt at revisionism. Many people recorded what was happening, there is quite a bit of physical evidence and many eyewitness reports. Simply because you refuse to admit the crimes against Jews and they did not make systematic records as the Nazis did is no reason for anyone to think it didn’t happen.
They are building the cages for you guys in Europe, and soon in USA. Already Caged
http://www.zund...tims/index.html
how about visiting the site of a camp. There still are no birds around them. And I haven’t read that on a stupid forum.
People with this little knowledge shouldn’t be writing about this. And people who can’t even spell holocaust are exactly the people who might willingly or unwillingly bring it back.
Thanks Chris M! I think you are brilliant. However, I personally do not consider the holocaust to be of any more importance than any other holocaust, especially those being made by Jews themselves against others. And to confirm what you said, I for example think that not believing in God is idiotic and so is believing in evolution
I am the other extreme.
What are you talking about? Name one holocaust made by Jews or is that what your are calling the right of the Jews to defend themselves?
so it is alright for the jews to kill people in the name of defending themselves?
When will Hamas admit they are terrorists throwing rocks at a lion with reckless
abandon of the safety of their families.
There is volumes of history books on the subject of warlords, gang leaders and terrorist chiefs, the people that make most of the violence happen. It’s not like they could just push a button and make their bad guys go away. In many cultures, the process moves a lot more slowly and involves lots of talking, coffee, promises, deceit and drama. Some felt an end to the vengeance killings was necessary. Making this happen is the next crucial battle in any war.
Terrorism is threatening all lives by taking some.
The point of terrorism is to cause terror, sometimes to further a political agenda and sometimes out of sheer hatred. The people terrorists kill are not the targets, they are collateral damage. And blowing up planes, trains, markets or buses is not there goal, those are just tactics. The real targets of terrorism are the rest of us and the billions of us who are not killed but are terrorized because of the killing. The real point of terrorism is not the act itself, but our reaction to the act.
Those who advocate terrorism which has caused Israel to adopt tactics to defend itself are in fact supporting terrorism and encouraging continued attacks on Jewish and other civilians in Israel. The blood is on their hands.
It also has evidence showing that the terrorists shot and killed innocent civilians to make it look Israel carried out an atrocity.
The terrorists deliberately target the civilian population in schools, restaurants and shopping malls. Israel strikes against terrorist and military targets only. Israelis have always held the value of human life as being extremely important. Can you really compare Israeli counterstrikes against specific military and terrorist targets to a suicide bomber walking into a restaurant and deliberately targeting civilians eating their lunch? Or with a passenger boarding a bus with a bomb with the intention of murdering all the passengers on that bus? There is no justification whatsoever for those actions.
Terrorists are made up of cowards that are afraid to meet their enemy in the battlefield like real soldiers, but they hide in civilian areas or behind civilians, hoping that Israel will not attack, and knowing that if they do, more civilians will be killed than terrorists.
Very well put, I difficult position to take though.