Google showcased HuddleChat, a real-time chat application, as one of many test applications (directory here) to show off their new Google App Engine platform last night.
Some bloggers noted that the application was a rip off of Campfire, a 37Signals product. And 37Signals CEO Jason Fried used HuddleChat as a PR opportunity, telling ReadWriteWeb “We’re flattered Google thinks Campfire is a great product, we’re just disappointed that they stooped so low to basically copy it feature for feature, layout for layout…We thought that would be beneath Google, but maybe its time to reevaluate what they stand for.”
Frankly, the reaction is fairly ridiculous. But this is apparently a fight that Google doesn’t want to be involved in. They pulled the application and replaced it with the above notice.
I wonder if Darren Delaye, Braden Kowitz, and Kyle Consalus, the Google developers who created HuddleChat, had much of a say in the decision. And why, since HuddleChat is not an official Google product, was it Google that made the decision to pull it down and not the developers who created it? Google was very careful to say that they were not affiliated with HuddleChat while it was up – that, apparently, wasn’t the case.
As far as I’m concerned, this is the first case of censorship on the new Google App Engine platform, and a bad precedent.
Our test application for Google App Engine is here.
Update: If you are as outraged as I am over this 
, join this Facebook group demanding that Google bring back HuddleChat.
I just started using HuddleChat and I really enjoyed it. Shame Google is taking it down
~Daniel Brusilovsky
http://www.danielbru.com
Censorship not so much, these guys created something that was under the google name, albeit not “official”, it was potrayed as close to it. I think calling it censorship is going a bit too far, IMO they did the right thing here.
Mike Scott – Google made the disclaimer that they were “not affiliated” with HuddleChat. Sure seems like they were affiliated to me.
The right call was to leave it up. Or lean on the developers to take it down themselves. They didn’t think through their own legal BS in the rush to please Jason Fried.
Googe bye HuddleChat!
oh boo hoo, they copied the campfire, boo hoo, campfire is so unique and famous, boo hoo, they copied, i’m telling my mom
I don’t agree that it was censorship. It merely seems that Google was protecting it’s self from a potential prior art copyright case with 37Signals.
In a case like this where your own employees use your tools, even in their spare time, to develop an application that is a copy (deliberate or not) of another application the lines blur between who is libel. You the developer or your employer. 37Signals could make a case for prior art and go after Google not the individual developers and since Google app engine was involved an argument could be made that Google “made available” the product. They did the right thing, recognized the error and corrected it.
Christopher – “prior art copyright case”
People can’t copyright a software idea, just the actual code. And prior art generally refers to patent law, not copyright law. and I’m pretty sure 37Signals hasn’t even tried to patent Campfire, because it’s not patentable. You even got the word “libel” in there, which is a false and malicious printed statement. Not sure where you’re going with that.
Admit it, you just put together a bunch of legal sounding words and hit “post,” didn’t you?
Well that settles that… the eeesny fiber of my inner being that kinda sorta wanted to try out AppEngine is dead… I can’t believe this… I cant help but blame a lot of the bloggers who ran with the “Google rips off 37 Signals” headlines…. (tsk tsk tsk RWW… hehehe)…
Time to undo the damage and start a campaign to bring back Huddle!!! Taking it down is going to kill a lot of developers plans of deploying applications on that platform… nobody who cares about their app will hook it into something that Google can just rip down because a few noisy bitches complain about something… that’s just really crappy form from a co. like GOOG. I’m really disappointed.
Oops…that is not good for Google.
http://www.meet....com/index.html
Web Meeting + Chat + User Management
This is freaking stupid. I can’t believe the 37signals guys are whining over this.
The one trick ponies at 37s are getting out of hand. Oh well…
A shame they took it down. It was a nice little app and I was planning on using it.
