Yesterday we reported on Ning’s termination of its most popular premium widget developer, WidgetLaboratory. Although apparently justified, Ning removed all WidgetLaboratory widgets from its platform without warning to the community, and in doing so broke many of the social networks that had been created by its members. The decision was met with a backlash from the Ning community, as many members had spent hundreds of hours and dollars perfecting their homespun social networks.
Ning says that WidgetLaboratory has broken the platform’s Terms of Service, but hasn’t to specified publicly what violation it has committed (though we have heard that WidgetLaboratory had been warned multiple times). This may be the case, but Ning neglected to warn any of its members that the change was coming, leaving many of its top networks in shambles.
Today, WidgetLaboratory has decided to hit back. The company has written a blog post stating that it is open sourcing all of its widgets, many of which were formerly only available for a monthly fee, to allow users to get their networks back up and running. Users will be free to add, modify, or improve on each widget as they wish. The post also announces WidgetLaboratory’s free migration tool, which will allow Ning users to pull content from their social networks should they wish to move elsewhere.
The migration data will be available for users to use as they wish, but WidgetLaboratory plans to help users find open source alternatives to Ning where they will be able to set up shop (WidgetLaboratory won’t have anything to do with actually hosting or managing the networks).
I spoke with Spencer Forman, CEO of WidgetLaboratory. Forman says that Ning has only specified one violation in its terms of service - network degradation - and that Ning is simply being anti-competitive. He explained that they have had similar network quality complaints from Ning in the past, but that oftentimes it was actually a fault of Ning’s servers or setup, and not WidgetLaboratory’s (he says he will be releasing a full record of email and phone exchanges to support his claims). Finally, he says that Ning was uncomfortable with WidgetLaboratory’s success (the widget maker may have been collecting as much revenue as Ning itself), and that any other explanation is a smoke screen.
In any case, the bold move to open source the widgets puts Ning in a bind. If the site bans the widgets, users will skim through the code to find anything that could be in violation. If Ning lets them stay, then obviously the network issues can’t have been the real motivation behind WidgetLaboratory’s removal in the first place.
Update:
Earlier today Ning posted a response to some of the issues. Ning will be implementing a number of features to replicate the widgets in the next few weeks, and will try to take measures to a prevent any future lack of communication. Here’s an excerpt of how they will deal with such ToS violations in the future:
…Namely, if we have had to warn a third party developer, we want to provide some general way of letting you know about it before we remove them from the Ning Platform… Now, I can’t guarantee that we’ll always be able to do this. There are times when a third party developer’s actions require immediate attention and removal. We will always put the needs of the Ning Platform as a whole ahead of functionality on any individual network.
There’s already a pretty general way to notify users that you’re stripping a portion of their site: Email (blog posts work too). Ning needs to defend its users and its network stability, but it should have done something to warn its users beforehand.
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Way to go … but isn’t Ning still going to simply block these widgets, open source or not?
Ning will fail ! They don’t know how to handle their users.
Obviously Ning got jelous and wanted to get in on WL’s success, but now what will that Money Hungry Cow Gina do?
Take a step back and ask yourself if that comment was influenced by sexism. If Ning’s CEO was male, would you have called them a Money Hungry ? Probably not.
This is a very important battle - Thanks TC for keeping up the visibility - because basically the Network Platforms basically ask developers to increase the value of the platform in hopes of getting some $ - all on the come. Basically the Platform gets a huge boost in “FREE” development, and they dont have to decide whats a good feature, the user (or in this case the network owner) does. BRILLIANT!
But they can’t have their cake and eat it too - Obviously Ning’s customers value what WL does or they wouldn’t be so successful. This is not a case of “gaming the users” like iLike and others did in the early days of FB.
Great move open sourcing! The Platforms have to either support the independents or do all the dev and market testing on thier own!
They could block it, but it won’t look good, especially if Ning tries to charge for these features.
