April 21, 2008

House Republicans Move To Increase H1B Visa Quota

Michael Arrington

155 comments »

Last Friday the House Republican Study Committee sent a letter to Nancy Pelosi and Steny Hoyer, the Speaker of the House and Majority Leader, respectively, requesting an increase in the current H1B visa quota of 65,000 per year to 115,000. They also request a 20% yearly increase in the cap every year, assuming the previous year’s quota was met. The letter is embedded below.

The current H1B program, which allows companies to bring highly skilled foreign workers to the U.S. for up to three years. It is a primary way for Silicon Valley firms to get enough technical employees, and there is almost always demand far outstripping the artificial quotas. The 1999 and 2000 quotas were already at 115,000. 132,000 H1B visas were approved in 2004 and 117,000 in 2005. But the cap was lowered again, and the 2007 quota was reached in just two months. The 2008 quota was exhausted before the end of the first day on which applications were accepted, April 2, 2008.

H1B visas are one of the primary Federal-level issues holding Silicon Valley growth in check, and it’s something I asked each of the presidential candidates I interviewed about. Listen to the interviews here, and see each of their positions on H1Bs here.

The letter discusses the absurd situation where U.S.-educated foreigners are unable to work here after graduation: “As a country, we are effectively handing these highly-educated, extremely desirable individuals a diploma and a plane ticket. The message we are sending is “You can learn here, but you have to work in another country.”"

The letter also mentions that Microsoft opened a facility in Vancouver, Canada in 2007 exclusively to put to work foreign-born employees that could not obtain work visas. These employees would otherwise be working in Washington.

Intel Chairman Craig Barrett, which has 2,000 employees with H1B visas, is quoted in the letter: “With Congress gridlocked on immigration, it’s clear that the next Silicon Valley will not be in the United States.”

As I’ve written before, it would be really super nice if Congress could just sort of get out of the way and quit screwing around with Silicon Valley - one of the most important economic assets in the United States. I hope this letter and associated Bill - HR 1930 - is acted on (you can give your direct feedback on the Bill at that link).

Sphere It

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April 21st, 2008 at 11:00 am

TechCrunch Japanese アーカイブ » 「卒業証書と一緒に航空券渡すようなもの」下院共和党議員らがH1Bビザ増加訴える

April 21st, 2008 at 11:20 am

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April 22nd, 2008 at 2:59 pm

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May 2nd, 2008 at 2:23 am

Comments

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goodguy

April 21st, 2008 at 2:58 am

check this website to see how indian companies abuse h1b visa

http://www.desicrunch.com
113.com

April 21st, 2008 at 2:59 am

Nice - and good for America too!
113.com

April 21st, 2008 at 3:02 am

@1 - Any good system is subject to abuse…
Fred Grott

April 21st, 2008 at 3:10 am

I think what is missed in the discussion is the positive impact of immigration on the level of innovation across all US industries..
Progressive

April 21st, 2008 at 3:13 am

Perhaps the only thing I’ve ever agreed with Republicans on before!
SearcH◆ EngineS WEB

April 21st, 2008 at 3:26 am

There should be more concern about educating the American Worker than bringing in more tech workers.

Many Americans can barely afford tuition and many have to put their education on hold to work for tuition to return to school

Many are joining the Military to get funds for college. In fact the Army and the Airforce are targeting cash strapped college age students via their advertising campaigns

Most of those are Black and Brown youths who will eventually be on the front line to fight Bush’s war. If they come home mentally ill or sick from chemicals - WHO CARES?! Certainly not you or those workers you are bringing in!

Not everyone is an A+ scholars who can get tons of free scholarships. Many have the potential but have not had the lives that offered an environment to fully develop

Not everyone can afford to do internships during the summer - because of wealthy families to pay for their education

The Americans have paid taxes all of their lives in the USA and MUST OBEY if drafted! Society owes them a chance to fully develop into adults that can reach their potential.

AMERICA MUST invest in helping everyone get a good education

Also, many adults are living paycheck to paycheck and would LOVE to enhance their tech education to become more marketable - they can not afford to do this and they do NOT work at companies that reimburse tuition of pay for tuition

America MUST invest in helping the current workforce reach their potential

Companies can still outsource if there is a dire need to get more tech savvy people.

But obviously you nor any of you elitist snobby tech friends can come out of your self absorb shell enough to care about those who are here and want to reach their potential

You are being selfish and short sighted and cold

If many of these ambitious youths and adults could afford to enhance their education, you would NOT have a need to import others here who dont give a shit about America or anyone living here.

The same young adults you don’t care about - HAVE to fight for your freedom if called - or land in prison.

Will any of your genius techies volunteer to do so?

You got some nerve putting this question to the candidates. Did you also show as much concern about the struggling underprivileged dying to reach their potential
Ryan Spahn

April 21st, 2008 at 3:31 am

We are in a bind because of this, as we wish to move our CTO from NC (has LB1 there ) to our offices in Philly. Will take over a yr to get his status changed. Huge bummer he cant join us there!
Vidar Hokstad

April 21st, 2008 at 3:46 am

Actually the applications were closed after two days in 2007, and it went to a lottery after three times as many applications as available slots were received. I know - I was one of the people losing the lottery.

