I can only imagine the angst that Jessica Vascellero at the Wall Street Journal inserted into countless minds this evening with her article about the difficulties people are having defining what is and isn’t a “friend” for online social networking purposes.
Most Americans who aren’t teenagers or a little older are just getting used to the idea of social networks in general. But the complicated and evolving rules about what constitutes friendship online is adding even more stress.
One young woman had to face someone she defriended on Facebook in a chance encounter on an elevator, and re-added the person to rid herself of the guilt. A middle aged jeweler frets over the implied meaning a competitor unfriending him. Meanwhile, the web-savvy David Dalka, saying he doesn’t need to know “you’ve changed to a new brand of peanut butter,” has unceremoniously dropped people from his friend list at LinkedIn.
So What Is An Online Friend, Anyway?
The social networks themselves, and those of us who spend a lot of time there, are still trying to work out the details on what it means to be a friend with someone online. With friendship comes benefits – you get a stream of information about the person, but it also has costs (you have to wade through a stream of information about the person, and they get access to your intimate details).
Facebook in particular has struggled with this. For a time they really just wanted users to be online friends with people they already know in the offline world. That messaging has subtly changed more recently, though, to a less rigorous position.
It’s clear that the more friends you have on any given service, the more noise you have to wade through to find the golden signal. In the real world when you don’t want to be friends with someone, you just find ways not to spend time with them. But online, you click that friend button because it seems so easy, and it’s considered insulting if you don’t. And then you pay.
Social networks are taking two approaches to dealing with this. MySpace and Facebook (and those like them) have added different buckets to throw friends into. You can share more or less information with different groups of friends. So if you aren’t really friends with someone but don’t want to insult their friend request, you can throw them into the unwashed masses bucket (or whatever you want to call it).
The other approach is the one taken by sites like Twitter and Friendfeed. Anyone can follow anyone and watch what they’re up to, but you are under no pressure to reciprocate. The problem with this approach is that there is still a lot of social pressure to follow people back. I suggested a “fake follow” back in August so that you can just pretend to follow those people. Friendfeed now has a feature which allows just that.
But bucketing friends just seems like a bolted on way to fix the problem. And managing the changing relationships you have with of hundreds or thousands of people across multiple sites is a real time sink. In the future, the services should be able to do a much better job of just figuring out, through your gestures, who you are really close to and who you aren’t. It may also define a relationship with someone I don’t know at all based on whether or not we have friends in common. So even if there is no interaction at all, Facebook and MySpace (or whoever) can theoretically have an idea of how much personal information to share between us.
Ultimately, though, our culture is adapting just as quickly as the networks are. Facebook’s Mark Zuckerberg has said users are becoming more and more comfortable sharing online. Sometimes (ok, often) Facebook is pushing the envelope when it comes to deciding on my behalf what is shareable and what isn’t. They’re placing aggressive bets on where this is all evolving. And sometimes they lose the bets (but not always).
But where they are correct is that there is no bright line of right and wrong when it comes to defining online friendship. The algorithms and the humans will meet somewhere in the middle.
facebook (and others) should automatically unfriend people if they don’t interact at all after a while (one month?).
No such thing as friends, lol.
Atleast in the grown up world, that is.
People only ‘befriend’ people for professional reasons, basically.
The term ‘friends’ should be replaced with ‘business associates’, and vice versa
If you want a true friend – buy a dog.
They’re man’s best friend
I’ll have to disagree with you about there being no such thing as a real friend. There are many people I know who I could depend on if I needed help. And they would help me. And I don’t think that this friendship is simply a by-product of living in a foreign country and associating mostly with other expats in my same city. You become a friend by being around somebody, and slowly getting to know them. Friends don’t happen overnight.
I have to agree Lawrence, friends is all too often a term just thrown around to make people feel “good”. You have your TRUE friends such as people you grew-up with or actually hang-out with then you have associates.
Jon
http://WoodMarvels.com – Create Unique Memories
That’s a terribly sad way to be part of this world. It may be a feature of the space you choose to occupy rather than a universal truth, however.
That’s exactly it. The term “friend” is not appropriate for what are basically “virtual contacts”. I don’t have any friend that I haven’t first met in real life. The rest are interesting contacts.
-you all see who this post from WSJ was written by?