If they block it many users will just leave especially since this will create an opportunity for other Ning Competitors ..
Ning == EZboard 2008.
ning is a platform for non techies to create a social network on the fly.
you expect grandma and her knitting group social network will wade through opensource software? not likely.
move over widgetlabs. you got played like chumps. it’s ning’s network, and they can do what they want with it. if the users don’t like it, they’ll leave. but most won’t. they’ll just whine and live with it. such is life.
Woo.
You can’t say the people at WidgetLabs aren’t vengeance-driven.
That’s a terribly destructive move on their part, if they were as popular as everyone says they were.
How is it destructive? Ning hosed thousands of Ning network creators and WidgetLaboratories is just helping those networks get back on their feet. Keep in mind that WidgetLabs added tons of functionality that Ning simply doesn’t have. If you go read the comment threads you’ll find many networks that say there is no point in continuing as WL provided their core functionality - NOT Ning. Arrogance is the only thing that explains Ning’s move. It is why boy geniuses always fail the second (LoudCloud) and third (Ning) time.
Wait a second…
If the _CEO_ of WidgetLaboratory says they had one violation in NING ToS then that is one too many.
When did multiple violations of ToS become some kind of expected right where everyone pats each other on the back, singing songs, drinking beers, and saying it’s all good — and then only after the most flagrant (who decides) is there action metered out?
Violated. Past tense.
How long has WL developed such a long running and amazing track record of value to the users of NING? Is this in months? years?
Flip this to be if NING did not respond to a ToS viloation… how does that change the argument?
All that said, I could just be relying on Jason’s coverage here vs. having the fuller perspective.
Low blow from Ning.. BOO!!!
Yeah, Ning basically destroyed a profitable company that was built on top of their Platform for no real obvious reason.
If they have nothing to hide, why not clear the air and tell the truth? Surely they will care more about the PR backlash than abiding by their self-imposed bureaucracy about keeping rule violations private.
The so-called “rule violator” doesn’t seem to have anything to hide. And this is businesses and real money we’re talking about here. Not denying 14 year old girls various Apps on their MySpace/Facebook profile.
Even if Ning is in the right here, they seriously screwed the pooch here.
Brilliant move by WidgetLab. I am surprised that Ning has not issued an open statement about what happened. Are they going to let the ideas fester?
“We’ve tried nothin’ and we’re all out of ideas.”
From the statements so far, though, I’m under the impression that Ning is having scaling problems and WL made some features more popular than Ning was prepared for.
http://widgetlaboratory.blogspot.com/
“3) Open Source “Safe Harbor” Site Creation for business and other professionals. Was your business and reputation put into jeopardy yesterday? Did you feel like an idiot having to explain to your clients and associates why your site looked like someone mixed it into a blender?”
This one was hilarious though. Like you’re going to call your clients up and explain that the free social networking website you created with Ning ala EZBoard is missing a widget, and having them yelling at you frantically on the other end.
As if that’s ever going to happen.
If you want control your own Social network and have seemless Google Open Social integration, buy our software PHPSocialize. It will be on sale October 1rst at PHPSocialize.com
Ning will not control your database or your OpenSocial plugins. I have built a CSS editor in beta at TruEditor.com
Ning == EZboard to the extreme.
To bad KickApps bought the real EZboard. I bet they bogart the whole space by converting all those cheesy bulletin board owners. Most of them abandoned the service years ago.
I think that is a bad move for them. Specially if they try to charge for it.
This is a very fundamental management mistake on NING’s part. I thought they had a pretty good CEO? This kind of rash decision making and the lack of thinking out the action they took can really sneak up on someone later. It looks like someone created a 900lb gorilla and then could figure out to deal with it. Kicking someone out and then pulling the plug on something that is tied to so many others really didn’t work out, did it?
Nok - why is this a low blow from WL?
Ning has the right to enforce their TOS, however inelegantly, and WL has every right to open source their code.