In the end I’m quite happy it didn’t go through, since my wife is now in a very well paid job here in the UK, and I’m in a great place too, whereas if we’d ended up moving to the US she’d have had a hard time getting a work permit, and anyway wouldn’t have been able to easily get jobs even if she got a work permit (she did law - converting and passing the bar in CA with a UK law degree but without years of practice is no quick simple matter)

After having seen the difference in ease of hiring good people in the valley compared to UK (not because they’re not there, but because the competition for the great people is so much fiercer in Silicon Valley), the valley appeals even less to me now.
goodguy

April 21st, 2008 at 4:11 am

America is built on slavery and cheap labour. immigrants work cheap- mexicans ( lawn care), indians( IT ) etc- that is why america needs them.
immigration laws are built on slavery.PAST- white slave owners (sponsors)used blacks to capture other blacks and owned them . .PRESENT - IT companies ( sponsors ) own h1b visa holders.Like blacks won their freedom after hundreds of years - h1b visa holders get their freedom after they get their green card.- what happened to those days in 1970’s when foriegn doctors were let into this country with a green card without a sponsor.
Anita CM

April 21st, 2008 at 4:26 am

I guess Thomas L Friedman would be a happy man now given that all he forecasted seems to be taking shape. Anything good and of value can only be halted temporarily but cannot be stopped altogether. Sooner or later it had to happen and it’s happening now…

Anita CM
(http://www.vantrix.net)
goodguy

April 21st, 2008 at 4:26 am

@very nice and interesting comment -but American kids are too busy smoking pot , partying and chasing girls and it is not really “cool” to be nerdy in high school . how many black and brown youths want to mathematicians , scientists rather than being a rapper , football player or a basketball player - you would find this answer if you know what a ” ghetto” is
goodguy

April 21st, 2008 at 4:44 am

@6 most of the black and brown youths choose a lifestyle when they are young -it is a cultural shock for some of these to graduate from high schools and engineering schools -( it is easy to be creative , smoke and sing a song ) and how come sports and music are dominated by blacks
.how many black people work at google ?? may be google should start hiring black people so that they do not end up on front lines and make them work on the next generation search engine .I bet white people would prefer to see them on TV rather than in school or behind a computer
anonyjoe

April 21st, 2008 at 4:47 am

there are more lucrative opportunities outside of the US why would anyone with significant talent want to come and be a slave for GOOG, or MS
Shafqat

April 21st, 2008 at 4:54 am

Not only is this great news for the US and Silicon Valley, this has very positive impacts on the day-to-day lives of thousands of people who will now have new opportunities in the US. As a former H1B worker myself, I had to leave the US to start up NewsCred back in Switzerland. Of course, I would have loved to do it in Silicon Valley. One day I’ll be back hopefully!

@13 I’m not American and dont live in the US, but I can safely say that the country is still an amazing land of opportunity. its hard to replicate the entrepreneurial climate of Silicon Valley. That’s why people want to work there.
goodguy

April 21st, 2008 at 4:57 am

annyjoe- - you would not say that if you make $30 million of stock if you joined GOOG as an employee before they went IPO
Not a bug

April 21st, 2008 at 5:09 am

@6 - “Many are joining the Military to get funds for college. In fact the Army and the Airforce are targeting cash strapped college age students via their advertising campaigns”

You’ve just answered yourself, it’s in the best interest of the government (as it is now), to give them a good reason to join the army.

And dude, in this country if you want to make it you just work hard at it. I’m one of those H1b skilled workers, I love this country, I do give a lot for what happens here. I came here 4 years ago, literally with $2000 and a lousy programmer job where I was paid under the table, worked for 6 months hardly getting paid until I got my h1b. Then I started switching jobs, to the point that I now quit my job and have 2 startups (starting a 3rd), live on one of the most expensive cities in the country, and started bringing my family.

I know of people who have been here all their lives and have wasted all the opportunities. I also know american people who have never gone to school and make 250k as coders, they have an immense drive for success, they teach themselves and have a passion for excellence, no need to even go to school, just work hard and surround yourself with good people, this is indeed the land of opportunity.

If it happened to me, having real narrow chances of finding companies that would sponsor my visa, why can’t it happen to people that are born here, speak the language, and can work without any constraints for any company?

Because they’re lazy, dumb and spoiled. Because they’ve never really known what’s to live on an economy where you really have to work hard to get anything.

If there’s something this country needs at the moment is innovation and smart people coming in, believe me, nobody is going to be stealing jobs, there’s way too much demand, at least on the technology industry.

I’m finding out that reality now that I’ve become an employer, it’s very very hard to find people that are good and responsible.
Erick

April 21st, 2008 at 5:27 am

@Not a bug-

Bravo! I knew several of your type of hard working H1b’s. Great people with a drive for success.

@Goodguy-

Enough of the race baiting. Its cultural, not color related. If it was as simple as just hiring people of color, it would have been done by every corporation in America but it’s not that easy. Sorry.
jaime

April 21st, 2008 at 5:38 am

I’m a student here in America. I’m not lazy, dumb or spoiled, rather I have just had the bad luck to not make it to an A-class university. I have experience coding in languages from Python to C# to Haskell, yet I have not found a job. I’m graduating in a month and I’ve been rejected by the likes of MS, Google, Adobe, etc. So, I find it immense BS that these companies can pull in talent from other countries, while ignoring people like myself, in America, who are eager to work hard and learn.

Oh, and @goodguy, love the racism!
goodguy

April 21st, 2008 at 6:42 am

check this link- blackplanet with 20 million profiles get bought by radio one for 38 million dollars.

http://hiphopmusiq.com/2008/04.....n-dollars/
Bebo gets bought by aol for 850 million dollars( most of the poplulation not even american).
In early 2008 Bebo had over 34 million registered users and 7 billion monthly page views.- techcrunch
http://www.crunchbase.com/company/bebo
explains what??? may be jaime can explain- money does control lot of stuff in a capitalist society and money and race are —-
you guess- and
LM

April 21st, 2008 at 6:51 am

I am originally from former Soviet Union, and I hold a Ph.D. in Psychometrics (advanced statistical methods in psychology, and measurement of latent traits). There is less than a dozen schools in the US that offer degrees in this field, with only 20-40 people graduating every year. Psychometricians are in high demand, most of them going to work in such areas as educational testing or applied psychology. I qualify for H1B visa in the “advanced degree” category” (candidates with Master or Ph.D. degrees), with annual quota of 20,000. This year, for the first time and for some unknown reasons, number of applications in this category far exceeded the quota (32,000 vs. 20,000 available), so they had to run a lottery. I did not make it. Some lawyers I know say that it has to do something with those shady Indian firms that submit visa applications in bulk to import cheap labor for IT industry. These people come here for a couple of years, with main purpose to earn some money. No attempt at assimilation or integration, no cultural/social contributions to American society whatsoever. Meanwhile, people like me, with advanced degrees in psychometrics, nuclear physics, and other fields are left behind, while 80% of H1 visas are allocated to IT workers from India. This is my 5th year in the US, I speak fluent English, pay taxes, volunteer, have insurance, blog, know American history and geography, follow American politics.. Yet I am the one who will be forced to go to Europe, Arab Emirates or Asia, and use the knowledge I received in the US to help those countries to compete with your country.

