Anil Dash, Six Apart’s Chief Evangelist, took aim at Wordpress users in a blog post today. Instead of upgrading to the new version of Wordpress, he says, consider moving over to their platform.
Now, it’s generally fair game to target your competitors, and Dash’s blog post was so tame that I can’t even find a good quote to pull into this post. But that didn’t stop Wordpress founder Matt Mullenweg from going for blood. In a Twitter message, Matt says “six apart is getting desperate, and dirty.” Anil fires back almost immediately with “@photomatt desperation is resorting to name-calling and slander instead of substance — if there’s a factual error, i’m glad to fix it.”
Last week the two companies dueled in the comments to a post we wrote - See David Recordon (SixApart) and Lloyd Budd (Automattic) comments starting here.
Who’s right? No idea. Dash notes that upgrading Wordpress is not exactly easy. Wordpress CEO Toni Schneider emailed me to say that some bloggers are actually moving from Moveable Type to Wordpress.
What’s clear is that neither platform is perfect, and requires far too much work for the bloggers. They both need to watch out for upcoming next generation platforms, which may eat both their lunches.
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2.5 is the version of Wordpress due out today(ish).
Latest Movable Type is 4.1
Why fix what isn`t broken? If Movable Type felt the need to have version updates, it`s for a reason.
I read Anil Dash’s post and nothing in it seems desperate or dirty. I love WordPress due to its ease of use, but there is a great need for alternatives in the market. Few like monopolies, and the same beliefs should apply to open source blogging platforms like WordPress and others among the same ilk. I don’t know, but the WP gang sounds a tad too sensitive about Dash’s post, which was pretty valid and opportune.
This is his selling point. Not very convincing
How may people does this apply to?
He did not mention that Digg has a mirror
@SearcH EngineS WEB: Just because “Digg has a mirror” (they don’t, third parties provide the mirrors) doesn’t mean I’m okay with my website going down.
updating wordpress (and most other self-hosted scripts) is to complicated i think. because technical it could be possible to make it like “new version available? do you want to upgrade? yes! updater downloads the files press install! finished”.
WordPress is dominating now as blogging platform. Bravo Matt!
When geeks attack!
http://strips.bitstrips.com/fd.....32599a.png
Florian,
Wordpress has a plugin for automatic updates. It doesn’t get easier than that.
@Paul NIce
@Florian : It’s exactly the way of Movable Type. When there is minor updates, they are downloaded by MT and you just have to press the button “Upgrade”. For major updates, the only thing that you have to do is copy and past the new folder over the old and clic on “Upgrade” in MT.
@Julian Baldwin: Plugins are good. Not needing plugins is better, isn’t ?
@Paul: It’s exactly the reality ^^ !
well, 6apart has sold already LiveJournal - it might be good for their business but for community it was shock… so WHY on Earth wordpress-ers shall even think about going 6apart? to be sold too?
Stephane,
Plugins are not necessarily better or worse, but I can’t imagine a small company out performing an entire community of users whose contributions are made in the form of plugins. Also, plugins let the users direct the software, allowing them to get everything they want, provided they can implement it.
@SearcH◆ EngineS WEB : MT publish each file on the disk so you didn’t need to access to the database when you are on a MT-powered. It’s really good on very big websites because there is no DB connection error when the number of visitors increases.
@Julian Baldwin : I agree with you, Plugins are good. I’m not saying that WordPress is bad because there are plugins, MT has also plugins. But I think that WordPress should integrate plugins that most users need. MT does that, and it’s pretty cool.
I use both of MT and WordPress. WordPress is really good because of its lot of plugins and beautiful themes, but there is a lot of database connection errors when you have a big traffic. MT is better for that because you don’t need db when you display a page (only when a comment is sent or a user ask for a search). So, All is about a point of view.
wordpress blog is good ! I like it and I used it ,Kitchen Cabinet designer ,oh…ha…
Stephane,
I definitely agree that consideration for the most useful and/or most popular plugins would be good thing for WP. One example, the related post plugin is becoming a standard for many blogs, WP should give users the convenience of already having access to it.
@A.T.,
I don’t see how selling LiveJournal has anything to do with this discussion. If anything, LiveJournal was a distraction that diverted 6apart away from their core business model - the creation of blogging platforms.
Thanks for an even-handed assessment, Mike — it’s that kind of tone that keeps things from turning into a pile-on in the blogosphere. I have no interest in getting into personal attacks or being today’s Techmeme Drama Du Jour — I got over that crap years ago.