Ning sucks
Correct ! lol
Ning belongs in the deadpool. All hype, no substance.
totally agree
Ning really doesn’t need WidgetLaboratory .
Ning already got #1 for web platform design. it is enough.
http://www.cityquery.com
…unless you know anything about history.
This Evening Ning stated they will try and warn its users of an impending removal of any vendor, but cant guarantee it. Great, so now they can tun off the next set of tools in this open network and cripple their user.
Someone here said us “grandma and her knitting group social network”s would not have the brains to move to opensource. You bet your knitting needle “youngin” we will.
Like others have said, I did nothing wrong, but Ning shut down over half my system and lost my content. If I rent your apartment, buy a Maytag washer, you rip it out cause you had a problem with Maytag.
Even a grandma can understand that.
knitting groups unite, opensource here we come!
Just because Ning has the _right_ to enforce their ToS anyway they want to doesn’t mean it was smart, or that this shouldn’t have negative consequences for them. Brilliant move by WL. How can Ning not understand that they are right now in the process of killing future growth by this ill-advised move?
I’m part of a very active Ning community. A few of us were playing with setting up a spin-off, also hosted on Ning. Not anymore.
do any of you guys write software????
if in fact, widgetlabs is really releasing their code open source (gpl/lgpl/etc…) then ning could implement the code within their system in pretty much any way they choose, without having to do anything else…
so, tell me again, just what the hell was/is wl trying to accomplish with this strategy?
also, without hearing both sides of this argument, all you have is a one sided bitch session.
peace….
Ever heard of the GPL?
Boom. WL sure has balls! Go get ‘em.
This is the beginning of the end for all application developers and the VC’s who have funded them……being controlled by the platform you affliate yourselves to is not a business model for the future as the platforms i.e facebook,myspace,ning etc control you and and kill you anytime they wish………RIP
why is that a brilliant move… just because it has the word opensource in it. It is really dumb move by WL… ning now just gonna take it and implement it themselves… can anyone explain that…
I was a reseller for widgetlaboratory and was shocked to see this happen. I have no opinion as to what happened, because I am not Ning or Spencer. I do not have all the facts in front of me, so I do not respond with anger towards either party.
I miss widgetlabs and their products, but I also operate a ning site that still must go on. This is something for them to work out and if widgetlabs were to come back I would resell their products again.
It is my opinion and my opinion only! If you did not know for sure what has really happened, you should not bash Ning or Widgetlaboratory. I am a strong believer that everything happens for a reason.
JP
It is my opinion and my opinion only! If you did not know for sure what has really happened, you should not bash Ning or Widgetlaboratory.
Welcome to the Internet.
Your comment is suitable for framing.
Hello Jay,
What does suitable for framing mean?
Thanks
JP
Ning has said tonight:
“in a case like yesterday’s where there had been multiple warnings and incidents ahead of our actions, ”
So for the first time, their CEO is stating on the record there were multiple warnings and incidents….before they took action.
It’s so obvious that Spence and the boys at WL are B-I-T-T-E-R!!!!
WL’s investment in their biz was NIL compared to what it has cost NING and their investors to develop theirs.
So WL comes along, offers a neat little suite of products and starts absolutely cleaning up… MAN, do not kid yourself - these guys had to be making a fortune every month!!! Think about the numbers.
Without NING, they would have never existed. They benefited greatly from NING.
Now, given those facts, if it were me, I would have sent Gina a bouquet of roses every day and sent Marc a handwritten thank you note every single day.
WHY IS NO ONE MAD AT WL!
They should have towed the line and protected their customers at all costs. But even Spence admitted he broke the ToS at least once.
Why? Why? Why? You were making so much @#$#@ money.
Idiot!!!!!!!!!!!
Marc and Gina are arrogant punks who think they can do whatever they want. Looks to me like WL is releasing their stuff opensource so that the all the BIG networks that got screwed can get back up an running. Good for them.