The system is competely f&cked up, and needs to be changed. I do not suggest increasing the quotas - simply changing the rules of selection could improve the situation. I think in making decisions, country of origin and area of specialization should be taken in consideration, instead of dumping all applicants in one pool and picking winners at random.
Dave Reid

April 21st, 2008 at 6:54 am

I find it interesting when I see US programmers who complain about H1B programmers. I guess I thought the US was a free market and that the best should succeed? Further it seems well clear to me that I’d rather have people immigrate to the US and work here than come here goto school and then go home and compete against us.
goodguy

April 21st, 2008 at 6:55 am

mike moritz ( sequioa cap) - sergey brin , paypal founder levchin, oracle’s larry ellison ,mark zukerberg all have something in common in silicon valley and they love asians and know how to use them and put them in top positions .(plus these people are highly qualified).let these people go to ford motor company with the same credentials - they may end up as contract workers for their entire life time- you do not see any asian or indian- but you do see african american (3 out of top 10 ) in management.
move over to media

steven spielberg , micheal eisner , summer redstone , etc do have something in common and they put blacks on TV , in films because white people love to see them .
Nicole Simon

April 21st, 2008 at 6:56 am

jaime if you are an experienced and good programmer, you should not have a big problem switching over to _accepted_ languages which are in need.

You can make a mark in the scene by engaging in activities online which are in that area. Not to work for free but to work and make yourself known. If you only have applied at big companies like you described, you will need to face the fact that you do compete with many others and they can choose in what fits best.

But programmers, especially on hot languages are in high demand still. So if you are able to program (not just code) and beyond, as make yourself available by positioning yourself, I see no reason for you to not get a job.

As for the visas:
I agree that a country should start working with their own work force but then again silicon valley is not lollipop island. there is a whole lot of very smart people there and companies also like microsoft need more than just the avarage student.

To believe that it will stop companies with foreign work force is nonsense - they will just do what Microsoft has done to a more or less degree and work around the system of biz visiting visas if necessary.
Joe Jones

April 21st, 2008 at 6:57 am

I believe that US companies should pay higher prices for IT workers. No more H1-Bs. IT can be difficult work. For example, I pay my lawyer $250/hr to do simple tasks. Why can’t difficult IT jobs also pay similar wages. Higher wages will incentivize “retired” workers to come back into the profession and to fill our schools again. Also, if companies cannot afford those wages, their business models are probably poor to begin with.
goodguy

April 21st, 2008 at 6:59 am

@LM - I thought most russians come here as mail order brides and marry navy soliders to stay in the country - i must be a dumb stupid and spoiled american -:)
goodguy

April 21st, 2008 at 7:09 am

@nicole simon .
completely agree

i have heard that companies now use L1 OR B1 VISA and rotate them - these are completely exempt from visa regulations - no cap at all.
outsourcing has triggered globilzation and people need to adapt.
@LM -
I donot know if you are a male or female you can try contacting some navy soliders - if you are a female - but if you are a male - unfortunately american women prefer black men over russian men
LM

April 21st, 2008 at 7:16 am

@goodguy

No, I do not think that Americans are dumb stupid or lazy. That’s why I came here, fully embraced American culture, and would love to stay here not to make a quick buck but to become a fully integrated member of your society. I guess I am not your average Russian

but then again, i know Americans who think that “Mona Lisa” was painted by Monet, consider drinking wine to be “gay”, and believe that Muslims use their right hand instead of toilet paper so they refuse to shake their hands…
Bart

April 21st, 2008 at 7:17 am

The only reason the yearly cap gets exhausted so quickly is abuse by international body shops.

If the H-1B program had been used as intended by the framers, not a single American worker would have been displaced. Instead, hundreds of thousands, maybe a million or more (no one is keeping accurate records) American workers have been given pink slips and H-1Bs were brought in to replace them.

Often, the replacement workers were younger, were paid less, had unverifiable degrees and credentials, and/or were less skilled and experienced than the American workers they replaced. Not always, but a lot of the time. Wipro, for one, has admitted that it uses H-1Bs as part of an outsourcing process. This is a gross misuse of the program. Wipro has admitted that it uses the cost advantage of lower H-1B salaries as a competitive advantage in winning work away from Americans. Another gross misuse of the H-1B!

Foreign workers have also misused the H-1B by treating it as an immigration visa which it is not. It does not bar the intent to immigrate (as the student visa does) but it also does not specifically provide for immigration. It is a temporary work visa. An alarming coalition, one might even say conspiracy, has grown between foreign bodyshops and foreign workers. The workers overlook abuse in return for a chance to earn a nest egg and/or immigrate here.

The ONLY proper use of the H-1B visa is to temporarily fill spot labor/skills shortages until an American can be developed or found for the job. It is wildly abusive to use this visa to replace American workers, to undercut American salaries or workplace rights, or to facilitate immigration. If the H-1B program was being rightfully used, it is hard to imagine why we would need a yearly cap of more than a few thousand, at most.
Bart

April 21st, 2008 at 7:22 am

Don’t look now, but foreign graduates are SUPPOSED to return to their native countries and build up their own nations. It’s a condition of the student visa.
LM

April 21st, 2008 at 7:32 am

@Bart

You are talking about J-1 visas, when foreign students from developing countries are receiving scholarships and other financial support in order to obtain degree in the US. Upon graduation, they MUST return to their home countries, and I believe this is right. But most of F-1 visa students who come here, come here at their own expense - that is the reason why US universities are so interested in international students, because we pay for our tuition and living expenses. Some of us do receive scholarships, some work as graduate or research assistants, but majority of international students rograms PAY for their education from their own pocket or other non-US sources, bringing billions of dollars to US economy.
Shannon Whitley

April 21st, 2008 at 7:32 am

I am fully-aware of the economics, but I can’t help thinking that we need to focus more on encouraging the use of our own workforce. It’s a shame that patriotism can’t figure into these decisions. Yes, we have a long history of exploiting foreign workers for low wages, but whenever we look at our history, we regret it.
noel

April 21st, 2008 at 7:36 am

Why not simply let highly educated people immigrate to this country? Why do we need to create a tier of second class workers who are highly educated, but do not have the same freedom of movement within their industry?

