March 21, 2008

Startups Battle Over Who Invented Risk-Like War Game First

Michael Arrington

50 comments »

Many college students (but few others) will recognize the Risk-like game known as Turf that pits thousands of students against each other in a weeks-long online wargame that is similar to the board game Risk, but uses the college campus as the map.

What started off as a for-fun experiment by Yale student Gabe Smedresman in January 2007 resulted in a game that went on for over a month and involved over 3,300 Yale students (more than 25% of the student body).

But now that original game of Turf has spawned two separate and funded startups to push the game as a business. Smedresman joined with Harvard students Andrew Fong, Matt O’Brien, and Hugo Van Vuuren to found Kirkland North, a Y Combinator backed startup (screen shot of their game is above). Meanwhile, a rival company has launched that was founded by some of the players of Smedresman’s original game, called GoCrossCampus.

A New York Times article today written by Brad Stone profiles GoCrossCampus and suggested the founders invented the game and said “The game, a riff on classic territorial-conquest board games like Risk, may be the next Internet phenomenon to emerge from the computers of college students.” There was no mention of Kirkland North or Smedresman’s original work in that article.

Kirland North contacted the NYT, they say, to set the record straight. Stone then wrote a new article on the NYT’s Bits blog with the additional information supplied by Kirkland North.

The Kirkland North guys are obviously irate over what they see as a blatant rip-off of their idea. In a phone conversation, Van Vuuren said that the GoCrossCampus guys are not engineers and had to outsource the development of the game, using Turf as a guide. The code base is inferior, he said, and of the 20 games that have been run on the GoCrossCampus platform, half have had technical failures (GoCrossCampus has not yet responded to my request for comment) (Update: see below). Van Vuuren says their platform is stable and has had no problems in the six games they’ve run since last year. A recent Stanford game, he says, had 2,500 players, with more than 1/3 of undergraduates playing.

And there is yet more drama - the original NYT’s article on GoCrossCampus had a prominent quote from Google product manager Jonathan Rochelle, who “views it as similar to software like Google Calendar and Google Docs — tools that enhance real-world collaboration,” and “Next month, Google will bring GoCrossCampus to its New York office, pitting sales departments against engineering groups over a map of the company’s Manhattan campus.”

But it turns out that Gabe Smedresman is actually a full time Google employee. The fact that Google is planning to run his rivals’ game at their New York office must not sit well with him at all.

Of course, Hasbro, the owners of the original Risk game, will have something to say about the real inventor of the game, so neither company may have much moral ground beneath their feet.

See also our coverage of Kdice, a simple synchronous multiplayer version of Risk.

Update: I spoke to a somewhat bewildered GoCrossCampus co-founder Brad Hargreaves (who’s currently on spring break). He says that the GoCrossCampus code base was developed completely separately from the original Turf game, and that they made repeated offers to Smedresman to join their founding team, which he declined. He also says that at the time they spoke to the New York Times, which was last month, they had no idea Smedresman intended to start his own rival startup. Hargreaves also disputes KirklandNorth’s assertion that the GoCrossCampus founders aren’t engineers - two of the founders are engineers, he says. Finally, Hargreaves says that their technical hiccups were all in the first two games that they ran; all subsequent games, he says, have run smoothly.

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Trackbacks/Pings (Trackback URL)

  1. GoCrossCampus― Bringing Risk Online | Can The World Hear Me
  2. RealityCrunch » Risk-Like War Is War Of Words
  3. AppzDrive.com » Blog Archive » Startups Battle Over Who Invented Risk-Like War Game First
  4. Tid Bits - Tech, Life, Entrepreneurship » Massive Multiplayer Game Built On Social Networks
  5. » The Week in Geek - March 30, 2008 (BC MBA Vaults Forward in US News Rankings)The Week in Geek

Comments

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  1. diystartupnews.com

    Its a shame that they were slow to get it to market first then there would of been none of this. I love the concept a lot and it seems these web based games are the new big thing.