- the girl in this video shot in cyprus:
http://www.tech...-end-to-web-20/
-this is really a non-issue for most sensible people
-mashable, the idiotic blog, wrote about this “phenomenal occurrence” as a storyline in the last couple weeks; mashable should be credited for this story idea
-the first few comments on the WSJ post sum it up well: This is not an issue for anyone reasonable (i.e. that i know), just webrities
Be my friend.
Definition of a friend? Someone you can be your absolute self around. No holds barred, no questions asked.
Anyone else (including online friends you don’t think fit the bill) should fall under “acquaintances”.
“That’s the ying and the yang. The badda and the bing.”
It seems that for many people, the true meaning of “friendship” is blurred when communicating with “online acquaintances,” who, let’s face it, are total strangers, not “friends.”
Hopefully, growing up would help define both concepts…
As per Mr. Samuelson, quoted on the NY Times article, he seems to be more interested in “business contacts” than on online “friendships” –BTW is 36 years old… and seems to know the difference.
Mike: I thought friendship online means I could stalk you. Oh, it doesn’t mean that? Merry Christmas anyway! Oh, and stay off of friendfeed. You can’t handle that addiction.
Mike, Robert and others,
No posting for you guys today, Stop the addiction of posting and commenting and stop getting us addicted to commenting and reading. Go and enjoy Christmas with your family, friends and Facebook Friends. I’ll peep in to make sure you haven’t posted today. HAVE A MERRY XMAS GUYS!
Friendship allows people to see what you are doing online. I think the best way to look at it is if you know that person offline, like went to school with them then friend them. But that doesn’t mean you guys are friends or even really talk.
Online friends are just another category. We all have different levels of friendship with people. I think it goes best friends, friends, acquaintances who we call friends to be polite and then online friends.
The reality is real human connection is always going to be more powerful than a digital one… but the one neat thing about social sites is they bring people together… I have met some really interesting people all over the world on Facebook in the groups… People I do care about…
but then again I am head over feat over a girl who posted a picture in my Facebook feed… it sucks cause she lives in Malta…
You are confused: you have not “met” the people you “chat” with online. It is not a “chat,” let alone a “friendship” –What we do is exchange text screen-to-screen with total strangers… “online acquaintances” and there is no need to feel either guilty or embarrassed at all when deciding to stop the text exchange.
It is like walking down the street and passing by people we do not know: they are not our “friends” –they are strangers too…
Yes you are right I have not met her but I will meet her… I suppose the best you can hope for from a social site is an indication that you might have enough in common to be friends in real life….
“Online friendship” requests are simply statements of interest, some of which are pursued when reciprocated and actionable; others are merely potential avenues, some of which will never be visited.
Couldn’t say it better!
Well, we all know Facebook ISN’T the place for friends since they won’t let you have more than 5k… let’s not even go there.
You cant have 5k “friends” or it is called SELF-PROMOTION. Please be real and honest.
Friends are merely a codified database schema convention dutifully populated by a person or process of automation.
Reading much more into Friends is problematic.
Some might say Friends are defined by the implied actions and complicit approval of normalcy in both interaction and formative affection.
Soul Coughing described this in “Down to This”:
You get the ankles and I’ll get the wrists…
A real friend is someone I can call at 3AM if I am in real trouble. That really narrows it down already to the friends I have the cellphones from. Then the ones stored in my cellphone. Then the ones from that list I could call at 3AM to ask for help, it comes down to very few.
Loic: I take calls from my online friends at 3 a.m. And my number is +1-425-205-1921. I would help you out anytime!
Don’t you think he would have more luck just twittering you to call him…:)
Robert…merry christmas…work on your email inbox…then start publishing your phone, am sure 3 am anonymous phone id calling you is not important as michael phone id calling you!
plus comeon in real life ..you will be lucky by having 1 real friend and if you are really awesome you will get 2 ..but 2k on facebook plus 1k on twitter and 500 from my space days , another 200 from icq and 50 from yahoo and something like 20-30 when you where using something else…you end with 5k-10k “e-friend”,
e friend you all always remember this letter “e”.
Gebadia: you are probably right. But I do answer my phone at weird times of the night. One night at 5 a.m. I answered it and it was someone from the BBC.
amous: you would be amazed that I answer my phone from everyone. Heh, funny thing Mike called me the other night and I hadn’t resetup my iPhone so he wasn’t very impressed when I didn’t know who it was on the phone.