It seems to me like the only reason to create H1B visas is to drive down tech worker salaries. When we start having H1B visas for tech startup CEOs and not for their employees, I’ll start supporting it.
goodguy

April 21st, 2008 at 7:37 am

@bart
that is the whole reason they need to get rid of the ” slave owners” and let the government regulate who can come in without these body shops -
first preference to people who go to school and
@LM - we do not want foreigners to assimilate - you are not american- you will not have the mind set - americans do not believe in a communist society - you will never understand what football is , what an american apple pie and most americans do not do the things that you do ( pay taxes blah, blah etc) except speak english -since russian economy is booming (like india) you can go back as lot of indians are leaving US to go back to their country as they do not want to assimilate/ integrate.
Bart

April 21st, 2008 at 7:44 am

We need to scrap all the guestworker visa programs until all Americans are back to work, and not just underemployed either. Haven’t the visa hopefuls noticed that America has entered a recession and the mass layoffs of Americans have already begun?
goodguy

April 21st, 2008 at 7:53 am

bart
@ unfortunately lot of celebrities , models , auto executives (carlos ghosn)
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Ghosn) toyota that we need work on visa and we need them because we cannot make good cars .I do not want to go home and switch my TV off
Bart

April 21st, 2008 at 8:00 am

Don’t look now, but Hondas and Toyotas are made in America by American workers. Check their websites, they have plants here and have for years.
weaver

April 21st, 2008 at 8:17 am

The aggregate NCES education and BLS employment figures do not support a shortage in skilled personnel. Prior to 2000, American degree production for citizens/permanent residents and employment growth for college grads were relative.

The delta between college degrees and American colleges degreed employment was a shortfall 2,061,405 jobs in 2006. Meanwhile, 1,558,272 initial and continuing employment approval were granted to H-1B non-immigrants 2000-2005.

The BLS Unemployment level of College Graduates went from a low of 559,000 in 2001, to an all time high of 1,221,000 in 2004.

The total of temporay resident postgraduates from American colleges in 2005, was 90,944 — well under the 120,120 visa EB green card program.

The H-1B visa should be renamed to the H-1BondedServitude visa.

http://immigration-weaver.blog.....es-vs.html
goodguy

April 21st, 2008 at 8:24 am

@bart
true agree-but forget silicon valley and look at detroit job market and housing market -layoffs and buyouts -the big 3 has lost major market share and that did not see the japanese hiring these people and relocating them
check these articles

indian call center lands in ohio

http://money.cnn.com/magazines...../index.htm
indian software firm to outsource to us

http://www.npr.org/templates/s.....d=14204620
As offshoring evolves, Indian firms even hire Americans
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/b.....horing.htm

if japanese and indian hired enough americans we would not see
this recession coming and one more thing chrysler was recently bought by feinberg controlled cerebus who has something in common with mike moritz, mark zukerberg and summer redstone
why is not micheal arrington covering any isreali startups anymore??
IS

April 21st, 2008 at 8:28 am

There is no point in increasing the H1-B cap if you don’t fix other part of the problem the caps on Permanent Residency aka Green cards. You are just moving the problem further down the road when the people with H1-Bs have to go back to their own country with the years of experience in the US to work for companies in other countries competing with the American companies.
LH

April 21st, 2008 at 8:40 am

Personally I’d like to see H1B’s gone forever. I’ve seen and felt the abuse of visas. It’s time for american companies to invest in american workers.
ABITV

April 21st, 2008 at 8:54 am

While I’m not against foreign workers entering the US - I do feel the sentiments voiced by the great majority of comments on this post points to one glaring issue - the American worker and in this case the American Engineer is now forced to compete in a global marketplace.

Industry watchers have been saying this for the past 20 years and it has truly come to fruition. After working in Silicon Valley on and off for 20 years - I was amazed at how the demographics of this region has completely flipped over the past 15 years.

It’s utterly amazing - the impact of the Indian Engineer has completely changed the make-up and the dynamics of Silicon Valley. It’s too early to say if it’s for the better or worse. But it is fairly obvious that the impact of this global playing field has forever changed how the valley works.

For example - 20 years ago (1988) the average software engineer with a BSCS Degree and 5-7 years experience could easily make around $80K per year. How do I know, because I was one of them! Guess what the average salary of that same engineer (5-7 years experience, BS/MS Degree) is today? It’s still $80K per year!!!

20 years ago we were told that there would be a staffing shortage of in the technical fields (scientific, medical, business, etc.) and that shortage would last the next 40 years. Fastforward 20 years later - the jobs are still there but the demand AND the salary for the American Engineer is stagnant or even waned.

Why? Because we Americans failed to understand the impact of the global marketplace. As a CEO, why would I pay an American Engineer $100-$110K per year when I can get a comparative foreign talent for $65K-$80K??

The impact all of this has had on the valley is to force many young and college age engineers into entrepreneurial pursuits - it simply does not pay to work 60-70 hours per week for some company that when the first sign of trouble hits are willing to move development, QA, Support and Sustaining Engineering jobs over the pond!

It’s quite ironic that as an engineer I was and still am directly impacted by the industry’s transition to cheap technical labor. Now as an entrepreneur I have lots of coding and graphic design projects I outsource - on average I award 1 in 5 jobs to American developers — why? Because they simply cost more than foreign developers and graphic artists. Sure there are language and time zone barriers - but I know that I can get a comparable work product for about 30%-60% of the cost of an American developer.