  2. Jon

    Who invented “risk-like war games” is like asking who invented the wheel, these games have been played since civilization began… the only difference is the medium (computer - internet) but the rules are still essentially the same. As such, these fights should just be solved by a game of risk-like war between the founders and this can easily be put to rest.

    Jon
    http://dreamclue.com … get the message!

  3. Alaska Miller

    Nerdfights are always very important on the internets.

  4. 1

    can someone do a startup while working for google? just curious

  5. 1

    to add to #4, “i mean doesnt it violate any employee contract or something like that”

  6. Thilo

    At the end those two companies will stay in competition with each other.

  7. DaveS

    GoCrossCampus is an awesome game! Turf… vaporware… they missed their chance and are now sore losers.

  8. browse

    slow news day?

  9. Albert

    There’s an online game called Warfish at warfish.net, that has been around for a long time. It has an entire development platform for enthusiasts to create custom games with custom maps, rules, etc… This thing has been out there for years and has a pretty loyal following. As #2 mentions, these games have been out there for a long time,…

  10. teet

    #4,5: Well as far as I know they have “relaxing” hours they can use however they want.

  11. diditforthelulz

    Would be interested to see the six games KirklandNorth claims to have run…? Or the 3000 players in its Stanford game, for that matter.

  12. Info

    This website iss linked with: http://elpiratabueno.blogspot.com/

    Please link,me…..

  13. Pete Cross

    So Did the New York Times do even basic fact checking on their original story?

  14. DaveS

    Btw, why hasn’t Google fired Gabe Smedresman? Also, I’d be worried, as an investor, who owns the code… Google’s employment agreement is pretty tight in that regard.

  15. gilltots

    if you want a turn-based web-based game that doesn’t suck donkey balls like these two, try http://weewar.com - but be careful it’s addictive.

  16. uhh

    uhhh .. DaveS .. as long as Gabe didn’t use google’s resources (ie: computers, software etc) there is no way they can claim ownership over anything.

    And as long as he’s doing his day time job and works on his side project in spare time, “Google’s employment agreement” if it in fact states something like that, will not be in effect.

    Use your common sense, kk? good.

  17. Larry Larrikin

    @16 uhhh, actually most employment agreements don’t work the way you seem to think they do. Good luck.

  18. nick

    Thanks for at least trying to set the record straight. Mainstream news consistently gets facts wrong.

    Have you ever read a news article or seen a TV news broadcast where you had first-hand knowledge of the facts behind the story? Was the news story ever accurate?

    Never.

  19. Kevin Xu

    Maybe those two startups should battle it out in a real-life board-game of Risk to decide who gets to continue on…

    But in all seriousness, I saw this covered on the MIT blogs: http://www.mitadmissions.org/t....._plu.shtml and it all comes down to who gets this viral and gather the greatest youth following. I believe GoCrossCampus definitely has the advantage as it has more games and even Google likes them.

    I’m glad that Brad Hargreaves finally got a say on this because it is unfortunate timing as most of the team is on Spring Break. Seems like someone found perfect timing to start having little chitchats with Arrington ;D

  20. Ilya

    http://www.conquerclub.com is the best “online risk” I’ve played so far - none of that web 2.0 crap, just straight action.

  21. Risk player

    As one of the original members of the winning alliance of the Harvard game… I must say first that there is really no secret sauce in the game - it’s just Risk, modified and played online. What made it successful was that enough people was into it, and there was a lot of “offline” coordination, and if you dig up the records of how the Harvard Games was played, there was blatant cheating and all sorts of technical issues. The winning teams at one point or another used a perl script to automate movements en masse..
    I think it is quite lame for those guys to try to cash on an idea like this and fight it out over who got the idea first. I mean… Gabe wrote the first code, that’s to his credit, but both Kirkland North and GoAcross Campus are just guys who want to capitalize on a nice little game.