As for what real friendship is, it’s a continuum.
I’m drinking homemade beer right now sent to me by one of my online friends, so I can’t argue with that!
Really, the way I look at online friendship is that I add you if I want you in my network. If I stop wanting that for some reason I remove you. No need to make it any deeper than that.
Here is one for your Robert…do you think it is possible to find love from a Facebook feed? I don’t mean love right away but to have love evolve from a picture in a feed to something real, in person later?
Gebadia, I have met many people who have gotten married after meeting online. I’ve heard of this happening on Facebook too. It makes total sense to me. Heck, on Facebook you can really see a lot about a person and you can check out their friend network too. There’s chat there, plus photos and videos. You can really get a pretty good look at someone before meeting face-to-face.
And it happens the other way all the time, too. Maryam just met her best friend from elementary school that she hadn’t seen in 22 years. They found each other on Facebook.
then there is hope
thx
*thinking outloud – I’m not gonna call him and tell him about my philosophies on ‘friendships online’. I’m not going to tell him about WhichKind, a site I’m working on. I’m not gonna call him..*
Loic,I agree with you.Xmas 2 everyone.
N’importe quoi, me sone, Loïc.. +16502844111.
You’ve just said “anything knocks me out”. Call me ->appellez moi.
Good point. These are the true friends. The rest are not indispensable……
I don’t know what the definition of friend when it comes to all this – but I know depending on the platform, my behavior changes.
On Facebook and LinkedIn, I generally am only friends with people that I have met in real life. For me, this is a social interaction/real life business networking tool. For Twitter and pretty much everything else, I will follow pretty much anyone who follows me until I can’t deal with their noise (which usually means they are spam).
Don’t know if any of this is useful, but figured I would add my $.02
“Friends” are real people, and real life is not a “platform”
Those with whom we communicate with online *ARE* strangers!
There are people I communicate with online that are more my friend than people I deal with on a daily basis.
While I would concur that, for the most part, online relationships aren’t real friendships – to classify all of them as “strangers” isn’t taking into consideration the depth of communication one can have online.
And real life is a platform. We all operate under a similar structure and interface of common social norms. We adhere to certain rules and if we don’t, malfunction occurs. Maybe you don’t see a 404 error – but there is a structure to things that is just as artificial as online.
In the end, online and offline both rely on the person using them. I’ve had a person I only consider an acquaintance ask me to be in their wedding because I am one of their “best friends” and I’m sure I’ve been on the other side of the coin as well. These definitions can never truly be defined because they are so different for every single person….
@George Smith
It is intriguing the way some people here try to explain their online “friends” and “friendships” and consider them as similar to those in real life.
Actually, this attitude reflects the difficulties of having a true friendship: it takes understanding and tolerance… as opposed to online “friendships” [not] easily terminated by clicking on a button or by just turning the computer off.
You may refuse to admit it, but online “friends” will always be strangers, even if you meet them. The examples you offer are *really* the exceptions, and, my friend, real life is not a “platform” –it is just that: real life, with difficulties, pain, misunderstandings, constant frustration, etc. But it is ok if you choose to live “out there” making fake “friendships” and believing in them…
And now people have problems with the word “followers” because it sounds like a cult.
Well, we’re not going to make up new words for these things, so we’ll just have to deal with slippery definitions.
I’ve seen a lot of giving in the last few days: of time, expertise, and yes, money. Friends give to each other in many ways.
Scoble nailed this for me when he suggested that one should define online friend however one sees fit rather than worry about applying complicated or inflexible rule systems. I suppose this leads to some arbitrariness but it’s worked well for me over the years.
Mike before I mentally processed the picture or remembered you were single I thought “Wow, Arrington sure has a great looking family”.
Have a fine Christmas and prosperous 2009.
‘friendships’ word is very vast and meaningful and depend on person how to come in friendship….
http://www.oxyshopping.com
Is that Billy Mays-endorsed shopping?
Anyway, thanks for that nugget.
Two points
a) the word friend on social networks has no connection at all to friends in real life
b) this is an attention economy and you pay attention to things that are valuable to you
This determines behavior – for people who want a lot of followers it means you follow those that fllow you just to make them feel better – friendship in the real world is not implied.