It’s sad - but it’s reality. So the issue here isn’t really H1B visas… it’s figuring out how the American Engineer will ultimately compete and survive in a global marketplace.
lol!

April 21st, 2008 at 9:07 am

Either give indians visa to work here in the US and pay them here
or
let the whole IT outsource to india or china with much much lower rates….
you choose…

cant ppl learn from the Car industry… its already gone to china….
what else they wanna outsource the whole busines sector? banking industry?…

the fact is Businesses will always look to cut down cost… and american worker is twice expensive!
Peter

April 21st, 2008 at 9:25 am

Leave Silicon Valley alone! Leave Silicon Valley alone. Right now!!

On a serious note, Indian workers are living 10-to-an-apartment for the first two years they’re here because they don’t get paid anything. Minimal, illegal rates. No OT. Their recruiting firms are criminals - surprise. To fix that problem, make transferring H1-B cake. Right now H1-Bs are captive, so IT firms can run roughshod over them. It’s a brutal regime. Big companies love it b/c they get great talent for 50% cheaper. M.A. and politicians will talk about ‘competitiveness’, but they’re just trying to keep thing tilted in favor of business over labor. This is America - there will always be plenty of unemployed people. It’s the only way to hold down wages.

Other than that, I say tear down all borders, everywhere. Down with the nation-state and artificial lines painted on a map. Better to have the masses decide where we want to live, rather than it be directed from on high by our betters - multinational corporations.
Brian

April 21st, 2008 at 9:29 am

Hey Bart. Have proof to back up your claims?

I’ve worked on an H-1B at several major high tech companies now, and I certainly haven’t been paid any less than the average worker, nor have my H-1B colleagues.

The idea that one could get in with an unverifiable degree also seems like a weak claim - have you ever applied for a visa? Those buggers are strict and thorough!

It’s very easy to scapegoat the immigrants and visa programs instead of looking in the mirror when you can’t get the high tech job you want.

Are there examples of companies that abuse the H-1B? Maybe. Is it a widespread problem or otherwise somehow the norm? Not from my vantage point. I’d love to see data otherwise instead of friend-of-a-friend anecdotes.

@weaver: Having a random arts degree from a random US college does not mean that you’re a suitable employee for a high tech company. These companies have very high hiring standards. They’re not taking low-quality employees from outside the country either.

Take any economics course - having an influx of highly skilled workers into your country is a boon for any economy. Bart, your proposed changes would harm the US.

Agreed with everyone who talked about fixing the Green Card program too.
Brian

April 21st, 2008 at 9:32 am

@Peter - H-1Bs are easy to transfer from one employer to another.
ABOUT TIME

April 21st, 2008 at 9:43 am

As a recruiter in the tech industries, this is long over do. We are starved for talent and god knows US schools won’t be turning them out anytime soon
ABOUT TIME

April 21st, 2008 at 9:45 am

This ain’t the 90’s anymore, I pay an H1 the same money I pay a US worker
hoapres

April 21st, 2008 at 9:56 am

Silicon Valley is hardly in a growth mode. Young Americans are rightly choosing to avoid IT careers because of the extremely grim job prospects. If you go to h1bfacts dot com then you can start seeing how the “best and the brightest” actually get PAID. Congresswomen Gifford sends a bill to increase the H1B cap to 115,000 but ignores the fact that H1Bs being Sonora school district science teachers get paid $27,500 a year. Take a look at what University of Arizona (being in her district) get PAID. If a true shortage existed then wages would go UP encouraging young Americans to study science and engineering. You see a job on Craigslist in Denver, CO requiring a 4 year college degree for $24K a year.

Another failed argument is “If we don’t give high tech companies more H1Bs then they go overseas” ignores the FACT that is EXACTLY what happened in 2000 and 2001. The high tech companies got an H1B visa increase and then they used those H1Bs as INSOURCING visas.

INSOURCING is defined as the TEMPORARY importation of H1Bs working with Americans to export their jobs. Concord, CA BofA employees in 2002 as a condition of their severance had to work with Indian H1Bs to train them so the jobs could be exported.
jaime

April 21st, 2008 at 10:02 am

@Nicole Simon

The languages I mentioned were just examples; I’m not trying to post my resume here. I don’t know what your definition of “_accepted_ languages” is (maybe Java), but the point is that I have experience in different programming paradigms, so that knowledge is easily transferred to learning new languages. Logically, one would think companies to prefer programmers that are willing to look beyond Java.
Bart

April 21st, 2008 at 10:38 am

To Brian: yes, the government archives the truth about what H-1Bs are being offered in the DOL LCA database. A few of you are paid very well. Many are not. As for not having the high tech job I want, I happen to be an IT hiring manager, so I know how silly it is to claim a talent shortage in America first hand. What is harming the country is flooding the labor market and devaluing what once were decently paid professions.
Brian

April 21st, 2008 at 10:46 am

@Bart

Where can we find the DOL LCA database & comparisons of H-1B salaries versus salaries given to citizens?

That’s great to hear that you’re an IT hiring manager, but I don’t think there’s exactly unity among hiring managers and recruiters - even witness comments #44 and #45 by ABOUT TIME. Also, for my part, I’ve taken part in plenty of recruiting events, resuming screenings, and interview loops, and can attest to it being extremely difficult to find talent.

My company has many open job reqs that have been unfilled for months because we can’t find adequate talent.
james

April 21st, 2008 at 10:47 am

Man, are you ever wrong about this. This is soley an exercise in exporting labor costs. What mechanism would you suggest to have someone who picks a field with demand for certain trained skills do to raise their lot in life when the government can unilaterally dilute their value?

Here’s an idea, because CEOs may make much less overseas, let’s unilaterally require that CEOs make no more than 5X the lowest paid contractor OR employee of an organization.