  22. Andy

    Arrington,

    I read the article quickly, but I noticed this:

    GoCrossCampus is in New Haven
    Kirkland North was started by a Yale student.

    I suppose your article implies that the two students went to the same college, but it doesn’t talk about it explicitly, and it doesn’t give some important background info such as the students’ majors. I mean, come on, lets see some digging so your stuff can improve on what else is out there.

    - Andy

  23. Wowa

    Am I the only one to think that most of these web 2.0 startup are getting lamer and lamer?

    It’s a freaking board game and you are going to build a business out of that?

    What ever happened to real innovations? Most of these web 2.0 site are a bunch of rehashed of old ideas.

    I guess you got to do whatever to bring in idiots to linger on the site. Whatever… Day by day, after reading Techcrunch, I’m getting discouraged about web 2.0.

    Most of these web 2.0 companies are like farts to me…it seem anyone can make one based on stupid ideas. OOpsss.. there! I just made a web 2.0 startup.

    After an era of google and yahoo… it seem that most of the innovation has stopped when web 2.0 started. And please don’t give me facebook and myspace. Those are geocity’s flavor of the moment.

    Lame…

  24. Mark Lancaster

    I think you’re missing the point Wowa.

    Sure a lot of these Web 2.0 ideas are lame, but what will happen is that someone will get inspiration out of a lot of the ideas we’re seeing bandied about and eventually make something great.

    Look what happened with Web 1.0 and the dot com bust? What happened? a little innovation out of a market that was seemingly dead (search) and we get Google.

    While a lot of these ideas are not as ambitious as Google is no doubt, but there is still merit in providing entertainment.

  25. DaveS

    @16: Uhm… have you ever read even a boiler-plate emp agreement? Google’s emp agreement is pretty tight when it comes to IP created during off-times.

  26. Marzipan from Toledo

    google shmoogle

  27. Prokofy Neva

    I don’t like this.

    I don’t think people should be putting war games on real-life maps.

  28. Paul

    Re: Prokofy

    Grow up. It’s a strategy game. No guns. No weapons.

  29. Sean Glass

    Mike,
    You mention that Kirkland North is a Y combinator company, one thing that isn’t mentioned is that brad, Jeff, and Sean started GoCrossCampus while involved with the Yale Entrepreneurial Institute Program (www.yale.edu/yei) - Brad is also former president of the Yale Entrepreneurial Society. So - in addition to battle of two startups you also have two startups that have emerged from similar (but different) seed funding programs.

    I’m not sure that making a fuss over who invented the idea of taking a risk like game onine is the right thing- Look at the history of facebook vs. myspace vs. friendster etc… Startup success is about a good idea, but even more so about execution. What will be interesting is to follow which team executes better.

    Brad, Sean, and Jeff are smart, hardworking guys and it’s great to see them getting momentum and enough attention to warrant your interest - keep up the great work guys!

  30. Sudipta Bandyopadhyay

    I’m a student at Yale who played both the original game (called “Old Campus Tree Risk”) and the GoCrossCampus (GXC) versions.

    A couple corrections, Michael: “in a game that went on for over a month and involved over 3,300 Yale students (more than 25% of the student body).” The game was limited to undergraduates, of which there are about 5500 here, so that would be approximately 60% participation in the student body.

    The original Old Campus Tree Risk was pretty good– nice, simple, minimalist interface. From what I could tell, it really took off more because of the intense “inter-residential college” rivalries here– think of it like intramurals– than the game mechanics.

    The GXC version started almost a year ago, and besides Gabe, the Kirkland North guys weren’t around when GXC started. GXC signficantly improved the concept (and especially the user interface!), and even though I played in one of the first two games (the one with the “technical hiccups”), it was still absolutely fantastic. I’m sure the Kirkland North guys aren’t too far behind (Gabe’s a Googler now, so it’s gotta be good!) but GXC’s innovations took the game to a new level.