For people whose professions doesn’t demand a lot of followers – they follow only interesting people – i.e. people who say/do things that add value to the person reading.
it’s always been like that – it’s just that the word “friendship” on social networks (starting with friendster and myspace) has been abused and misused to imply all kinds of non-existent relationships.
It’s not that complicated actually.
Of course. I bet that you are not 16 years old…
The guys at Socialfly once told me that on Facebook, everyone’s a friend and it makes sense because it sets you up in a good position to gradually become friends with someone whereas on LinkedIn everyone is a connection and it stops there, keeping it strictly business.
I like that definition.
“It’s not that complicated actually” –It is not.
Now, if anybody considers as “friends” total strangers sending messages to your computer or cell phone, you have a problem.
Kelly: define friendship.
Is it someone helping you out of a tough jam? I’ve had that happen thanks to my online friends.
Is it someone buying you a beer? I’m drinking homemade beer right now made by my online friends.
Is it someone who hands you the keys to their house? I’ve had that happen with my online friends.
Is it someone who throws you a party when you visit? In London my online friends have thrown me four parties so far, some of which had 200 people at them. Heck, Mike threw me a party in his backyard and we don’t really “know” each other that well.
Is it someone who’ll talk with you endlessly and put up with your bad humor?
Is it someone who’ll sleep with you? Hey, I’ve shared rooms with many of my online friends. I even stayed in a hostel with one at CES one year.
Or, is it something else? I keep hearing people talk about friendship and telling me that my online friends can’t possibly be real. Oh yeah?
kool …i will find better time than midnight and call you !
but using the term “friend” on any online social site is really over rated ..or they were trying to add human touch to online loneliness ?
Social Networks limited to just the people you know seems pointless.
There was an article on the Guardian websited listing ‘15 things you should never do on Facebook’.
I so totally disagreed with the guy that I had to write about it: http://www.clou...ebook-actually/
Why stick with the old rules of social interaction and connecting, when the game has changed so much.
Paradigm shift. Those who adapt to it will win.
I’ve noticed that having a virtual friend that I never met, makes it much more likely I’ll meet that person, than if they weren’t my virtual friend.
I also noticed that ambient awareness of my friends are changing, perhaps, my brain chemistry, for the better – I’m aware of many more people’s daily lives – since I’m seeing their news feeds flash before me.
Zuck is such a big thinker, a heavy hitter; right.
the question then is, after the fail party, sorry, conference in Paris and all the fuzz/fake PR around it (which was embarrassing to have it online, to say the least), if Michael and Loic are friends — or ever were.
good article, btw.
valleymonger: Loic told me he is inviting Michael to LeWeb next year. Answer is yes.
We all have forgotten the real meaning of friendship. True friendship is about giving and not about expecting something in return. Our present day life style is so stressed that we hardly find any time to share and enjoy lovely moments, which our older generations so warmly reminisces. Our online lives have killed friendships. We should now try to get out and leave our online lives. We should at least take out time for ourselves one hour once a week. Spending time with family and going out should be an must point on our “To do list”. Take a New Year’s resolution this year and try to build upon your lives offline as well.
You sound really, really old, dude.
I think he sounds really, really wise, dude.
You are so so right,people need to stop and think about what affect this has on their family life, when the real people that care the most are right there in front of them.
Solid article Mike, insightful. Happy Holidays!
@Virtual Web Symphony
The very concept of a friend will change. It may be changing already.
‘Real’ meaning of a friend? I think there is only a traditioinal notion of friendship. We like and respect it, but that does not mean it is a constant. Nor do I think that online killed friendship. It just changes how we make and maintain it.
Will you be my friend?
Happy Holidays,and thanks for all your great work and information this year. TechCrunch still Crunches!
An insightful article indeed. Got me thinking about the various offline acquaintances who are my online friends.
But loose friendships/acquaintances are important too, if you have read ‘The Tipping Point’ by Malcolm Gladwell.
Merry Christmas to everyone!!!!
Interesting thoughts. I don’t think the casual social user is even equipped to deal with noise?