You are so disingenuous.
hoapres

April 21st, 2008 at 10:48 am

>> Brian wrote <> I’ve worked on an H-1B at several major high tech companies now, and I certainly haven’t been paid any less than the average worker, nor have my H-1B colleagues. <> The idea that one could get in with an unverifiable degree also seems like a weak claim - have you ever applied for a visa? Those buggers are strict and thorough! <> It’s very easy to scapegoat the immigrants and visa programs instead of looking in the mirror when you can’t get the high tech job you want. <> Are there examples of companies that abuse the H-1B? Maybe. Is it a widespread problem or otherwise somehow the norm? Not from my vantage point. I’d love to see data otherwise instead of friend-of-a-friend anecdotes. <> @weaver: Having a random arts degree from a random US college does not mean that you’re a suitable employee for a high tech company. These companies have very high hiring standards. They’re not taking low-quality employees from outside the country either. <> Take any economics course - having an influx of highly skilled workers into your country is a boon for any economy. <<

Take another economic course. Supply and demand. If you can increase the supply then the price (being wages) goes down.
hoapres

April 21st, 2008 at 11:02 am

Brian writes

I’ve worked on an H-1B at several major high tech companies now, and I certainly haven’t been paid any less than the average worker, nor have my H-1B colleagues.

H1Bs are routinely paid less than Americans. 4 wage scales exist for H1Bs and the vast majority are paid at the lowest wage scale. You can visit the website h1bfacts dot com which is a work in progress that accesses the h1b database for employees salaries.

The idea that one could get in with an unverifiable degree also seems like a weak claim - have you ever applied for a visa? Those buggers are strict and thorough!

Afraid Not. H1Bs are given out like Mcdonald cheeseburgers. Employers simply fill out an H1B application which is rubberstamped by the immigration authorities.

It’s very easy to scapegoat the immigrants and visa programs instead of looking in the mirror when you can’t get the high tech job you want.

I don’t blame the immigrants but the government for destroying middle class American jobs.

Are there examples of companies that abuse the H-1B? Maybe. Is it a widespread problem or otherwise somehow the norm? Not from my vantage point. I’d love to see data otherwise instead of friend-of-a-friend anecdotes.

Define abuse.

The H1B program was intended to keep wages down. The NSF published an infamous study in 1988 claiming a science and engineering shortage was on the horizon and that foreigners should be brought in to keep wages down.

The H1B program is working EXACTLY as intended.

@weaver: Having a random arts degree from a random US college does not mean that you’re a suitable employee for a high tech company. These companies have very high hiring standards. They’re not taking low-quality employees from outside the country either.

Tough Luck.

IT for the most part is an economic endeavor not requiring true geniuses like science. The output is not the result of a solitary genius (or better described as a collection of geniuses) Einstein for relativity or Bohr, Heisenberg, Planck, Dirac in quantum mechanics. You need a certain amount of aptitude to do IT work and unemployed Americans exist in thousands if not hunderds of thousand that can do the work.

Companies bring in H1Bs SOLELY because of cost. If these H1Bs truly are the “best and brightest” then they should be paid MORE (and probably substantially more like 50%+) as they are so valuable to justify the additional wages.

Not the case as H1Bs are paid LESS.
John

April 21st, 2008 at 11:06 am

It is about lowering wages but is going to kill creativity in I.T. There is no shortage of workers! Ask any h.r. person. They receive hundreds of resume for each position.

As usual companies would rather look for short term benefits and treat I.T work as a commodity like electricity bill.
Ryan

April 21st, 2008 at 11:07 am

I don’t have anything against the free market, but let’s not lie, people. The lack of foreign workers is NOT “holding back” tech industry growth. There are PLENTY of skilled, talented programmers already living here who are ignored in favor of cheaper foreign labor. I’m sure we all know plenty of ex-programmers who got out of the field because they are too experienced (read: companies won’t pay them). Hell, I’ve got 8+ years doing embedded systems programming, and I doubt I’d be able to find a job back in the industry if I tried!
hoapres

April 21st, 2008 at 11:11 am

Brian writes :

Where can we find the DOL LCA database & comparisons of H-1B salaries versus salaries given to citizens?

Try h1bfacts dot com

Brian writes

That’s great to hear that you’re an IT hiring manager, but I don’t think there’s exactly unity among hiring managers and recruiters - even witness comments #44 and #45 by ABOUT TIME. Also, for my part, I’ve taken part in plenty of recruiting events, resuming screenings, and interview loops, and can attest to it being extremely difficult to find talent.

Qualified unemployed IT people litter the streets. More likely we are dealing with nonjobs being that the job has been defined such that noone qualified exists to do the job. The company is looking for something that doesn’t exist like a five pound butterfly.

A shortage of five pound butterflys (e.g. looking for a .NET developer with 10 years of experience) does NOT mean that a shortage of butterflys exist ( e.g. people capable of doing .NET work)

Brian writes

My company has many open job reqs that have been unfilled for months because we can’t find adequate talent.

We are dealing with nonjobs. If your company was serious about hiring someone then it doesn’t take months. If you are looking for a five pound butterfly then you can be looking for years.
Brian

April 21st, 2008 at 11:14 am

This isn’t a matter of supply and demand, really. Sure, at a high level, with globalization and fully open borders, there might be some downward pressure on wages. If you want to implement protectionist policies and isolate yourselves, that’s another discussion.

This is more about companies not being able to meet their minimum standards for talent. Of course there are enough American workers with college degrees to fill all these H-1B jobs. But are they a) holders of degrees in relevant programs (sorry, an arts degree at a small state college won’t cut it), and b) high caliber, high talent workers? They aren’t.

There’s a minimum bar needed for these jobs and the entire supply of American workers just ain’t cutting it. Bring in foreign workers and the entire economy prospers by ensuring that American companies can compete and thrive in an increasingly global marketplace.