I bet they are bitter. If you invested time and money into promoting a platform and working hard to make it better only to have the rug yanked out from under you I’m sure you’d be bitter too.
They did not promote a platform. They spammed the shit out of every new network that started up.
And one more thing Spence, go ahead and make your software Open Source.
You’ll save NING a few weeks and a lot of money in development time.
Either way, NING will reverse engineer what they need and develop the rest - all will be ok, and better in no time at all.
The party is over WL.
It’s over.
You fail to realize this was a planned shutdown to get rid of a competitor. Yes, small compared to Ning, but their ideas and solutions became too popular and widespread, and probably Ning were afraid they would loose the control of future development with an even stronger WL userbase. Anyway, this was poorly handled by Ning. WL’s statement of releasing tools to create such a network on our own sites may not be revolutionary, but using my own site independently from any ad-driven/premium site where you more or less feel like being in a clamshell, clearly is something I will look into asap.
Too wide spread and popular? Only 2,000 networks out of a few hundred thousand used their WL - and WL fucked up the platform every other day.
The smart way to have handled this on gNing’s part would be to quietly develop your own replacement widgets and quickly flip the switch - banning WL and replacing them with your own in a single swath - all while giving the users 3 months free on your new widgets so they really have nothing to bitch about. unfortunately it seems that major decision makers @Ning may be slightly emotionally unstable and unable to think in such a ruthless manner. but hey thats what you get when you invest in your ex-girlfriend.
Why is killing folks that add functionality to your platform “smart”. If you are going to release a platform that has an API, you should be ready to support it — including performance impacts, which seems to be the only issue that’s been raised.
Seems like the bottom line is that Ning isn’t ready to support people doing anything with their platform other than running boring me-too networks.
Andreesen and crew are poser’s that are clearly not up to the technical challenge of supporting API’s.
If pmarca is a poser, what the hell are you or I? He’s got street cred and is battle hardened, got to give him that.
well - it’s a mixture of provocation, threat, new people responsible at Ning AND (maybe) emotion (on both sides). Just read my post below with some evidence…
fom - fit older men
The smart way to have handled this on gNing’s part would be to quietly develop your own replacement widgets and quickly flip the switch
Yeah that’s a great idea … if you don’t want anyone new developing products for your platform. Why would anyone invest anything into developing a business basedon NING if NING can just turn them off after copying their products?
Guess what? I have no SFTP access to my Ning site. It looks like they shut that down to prevent Network Creators from doing anything for now. This is really f*cked up!
Yep, we can’t even update our networks and we didn’t even purchase or use WL products! Unbelievable! If we had been in the middle of an important update or had to fix a high priority bug with our code extensions, well, we’d be F*@#&#ked. Thanks, Ning.
Ning is simply run by children and prima donnas. It’s a well funded playground. We know—we’ve interacted with them for over a year now with several Ning networks. It’s classic Silicon Valley gen-Y culture. It’s arrogance to the extreme. I’ll never understand why Andreesen installed Bianchi as CEO who has absolutely no management experience prior to Ning. I’m guessing he needed a yes-man or they slept together. Either way, the company’s executive team seems to be clueless about business practices and customer support, and very good at technology. I wish I could be more lenient, but so much more evidence points to ineptness. And yet Ning succeeds—so far. I think they simply have BIGMO now on their side.
Technically, I believe they actually have the makings of a decent architecture, technology and platform. Unfortunately, it’s slow and unreliable. Or their staff doesn’t know how to keep the lights on consistently. They’ll never admit it, but it still is perhaps the best white label SN solution out there for laymen and the price is right. Or maybe, you get what you pay for.
This situation is a sad chapter in Ning’s short history. They haven’t the gray hair to understand the consequences of what they’ve done. They median age must be 25. Whatever happened between Ning and WL is inconsequential. What’s of serious concern is how they screwed hundreds or perhaps thousands of unsuspecting Ning NCs by pulling the plug without notice. As someone else stated, just because they can, doesn’t mean they should. Clearly, they didn’t have the wisdom and caring to give members a chance to migrate off of WL software. It’s disgraceful.