I personally like using 1 sign-in for as many things as possible, something like this attached to my google accounts is nice. I hope to see an improved version that is perhaps slightly different that Campfire so appease the masses. I personally don’t care and see them as 2 similar programs written in different programing languages. Since when does 37 Signals own the rights to group chat with simple interfaces? I thought HuddleChat looked similar to other Google Products, even though they had no direct affiliation.
Christopher – “prior art copyright case”?
Are you kidding? Really?
Meh. Jason threw his toys. Google acted nicely and bought it down. I wouldnt have thought a demo app by 3 engineers should be of commercial concern to the might of the signals!
I love the app engine though. I haven’t used python much before, but got my app maplinks up and going in around 3 hours.
If it’s censorship, then the culprit is Google, not Jason Fried. And besides, let’s not forget that the genesis of the whole affair was that a shameless ripoff occurred.
Your argument is is that the ripoff wasn’t an “official” act by Google, but an independent act by their employees, developed on Google’s dime, using Google’s computing resources? That seems like a tenuous argument, at best.
Prior art does apply in Copyright someone needs to brush up on his copyright law. As for tossing in a bunch of “legal” sounding words and hitting post, you could not be further from the truth. But I won’t fight a flame war with you, let’s agree to disagree on each others opinions.
The few of us who tried it were probably all very satisfied by this “sample”. I personally planned to use for all my class project (I’m in exchange in Canada, my school is in France, and I will be in London next year for a dual degree… so I need such a platform, and the use of Google account is perfect to get all my team-mates in a chatroom within 1 hour).
Where can I sign a petition to bring back HuddleChat?
Danny – err, yeah. google was the censor, not jason. jason was just being childish.
yeah, everyone knows 37signals invented group chat.
google copied it feature for feature, too. they were like:
[x] ability to read messages from other people
[x] ability to send messages to other people
[x] use large rectangles for layout
[x] show what room you are in
oh shit come to think of it my irc client copied 37signals too! i’m disappointed in it, too, jason. it really stooped to a low level to implement *obvious shit for group chat*
here’s a tissue.
Christopher – sure, but not really. but, please, elaborate. explain your prior art copyright and libel case.
and Christopher Mercer goes down in flames….. ouch.
Out of all of this, the one thing that seems like to be a constant is the fact that another quality application that actually compared in usability and feature-set to a 37Signals product once again suddenly drops off of the face of the earth…
Jason Fried got all emo and now I have to go back to an ad-supported, limited feature campfire – does no one else see it this way? If he really had a case he wouldn’t be blogging about it, he would be talking with a lawyer.
I hate the word censorship unless its an arm of federal or state govt stifling a citizen.
This is just Google doing a CYA
This is fascinating, it’s like what happens when an immovable object meets an irresistible force… either the company that “does no evil” did evil or the company that builds “real” products built a pretty shallow product that got pwned by a “hello world” sample app.
Admit it, you just put together a bunch of legal sounding words and hit “post,” didn’t you?
That’s the funniest thing I’ve read all day. Go former lawyer go!
That is quite unfortunate. It was a good little product.
“the real thing ” here is the precedent laid, not copying, not taking out, not ripping.
it gives an image,” Google censors “…
and image is everything when launching a new product and service..
and i feel thats what Michael (original post) is trying to get into.( i think).
being a developer, i would be more hesitant (don’t know why) to try building apps if i feel (prolly unrealistically) google “big brother” might censor my product at any moment..
Its the thought that kills..
The “Hello World” app looks exactly like my intellectual property. Take it down!
Wow. Although they have pulled the app, I would *love* to see how they transform an app from RoR + RDBMS backend to Python/Django to BigTable/GFS backend.
Nothing wrong. Google is trying to be on the safer side and avoid any legal hassles. In this case Google owns both the platform and the application. Google is pulling down HuddleChat in its capacity as application developer, not platform owner. This by itself can not be costrued as censorship. We have to watch what Google will do when some one else host an controversial application using their app engine.
I dont think its the concept of group chat, but its going a little overboard to copy campfire feature for feature dont you think?