I have little sympathy for the American worker that doesn’t have the skills to compete in the world - and it’s not the government’s job to protect and coddle them. It’s the government’s job to give them the opportunity (education!) to succeed. That’s where we need improvement - education, to ensure we can crank out talent and compete. We don’t need policies that only bring up walls and doom us to the global future.
John Q

April 21st, 2008 at 11:32 am

There will soon be a major backlash against Indians and other slave workers that are being imported wholsale by American corporate interests just to drive down wages in America. I know whenever I see Indians coming from any of the towers where I work in SoCal. I now get angry thinking about the displaced American workers. Indians are not smarter or better eduacted for the most part. They’re salves, that’s all there is to it. They come here taking low paying jobs and Americans are starting to get angry about that. How would Indians feel if Amricans were pouring into mumbai or bangalore by the millions stealing jobs away from natives. There will be civil unrest before too long and not only will the people who have made these decisions to subvert America suffer but so will the thieves who have come to take American jobs for slave wages.
Brian

April 21st, 2008 at 11:32 am

Hmm, let’s look at h1bfacts, then.

I like how when you click to view an individual company it starts with the lowest wages first. Nice.

I clicked on the top H-1B employer, Infosys. There are 1733 entries. The jobs appear to be all over the US - Atlanta, Charlotte, etc. The median wage for Infosys is $73,206 for a Programmer Analyst (entry 866).

The median wage at Tata is $62,700. At Wipro, it’s $79,000. At Microsoft, it’s $84,000.

Next, I went to Google and searched for “programmer analyst average wage” (without the quotes). The third result, PayScale, brought me to a page where the national average salary for Programmer Analysts with 1-4 years of experience is $50,300. For 5-9 years of experience, it’s $59,100.

It sounds to me like H-1B salaries are much better than the national average. And this is the website that you pointed me to!

Want to try again, guys?
hoapres

April 21st, 2008 at 11:35 am

Brian writes

This isn’t a matter of supply and demand, really. Sure, at a high level, with globalization and fully open borders, there might be some downward pressure on wages. If you want to implement protectionist policies and isolate yourselves, that’s another discussion.

hoapres response

Of course it is a matter of supply and demand. IT for the most part is an economic endeavor and NOT science. IT has a bigger problem in that it can easily be exported and is going to happen no matter what. If you flood a market with low cost labor then wages are going to be either stagnant or decreasing.

Brian writes

This is more about companies not being able to meet their minimum standards for talent. Of course there are enough American workers with college degrees to fill all these H-1B jobs. But are they a) holders of degrees in relevant programs (sorry, an arts degree at a small state college won’t cut it), and b) high caliber, high talent workers? They aren’t.

hoapres response

Another big scam that has been floated around is the overreliance on credentials. We don’t have the people with the right degrees or training. Hate to give you the bad news but CS wasn’t even a degree program when computers were invented. Using your definition of “qualified” is again akin to companies looking for a five pound butterfly.

Tough Luck.

If American companies don’t like the qualifications of Americans then they can train them on the job or get out of America. Most American companies really aren’t American anymore but global corporations.

Brian writes

There’s a minimum bar needed for these jobs and the entire supply of American workers just ain’t cutting it. Bring in foreign workers and the entire economy prospers by ensuring that American companies can compete and thrive in an increasingly global marketplace.

hoapres response

Tough Luck.

Don’t like the quality of American workforce then get out of America. I don’t see how bringing in legions of foreigners to the U.S. helps unemployed Americans. I agree with you that we are having a global marketplace and it is going to get rough. Young Americans are understandably pursuing NON IT careers like law or medicine with much better job prospects.

Brian writes

I have little sympathy for the American worker that doesn’t have the skills to compete in the world - and it’s not the government’s job to protect and coddle them. It’s the government’s job to give them the opportunity (education!) to succeed. That’s where we need improvement - education, to ensure we can crank out talent and compete. We don’t need policies that only bring up walls and doom us to the global future.

hoapres response

Tough Luck to corporate America. And again you mistake CREDENTIALS (i.e. college degrees) with EDUCATION (e.g. true cognitive reasoning skills)

Companies (and academia) peddle the myth that CREDENTIALS equals EDUCATION. Hardly the case. Lincoln was clearly highly EDUCATED but had NO CREDENTIALS. If Lincoln went to Harvard then Harvard would take credit for Lincoln. The truth is that BRIGHT people (assuming Lincoln went to Harvard) made Harvard instead of Harvard making Lincoln.

AND

No it is NOT my responsibilty to TRAIN YOUR workforce. I agree that society should provide educational opportunities for all but specific skills are taught at the employers expense (called salaries). Young Americans go to college for the most part to get a good job. (i.e. vocation). If the return on investment does not exist then young Americans won’t be getting those degrees.
Bart

April 21st, 2008 at 11:38 am

I am astounded that Brian is having trouble filling positions. Whenever I have an opening I’m swamped with great people. Of course, I’m willing to hire older workers, minority workers, female workers, etc., so perhaps that’s why I see such a huge native talent pool whenever I stick my head out of my office. I have never had a bad hire, and I have grown my business every year over the last 6 years by hiring American workers. What talent shortage? Sounds to me like the ‘Brians’ of this world have a problem with their perception of American workers.
Charles

April 21st, 2008 at 11:39 am

The article is misleading on one important point. Foreign students who earn graduate degrees (MS, PhD) in the USA get their H1B visas from a different pool of visa’s. The graduate student visa pool has 20000 visas and isn’t typically exhausted until JULY.

This makes sense as we really don’t want or need more BS educated people from foreign countries. They’re just grunt labor, not true tech innovators, and drive labor prices down. This lowers the standard of living for everyone. The MS and PhD’s are a different story, they are the tech innovators and help keep the USA on top technically.
Adam

April 21st, 2008 at 11:45 am

I would love to have a public auction. Let’s have the govn’t auction off 120k of these visas each year (money goes to medicare or some other wasteful goven’t program). If companies really think these graduates are worth hiring (more so than citizens) they’ll be happy to be the fee.

Everyone is happy.
Bart

April 21st, 2008 at 11:46 am

Where is Brian looking? I went to http://www.h1b.info/lca_job_li.....;year=2005

And found, right on the first page, an order by Infosys for 100 Programmer/Analysts at $22,744/year. These entries may also be an illustration of a common trick, to certify the wage in a lower paying part of the country then move the worker elsewhere. This particular entry lists two areas: Quincy, MA and Shenandoah IA.
hoapres

April 21st, 2008 at 11:47 am

Brian writes

Hmm, let’s look at h1bfacts, then.

hoapres responds

Not my website but it is a work in progress.