I can help! An online friend is another lonely and pathetic loser just like you. There, did that help? Oh wait, you probably want to know if you’re a loser. Well, a good way to check is if you’re using Facebook, writing a blog, or reading blog comments. Oh, trust me, I won’t be reading yours…LOSER.
It’s funny that writing a blog, reading blog comments, and being on Facebook makes you a loser…. but reading and then commenting on a blog post (from a “loser”) about being on Facebook does not.
How does that reconcile itself using your twisted logic?
PS. Replying to this will make you a loser x 2. Or maybe it’s x 4 since contradicting yourself while calling someone else a loser earns a two-times multiple.
Interesting article and comments. I feel that the concept of friendship, though personal, is heavily influenced by our environment as well. For instance, I am French and having lived for 9 years in the US I can clearly see that, overall and given our cultural differences, we perceive friendships differently.
The interesting part is, particularly with younger people, that social networks are redefining friendships on a global scale: Facebook is the same whether you are in the US, France or wherever, and the younger generation is adapting to it in a similar fashion. The perception of friendship is now getting very similar in the US and in France and I am pretty sure that this is the same overall in Europe, and probably in Asia.
What were supposed to be tools to help you stay in touch with your friends, slowly end up defining what a friend is.
I totally agree
merry xmas
My tech friends are ones that I can communicate all day long using all geek’s tools.Merry Christmas,friends!
>>Ultimately, though, our culture is adapting just as quickly as the networks are.
couldn’t agree more… in fact, i’d say sometimes our culture is adapting *because* of how online functionality impacts our lives.
my mom is now quite savvy with Facebook, Skype Video, Flickr, & my blog in order to communicate & keep up with her grandkids. other folks i know change their behavior based on what they think will show up in the feeds of FB/FF. more & more people will be surprised to find out what “privacy settings” are all about (likely in negative ways) & figure out how to avoid previous missteps.
altho there will always be surprises & unpleasantries, you’d be amazed how fast people adapt once they realize what’s going on…
(whoops… sorry, meant to close the italics after the first line).
btw, let me mention again how cool it is using FB Connect for comments… super smooth.
i believe that the social websites like facebook kills the real friendship..
A frend is any one I believe can help in a jam.this can be a total stranger as long as is in a position to help a friendship arise, it can be for minute, days or forever as long as I belive they have gud intentions.
Really Pathetic Conversation {seesmic_video:{”url_thumbnail”:{”value”:”http://t.seesmic.com/thumbnail/JLSN2L3MW3_th1.jpg”}”title”:{”value”:”Really Pathetic Conversation ”}”videoUri”:{”value”:”http://www.seesmic.com/video/IqkXQKesYp”}}}
I agree, because it’s always a good idea to take advice on friendships and what ails society from someone who spends Christmas alone in their parent’s dark, cold basement. Always.
Markus,
If you are commenting to me comment what the fuck does that make you? Sigh. If you had a real friend he’d say “Markus dont leave a comment on Techcrunch trying to dis 1938 Media. You are the one who’s going to look stupid and weird.” and then you Markus would say “I don’t care I’m doing it anyway”. Then the real friend will leave, and you Markus will have this dialogue with me to start your christmas.
You weren’t really expecting anyone to take your rant seriously were you? I thought you were just doing another one of your “bitter guy” comedy bits.
I still don’t think anyone should take advice from you about what’s wrong with society and the human race. I’m pretty sure I’m safely in the majority on that one.
Sorry if that’s a “dis” (as you so eloquently put it) but it’s the truth.
Merry Christmas.
@Loren Feldman – Race? Are you talking about white people? Black people? Friendship is an emotion? My Business partnership must be an emotion as well then, huh? Failures? Like $100 million a year failures? or like, “You have disgraced your family”, failures?
Markus,
No we should take it from an anonymous commenter on Techcrunch. You don’t even see what a tool you are do you?
@auston Race? No, Im talking about moron commenters on Techcrunch debating the value and meaning of friendship.
“No we should take it from an anonymous commenter on Techcrunch. You don’t even see what a tool you are do you? “
I don’t recall ranting about what’s wrong with society and the human race in this thread (nice try though).
Maybe try a different comeback? The third time might be lucky. Let’s see if you can raise the name calling and profanity bar a little bit as well.
Ready…. Go!
Loren, I moved to San Francisco 6 months ago. I only knew maybe a dozen people and used Upcoming.org to find tech parties.