It becomes clear after dealing with several of their staff, including the CEO, that it’s purely a numbers game, and they are not concerned with member happiness as much as they are Ning valuation. Marc has done a stupendous job at spin until now to raise over $104 million in capital, but it’s hysterical that the VC are so dumb as to entrust the company to neophytes. There’s a obvious lack of respect for customers. If you speak to any of their staff, they exude hostility and arrogance!
Would you believe Ning doesn’t even provide an SLA! They take no responsibility for poor performance. And every NC will tell you that performance has been randomly awful. They bring the network down without notice time and time again for an hour here, and hour there. If you are a serious SN with thousands of members to support, ads to serve, etc., this is unacceptable QOS. But what is the alternative if you can’t afford to develop your own SN and the competition is lacking? Ning is clearly a great way to putter around and play with social networking, but if you are a business, you’d better watch out. Ning is still the best game in town for the price.
This has become an instant, fascinating saga, and it’s not over yet, but I think Gina scared the pageezus out of their 200,000+ network creators by this sudden, rash move. Without disclosing the details of why they took this action, every network is at risk of having the plug pulled without notice or reason. That spells high risk in my mind if you are a business using Ning and are or are planning to earn revenue with your network. I am willing to bet thousands of NCs are already starting to thinking seriously about migration. We already made the decision to vamoose months ago but it takes time to migrate.
Sigh, with all the money Ning raised, you think they could afford a decent CEO and executive team with some business sense. Note to Ning’s Board: Wake up! If WL was a competitive threat, why not just buy them out? Or license their widgets for all users? If so, it’s classic “not invented here” syndrome. Truth is, Ning will no doubt survive this episode, but they’ve lost credibility already that’s hard to regain. I think they will lose networks and people will think twice about setting up a new network. This is viral stuff. Ning, why can’t you show minimal respect for your users and their needs? Good customer service seems lost in our times.
Well put, HC! I totally agree! They will fail miserably …
Great work Jason Kincaid! This is shaping up as a very important story in the social media space and it could have serious implications and instructive value for the future of any Web 2.0 mashup we already depend on.
This series of stories has gripped me so much I had to write at length about it own my own blog. Keep the updates coming Jason!
@HC is correct. Ning is a Gen Y wasteland. They have MAJOR architectural issues and are desperately searching for a platform leaders to fix their problems. In the past week I’ve no less than 5 recruiters call me on this same job. This place must be a circle jerk to work at…
Give me a break. Get over yourself.
Good article, I would like to see a follow up on this cat fight
Isn’t this the heart of the matter in the Ning vs. WidgetLaboratory dramolet? Just read the whole conversation carefully - VERY revealing.
fosat - The Future of Sex and Technology
UPDATE: just noticed the full email record on WidgetLabratories blog. What an awesome read!!!
Yeah, and it doesn’t really seem to show WL in a great light…
No, it doesn’t exactly show WL in a good light. It shows just what an arrogant asshole this Spence guy really is. Unprofessional is an understatement. It blows my mind that this guy thinks his emails will help his case. For God’s sake, get your finger outta your butt, and wake up Spence! You did this to yourself. Course, I think there’s even more to this story. I think this Spence planned the whole thing, thinking he could cause all this hoopla (gotta give em credit for that), but hoping that it would all end in his court, his favor, and make him a hero in widgetland with other SN platforms. IDK, if I were the CEO or CIO of another SN platform Co., I’d run for the hills. I wouldn’t touch this guy, or his pretty little widgets.
You go TN!
http://nichesocials.com/ning-a.....ty-widgets
If anyone wants to discuss this in an area separate from Ning and WL without any issues around stuff getting closed down, comments removed, etc.