    Re: Andy
    Yeah, they’re all Yale students, that was implied. But why are their majors important? :-P I mean, Brad’s a biology/economics double major as the NYT article states, but what does that really matter? I’m also a bio/econ double major, big deal… that really doesn’t say all that much about me, does it?

    Re: Wowa
    Lame? Please… It’s a good idea and a solid model, if you take the time to think about it.

  31. juan carlos

    I’ve been playing for a few months a much more original game: http://www.erepublik.com its invite only at this stage but you ask for one on the hp

  32. under

    Estou tentando aumentar minha relevancia.

  33. Michael

    The game looks kind of weird. Check out my blog for legit ways to make money online.
    http://mikesmoneyclub.blogspot.com/

  34. Andy

    Sudipta,

    Thanks for the info. The majors matter because (1) I want to know; (2) it would be interesting if the founders are both in the same major and same classes at Yale; and (3) Arrington writes “In a phone conversation, Van Vuuren said that the GoCrossCampus guys are not engineers…” so it would be good for Arrington to clarify what they are.

  35. diditforthelulz

    Andy - I know that one GXC founder is in the CS department at Columbia. I think two of their other founders are in the engineering department at Yale. Not sure outside of that.

  36. stanford undergrad

    1/3 of undergrads at stanford?? I’m a stanford undergrad and never even heard of anyone playing this piece of crap game.

  37. Greg

    Michael,

    If you are going to write an article, please do some actual research. The sensationalized perspective of this article is absurd. There is no basis to your alleged “facts.” I don’t understand how you could accept quotes from Kirkland about the way GoCrossCampus is running. Obviously they will have a bias, and as you found out, they were complete fabrications and lies! And as far as the “update” goes, you should rewrite your article, libel is not rectified by an “update.” Next time take the time to actually research a topic and understand the sides before you run to your computer to write it.

  38. DaveS

    @30: ” (Gabe’s a Googler now, so it’s gotta be good!) ”

    Huh? What kind of a logic is that? Your ex-Yale profs are weeping.

  39. Sudipta Bandyopadhyay

    Re: Andy
    Uhhh, if you must know, of the four GXC’ers from Yale, one is bio/econ, one is sociology/econ, and two are engineers. And Gabe is architecture/comp sci. So none of them would have met up by having the same classes, except maybe the two engineers. The way the four GXC’ers actually met up and got started was through the Yale Entrepreneurial Society (of which Brad was President), and they got the ball rolling as part of the Yale Entrepreneurial Institute (which Sean Glass referred to). That’s far more relevant than the classes they take, I think….

    Re: DaveS
    To clarify my point, Kirkland North can’t just flaunt Gabe about without raising expectations. With a Googler on their team, you’d expect them to be doing quite well by this point. GXC continues to bring a lot of innovations to this game, and they are on their 15th or 20th game now. Kirkland North is about to start their 4th game, but I’m looking forward to seeing what innovations they bring to it…

  40. kpat

    What rip off?

    A game is only protectable by patents. I agree with @2 in that these types of games have been around for centuries. And there is probably nothing in Risk that was original enough to patent to begin with.

    But even if Hasbro did have a patent it would have long expired. According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_(game) the game was first released in 1957. Patents only last 20 years in the US, so it would have expired about 30 years ago. The general gameplay of Risk is public domain at this point.

    The name Risk is protectable indefinitely by trademark (as long as somebody pays the fee.) The story and the characters are protectable for tens if not 100+ years by copyright. (I don’t remember when copyrights expire but it’s not indefinite either)

    That’s different than the Scrabulous case where a bunch of newbies just cloned Scrabble (of which they have the right to do so since the game is public domain), but still called it so similar to Scrabble, a clear rip off of the Scrabble trademark. Let’s face reality, would anyone play scrabulous if it was call Awesome Word Challenge Thingy? I think I will create a quiz game in which people ask the questions and I’m going to call it Jeepardy.