Fast forward to last week. A simple post to my facebook status or twitter status about wanting to go have a drink and I have people responding that actually are ready to meet up.
These are people I am really friends with and social networks haven’t failed me at all. My goal has ALWAYS been to turn internet relationships into real life relationships and I’ve done that. Internet friendships and real friendships are a two way street. I add people on Twitter and facebook that I met in real life and people that add me online always get a message from me and I hope to meet them in the future.
When traveling to a new city, i try to find people in my field that are up for meeting to have a drink. If you’re solely making and losing friendships via the web without any real life interaction with these people, that’s your fault but social networking isn’t a failure and has made my move across country a lot more pleasurable.
Merry xmas to all…
I don’t really understand why the debate is so intense over a word or it’s definition…
Human relations are just very diverse and complicated as there are billions of us on earth with different interactions if there is any. Friends, connections, fans, followers, however you want to call it, should depend on your lifestyle and how it is important to you and not how the next person defines it. Some people are very fine with their 80+ people network and some others are very fine with their 27000 people network.
I personnally respect everyone’s opinion but can’t accept those who just think that their opinion should be everyone’s opinion.
“The problem with this approach is that there is still a lot of social pressure to follow people back.”
It’s self-imposed. Work that out with a therapist.
Fantastic post! Everybody check out SocialMinder.com. You automatically add your Gmail contacts and your conversation history, and SocialMinder analyzes how often you talk to people. Then whenever you check in to SocialMinder, it tells you whether you should be checking in with someone via email based on your past discussion patterns. It’s a feature that should be turned into a Facebook app ASAP. Y’all agree?
@Loren Feldman – Race? Are you talking about white people? Black people? Friendship is an emotion? My Business partnership must be an emotion as well then, huh? Failures? Like $100 million a year failures? or like, “You have disgraced your family”, failures?
“So it’s sorta social, demented and sad, but social.”
http://www.imdb...t0088847/quotes
Slightly more serious commentary:
http://thenoisy...ocial-networks/
Mike: I highly doubt that Jessica’s column “inserted angst” into anyone’s life as a result of it being written. Most people recognize that many online “friendships” are based on loose connections or sometimes none at all. “Friendship” on the internet and what constitutes it is a purely subjective judgment, and should be left at that. It is foolish to fret over something so inane otherwise.
Scoble,
you are the poster boy for humanities aching loneliness.
Blog-Wank Alert!!
This thread made me think of the White Stripes song “We’re going to be friends”
http://www.yout...h?v=az8UDe6UQGQ
That is a great song.
Friendship is sharing Microsoft products!
The old touch and feel world had a totally different set of standards for defining levels of interpersonal relationships. It is unfair and unwise to try to use the same standards for defining “friends” in the Internet world.
I have friends from college that are in different countries whom I’ve seen after 25 years and have had a great time visiting with them Did the lack of close contact unmake us friens. Under the old standards I don’t think so!!!
I only accept people as my “friends” on linked in and facebook with whom I have had a cup of coffee, a beer, a meal, or the digital equivalent.
To me a friend has to be someone I know, not some link I collected along the way.
I argue this point with those who want big numbers all the time. They think there is really a connection or a friendship. BS unless they know you personally (even if it is virtually).
I have some exceptions in my contacts, but most I know first hand.
The definition of a friends has not really changed in the online social media world. But it is still new and needs time to play out that a digital link to a stranger is like having their name in the phone book. so what.
Great post but I wanted to add that I’m really sick of people saying “very informative” and then adding some stupid link to their blog. I never click ANY links in someone’s comments unless it’s from someone I know like Arrington and Scoble but you guys that post links, other than getting 10-100 clicks, no one is going to respect you or your website when they found it by clicking some comment on an article.
You spammers suck. Get off my Internets.
it seems someone deleted my comment from here, but what i wanted to say was this is an amazing post and really led me to introspect in a lot of ways.
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Most people are lucky if they even have one true friend… everyone else is just an acquaintance anyway, sure, acquaintances that we like, but why should online friendship be any different?…
people get too touchy on the subject of friendship… it’s fleeting, and in the end, nobody really owns anybody else…
There are only three reasons why you would purge someone from your SN .. http://tinyurl.com/6ssmvd