Feel free to sign up and post … hopefully they will keep this link. Then we can keep the stuff here on NC related to Ning moving forward, and still be a place to vent, discuss issues with other third party widget providers, etc.
Dave
I also posted a blog about this as well…feedback welcome
http://nichesocials.com/ning-n.....atory-apps
Here is is the link to the email thread between Ning & WL
http://widgetlaboratory.blogspot.com/
Not using the Ning network or any of WL’s widgets I must say it’s the typical story you see between David and Goliath.
Unless there are some emails missing it’s clear that this move was orchestrated some time ago by Ning.
If Ning is to deliver similar widgets “in the coming weeks” then it really does become evident that Ning’s email exchanges are filled with malice and only as to show up as a “record” in future leagl proceedings.
The funniest email exchanges comes from Ning’s attorney. When I see an attorney using “technical buzzwords”, I chuckle.
Not having any interest in any of the two parties - but, given the choice of taking a side after reviewing the email exchanges I would back WL on this matter. As a matter of fact the defensive posture of Ning’s CEO warrants her resignation, imho.
The unfortunately loser in this “tug of war” are the end users. What a shame.
Thanks for the email link. This is easy.
1) WL has created some popular widgets that broke Ning
2) Ning made unannounced changes that broke WL
3) Gina wants to discuss
4) Spencer wants to discuss
4a) But, Spencer is protoypical arrogant nerd “dick” (wonder if Andreesen sees the irony)
5) Ning decided dealing with punk not worth it and pulls plug on WL
6) Spencer says Ning is just jealous of their brilliant creation (i.e., the usual nerd retreat cry)
The end.
See nerds - this is one of those situations where being nice about things instead of going hostile gets you where you want to go faster. You can be smart, “important”, and nice.
Good for them. What happened to open source?
Hmm… From reading the emails, seems like Gina either lost her temper, or never really wanted to negotiate in the first place. And I guess Spencer wasn’t very good at containing his emotions, either.
From the outside, its hard to gauge whether or not WL was really causing serious issues with Ning’s network, but this is just as much Ning’s fault as WL’s. Anyway, the elephant in the room is the fact Ning turned off Dojo without any notification. If that isn’t evidence of bad faith, it is incompetence beyond belief.
BreakingNews: Ning has turned off WebDav and SFTP access for Network creators for the time being.
PHP is no longer allowed in the Analytics box too. You can find this in the comments in the above networkcreators.ning.com thread.
“As part of this work, we also permanently closed a security hole in the analytics tracking box. Javascript and HTML should continue to function as usual.”
Is Ning more stable now after WL has been removed or is the platform just as it is and always has been. "………" (fill in yourself).
Ning is active giving their own alternative to chat.
Also WidgetLaboratory is suddenly offering WHO-IM (Who’s Online) again too.
Good News for NCs
fosat -
The Future of Sex and Technology
FYI, today Ning turned off their REST endpoints, with no notice.
http://blog.ning.com/2008/10/t.....dates.html
GETs just return empty and my scripts all died. Anyone else affected by this?
I posted a comment on that blog but the moderators didn’t want it on there. To their credit, they replied to me directly, but I hoped to start a discussion about who is affected by this. I must say, these rash moves by Ning aren’t the best way to build a community.
Update, in case anyone is still reading this thread:
The Ning discussion thread in which frustrated Ning network developers discussed the new platform “update” has been deleted by Ning. If you want to discuss the platform changes, try this blog post:
http://openeducationresearch.b.....ation.html
looking past all the bull; my conclusion would be that Ning saw the profit potential, and chose stick it to a site that they hosted in order to steal the profit for themselves.
personally I’d have to say they overestimated their position and will suffer the consequences of other companies who will not sign under them for fear of their ideas being stolen.
( I searched out information about Ning looking for anything that would suggest this kind of thing was happening before i would join their site)
BOY; AM IGLAD I DID