    As you can see the US created an IP system that balances individual rights with society’s rights. The whole point is to foster innovation to benefit all and give the next person something to build upon, while temporarily recognizing and rewarding generously the original innovator.
    The system also tries to recognize that there are legitimate practical issues such as business naming rights and the need to avoid confusion and protect the consumer.

  41. Harrison Rose

    Interesting article and interesting comments. However, there is a lot of misinformation being spread about a few important topics. Please allow me to elaborate.

    (1) Employment contracts and claims on the IP (Intellectual Property).
    The employment contract is generally interpreted under the laws of the state where the employee is located, though there may be exceptions. Depending on the wording of the contract, the local law, and the pre-employment disclosure of IP by the employee, the company may have a legitimate claim, a bogus claim, or no claim at all. Speculation without this information is meaningless. Anyone joining a firm where IP is important should verify what laws apply to you before you sign the contract.

    (2) Who came first?
    The reason it matters is determined by whether the two games or their software are considered derivative work of the initial game played at Yale. There is a chain of intellectual property derivation for the game, the genre, and the GUI. Certainly, Risk was a precursor, but Risk had precursors of its own. If the two companies have significantly similar products, both derived from the online game, then the question should be who owned the rights to the original game. If someone filed with the USPTO to own the game, and if the filing contained the clauses necessary to claim rights against the derivative work, then there will be grounds for a nasty legal battle. However, if there was no original IP filing, then it is almost certainly in the public domain which would make the contest between the two games based on the similarity of unique characteristics of the derived games.
    Obviously, no one involved in the reporting of this fluff cared enough to check. After all, it was only meant to be fluff reporting!

    Finally,
    (3) The important part of the story of two companies being formed around basically the same game is not the game but the fact that these two teams were able to build a business model that attracted investment! Online games is a very big, growing area that is gaining investment from the venture community. There is plenty of room for competitors. So I say, BRAVO to both of them.

    Harrison Rose
    The Online Social Games Company
    Silicon Valley, CA

    BTW, I really dislike #33’s type of businesses. They are essentially frauds or pyramid schemes.
    P.S. Innovation in game development is just as important as innovation in pure technology. It is the application of technology for a specific purpose that generates economic value, while innovation my be honored by awards, praise, applause, pats on the back, and other less intrinsically valuable good feelings. Please don’t put down innovation on either front.

  42. Peter McKinnon

    Well I came up with the idea for a game called “Turf Wars” way back in the early 90’s…I started development using Borland Turbo C++ - I still have my notes and I think some rubbish code in case any one is interested… I lost interest and started working on a PC map application and printed map book that featured aerial photos with overlays of streets and POI - I actually hired a plane to take me up to take aerial photos…but that was a couple of years after writing a business plan immediately after graduating in ‘93 for selling books and CDs to college students using something called the internet - I gave up on that a bit too soon as I wasn’t aware of this new thing called a “web browser” - I had a bix.net email account using dialup at 300bps - and I was going to write my own GUI catalog app for UNIX and send the orders via email….I also didn’t see the barrier to entry for competition…I have a copy of the plan if anyone is curious…I’ve always regretted not sending to Bezos back then…

    That’s just a few of my ideas that other people also got but actually did something. More energy? time? money? brains? talent? gumption? luck? Some of each I suspect…

    Maybe I should start working on my Turf Wars game again?

  43. Edwin Bennett

    I was one of the triumvirate which lead the Princeton team to victory in GXC’s all Ivy Championship. Kirkland North’s claim that GXC suffers from a terrible code base and frequent technical failures is absolutely accurate.

  44. Jimmy Hat

    I am so tired of hearing people who were slow that they were first…stop wining and start coding. Unless the code was ripped if someone else saw your idea and got it to market better, faster, or cheaper then you are SOL. Welcome to the real world!

    Jimmy
    http://bimat.terapad.com

  45. Albert

    Cool idea but I don’t see what the hype is about. None of these sites can even compare to Conquer Club. http://www.conquerclub.com The best!!