Brian writes

I like how when you click to view an individual company it starts with the lowest wages first. Nice.

hoapres responds

O.K.

Brian writes

I clicked on the top H-1B employer, Infosys. There are 1733 entries. The jobs appear to be all over the US - Atlanta, Charlotte, etc. The median wage for Infosys is $73,206 for a Programmer Analyst (entry 866).

hoapres responds

You might want to look at the University of Arizona. Sonora school district. Visit the Dice dot com discussion board regarding Giffords.

Brian responds

The median wage at Tata is $62,700. At Wipro, it’s $79,000. At Microsoft, it’s $84,000.

hoapres responds

I don’t think you are correct. And median is not the only indicator. Some of Tata openings are a LOT less than $62K.

Brian writes

Next, I went to Google and searched for “programmer analyst average wage” (without the quotes). The third result, PayScale, brought me to a page where the national average salary for Programmer Analysts with 1-4 years of experience is $50,300. For 5-9 years of experience, it’s $59,100.

hoapres responds

Not an accurate comparison. Tells us nothing. We need to do an apple to apple comparison. A Google PhD in CS is hardly average.

Brian writes

It sounds to me like H-1B salaries are much better than the national average. And this is the website that you pointed me to!

hoapres responds

You need to look at the jobs a LOT more carefully. You just picked a very small sample.

Brian writes

Want to try again, guys?

hoapres responds

If you start poking around at h1bfacts dot com and start searching around the universities then it gets pretty depressing. PhDs making less than 50K is not a good sign.
Bart

April 21st, 2008 at 11:49 am

So, I sort the database by wage, and find a Manager of Programmers situated in California being paid 74K. That won’t get you near the beach in Cali. Where will they be housed? A pup tent in the parking lot?
Luther

April 21st, 2008 at 12:26 pm

Stupid. The U.S. was the leader in virtually every aspect of technology in the ‘60. After 40 years of unparalleled and massive chamberpot immigration skewed toward tech workers, US industry is moribund, in large part as a result of displacing the greatest R&D machine the world has ever known with unimaginative third world hacks that cost less.

There are no real shortages of domestic tech workers. Businessmen are simply on the constant lookout to replace high wage domestic workers with foreign workers, whether we’re talking about H1B or illegal scavengers crossing the Mexican border, and Congress is on the business pad.

As far as training foreign techs in our universities, this is simply self-destructive to our own economy as they go home and compete against us. More self-destructive silliness of the kind that makes 81% of the population talk about this country being on the wrong track.
lol!

April 21st, 2008 at 12:55 pm

Read this excerpt from DHS.gov published on 04-01-08, pertaining to the discussion:

“”" The National Science Foundation (NSF), in its Science and Engineering Indicaton 2008 (SEWDO~),’ took note of these trends. NSF observed that globalization of science and technology has proceeded at a quick pace since the early 1990s. Increased international travel coincided with the development of the Internet as a tool for unfettered worldwide information dissemination and wmmunication. “By the late 1990s; the report continues “many governments had taken note of these developments. They increasingly looked to the development of knowledge-intensive economics for their countries’ economic competitiveness and growth.” SEND08 at 0-4. NSF further reports that “twenty-five percent of all college-education science and engineering occupations in 2003 were foreign born, as were [forty percent] of doctorate holders in science and engineering.” According to the Task Force on the Future of American Innovation, Measuring the Moment: Innovation. National Securitv and Economic Comuetitiveness (November 2006); the proportion of American students in the United States obtaining degrees in STEM fields has fallen from 32% to 27%. Later, the report reveals that since 2000, there have been more foreign graduate students studying engineering and the physical, computer and mathematical sciences in U.S. graduate schools than U.S. citizens and permanent residents. The NSF goes on to say that “U.S. [Gross Domestic Product] growth is robust but cannot match large, sustained increases in China and other Asian economies.” And because of this globalization, the United States, while still the leading producer of scientific knowledge, faces a labor market in which it must increasingly compete with these countries. The economies of the Organization of Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) countries, particularly Australia, Canada, and certain European countries, are also providing increased opportunities for STEM scientists. And STEM graduates from the growing economies of China, India, and Russia, for example, have increased employment opportunities in their native countries. Thus, the Task Force on the Future of American Innovation reports “the impact of China and India on global R&D [research and development] is significant and growing rapidly: In 1990, these two countries accounted for 3.4% of foreign R&D staff, which increased to 13.9% by 2004. By the end of 2007, China and India will m u n t for 31% of global R&D staff, up from 19% in 2004.” Measuring the Moment: Innovation. National Securitv and Economic Comnetitiveness (November 2006). In short, with their large and growing populations of STEM-graduate scientists, high-tech industries in these three countries and others in the OECD now compete much more effectively against the U.S. high technology industry. DHS has received communications from a wide range of concerned stakeholders, including companies in the high-tech industry, members of Congress, and U.S. educational institutions, about the adverse impact on the U.S. economy and the ability of U.S. schools to attract talented foreign students for STEM study programs due to the immigration and employment practices in the United States. Representatives of high-tech industries in particular have raised significant concerns that the inability of U.S. companies to obtain H-IB visas for qualified F-1 students in a timely manner continues to result in the loss of skilled technical workers to countries with more lenient employment visa regimes, such as Canada and Australia. See T estimony of Bill Gates, Chairman, Microsoft Corporation, before the U.S. Senate -Committee on Health, Education, Labor & Pensions, “Strengthening American Competitiveness for the 21st Century1′ (Washington, D.C.; March 7,2007)~
Notably, the European Union recently proposed a “Blue Card” program, similar to the U.S. H-1B visa program, under which skilled workers would be able to obtain a temporary work visa for employment in the Empean Union. Unlike the H-1B program, the European Union’s Blue Card program proposal would not have a cap. The European Union estimates that workers would usually be able to obtain their visas in 90 days or less. If the Blue Card proposal is adopted, U.S. employers could be at a competitive disadvantage to employers in the Empean Uni