I mean, it would be fairly easy for someone to write the crunchbase app on google’s stack. If they copied your design etc. and any innovations you may have done, dont you think thats ethically an issue?
I didn’t realize 37Signals copyrighted a chatroom. Maybe they need to send a C&D letter to Meebo, too?
Arrington – just to clear the air, i believe Christopher misspelled “liable.” It never makes sense to say, as he did, “…the lines blur between who is libel.”
So what if Huddle is a carbon copy? the guys at 37signals need to rethink their mission statement. You can’t build a great product then sit on your balls and hope for the cash to flow in indefinitely.
(joined the group
)
scott – ah, you’re right. I’ll stop harping on that then.
Jason Fried and his less is more mantra is starting to really get old. He may be able to convince his girlfriend of this, but I do not want to hear it anymore.
Ah, 35 comments in and the first dick joke. Good one.
Jason – did you join the group?
InCircles was doing this two years ago.
You know, for all the complaining you guys are doing, you could have probably written another clone of the app yourselves. Make it a TechCrunch group project.
Bob – yes, but would google take it down?
Longtime reader, first time poster.
Agree on the censorship. Two separate issues bug me.
One: Goog needs to learn from this. Specifically can they both be the 800# big company gorilla and still inspire hot s*** devs to build cool apps fast, without the big company keystone cops routine? I worked at a bigswco in PacNw for 10 years, and I saw this devlolve. Goog’s got to nail this.
Two: Terrible PR appraoch for 37sigs, good learning opp for others. Many & growing # of start-ups will have challenge of avoiding the potential of being ripped off or copied. Staying focused on how to deal will be key. This statement is over-the-top and does nothing for customers or the 37sigs community.
My $.02.
I agree 100% with Michael on this one. Jason, what do you have to say about this? A lot of developers are wondering why you are acting like this…
Google should be commended. They do not need to own all markets. Leave group chat to 37Signals. 37Signals spent all that time developing Campfire and all. Good going Google.
Oh how the blogging world can ruin a good thing. I read a few of these blogs regarding HuddleChat and they grilled google saying they robbed the idea and they were a big company squeezing out smaller ones. And now google pulls the plug and they are whining that it should go back up. Which way is it up or down? The things bloggers will do to post a pessimistic story; the glass is always half empty.
My take on this whole thing is google probably asked a few developers to put something together using the app engine. These guys were using 37signals to collaborate on an idea and though wow this tool is great lets use it as a demonstration for the app engine. It debuts the blogging world goes into a frenzy to catch the app engine’s marketing wave and kills the site. Now that its gone everyone realizes we just got a free clone for an overpriced product and want it back. boo freaking hoo.
Copycatting is certainly not the way to go.. or it won’t go too far anyway…
My understanding of the situation is the reason why 37 Signals is upset is because HuddleChat essentially ripped Campfire’s design (down to some of the effects) and was, feature for feature, exactly identical to Campfire. About the only difference between the two products were the colors chosen for each site.
Seems to me that such blatant copying is cause for some concern, especially when it is the 1200 pound gorilla doing the copying.
It would be one thing if HuddleChat had additional features which Campfire does not currently have, which made it easy to differentiate between the two products. But when the colors and name are the only things separating the two products there is definitely cause for concern.
… or am I just so screwed up in my thinking here that I should grab a spork and stab myself in my right eye?
What’s there for them to say? “Less is more” was always an untenable long-term position. The genie is out of the bottle, Google took their clone down but how many people are now building their own in response? 37 Signals now needs to learn a new catchphrase to replace “less is more”… “barrier to entry”.
Scott – go with the spork.
Maybe they were trying to make the point that something as simple as Campfire can be free with the new Google Apps Engine.
I think Google should take down Gtalk as well. I mean it is an outright copy of what Skype was doing years before. If you bow down to the cries of 37Signals why not offer the same courtesy to Skype?