As I’ve said many times, we learn from everyone in blogging, and Automattic makes good tools, as do we. I think the fact that you couldn’t find a juicy attack quote really does illustrate that we’re trying to be forthright and fair. I should think that the WP community would be more frustrated with Automattic not having the 2.5 release ready (or even a release date) than with someone pointing out that there are good options for bloggers.
And honestly, it may well be that Matt isn’t used to the way that competition works when you’re a well-funded company with tens of millions of dollars in the bank. I know it took us a while to adjust to the reality of how perceptions change in that situation. But given that Automattic’s raised many millions more dollars than Six Apart, I certainly don’t think it’s unfair for us as an underdog to point out our strengths.
We do believe in competition. We’re thrilled that it’s made our product better. We also think that anybody who is on the side of getting more people blogging is doing important work. And you’re exactly right when you say “What’s clear is that neither platform is perfect, and requires far too much work for the bloggers.” So we’re working mightily on making Movable Type even better as the most powerful blogging platform around.
And yeah, sometimes we even stop to blog about it. Call me crazy.
I think his post was just an attempt to get attention - and he got it.
Megan,
Do you pardon a successful blog for having attention? I disagree with your statement anyway.
Upgrading Wordpress isn’t easy? Since when?
Jeffrey,
http://wordpress.org/extend/pl.....c-upgrade/
Jeffrey - it isn’t the update that’s hard, it’s everything that breaks afterwards.
Jeffrey, it depends on the user; the majority are not programming/deisgn experts and the prospect is fairly daunting.
I run a number of Wordpress powered sites and each and every one uses a different version. Why? Because I have no idea if upgrading will screw up my template, or if I’ll simply screw up the whole thing with my attempt. I have thought about hiring someone to upgrade them all for me every few months, but that’s kinda ridiculous and comes back to Anil’s main point here.
Now I’ve never really considered MT but having had a look, it might be an option. To me the main weak point is the lack of templates and designers that offer MT designing/coding. In that realm, Wordpress rules and may for some time.
I understand Anil’s point though - upgrading wordpress every few months is a pain and they need to resolve that. Within a few weeks of launching my new site using wordpress, they came out with a new upgrade and I’m scared to venture that way.
Tim (http://timothysykes.com/)
The Internet Hate Machine is in full effect these last few days and Twitter is it’s platform!
Imagine this type of Twitter activity at a KKK rally or something explosive such as that?
updating wordpress (and most other self-hosted scripts) is to complicated i think. because technical it could be possible to make it like “new version available? do you want to upgrade? yes! updater downloads the files press install! finished”.
I love WP so much but it’s quite difficult to manage. I’m going to try migrating to MT. Is it difficult?
interesting point about something new coming up and catching them out.
I think if someone attacks a niche it would be easy to take market share.
Arrington : it isn’t the update that’s hard, it’s everything that breaks afterwards.
I absolutely agree with you Mike. Now, my blog has a database error “welcome message” on top of every page. I don’t have the time to check it.
I know programming a lot. I love to code. I’m quite expert at PHP. But I don’t have the time to analyze it. Photomatt has to find the solution to help us upgrading WP easily.
I’ll googling about MT today. Goodbye WP
I love Worpdress and realize that I am trading my time (for the upgrades) for a software that is FREE.
On what might take it over - Drupal 6 may have just turned a corner in their last release. I have several wordpress blogs and a few “brochure” sites running on Wordpress that I am considering moving over. Drupal just lacks the support of the design community to make better themes / templates.
For those complaining about upgrades you may want to check out Serendipity at http://s9y.org
I’m not an employee just a fan.
I’m not clear on where the “it isn’t easy to upgrade wordpress” is coming from? It seems perfectly easy to me. If it is challenging to some, isn’t that a question they should decide before hosting their own web site and installing server-side software?
Plug-ins aside, let’s look what you need to do:
- Three clicks into the database admin and export the database to your hard drive just in case
- Put your blog into maintenance mode (completely optional)
- Download the latest version of WP
- Install it and check it
- Take the blog out of maintenance mode
All in all not that many steps, and very similar to installing any piece of software on your own computer. Another thing to consider is that it is trivial in comparison to working with template language and CSS. That you need to know what you are doing. Perhaps it is me, but upgrading seems to be the least of a user concern and also seems there are much better value propositions in blogging software to attack if you are trying to get users to switch.
What the Movable Type team isn’t taking into consideration is loyalty. I’m sure that they may be able to win some folks over from Wordpress. But for those of us who’ve been blogging a long time, we were the same folks who were literally forced over to Wordpress when MT decided to start charging for anyone hosting more than one blog. For many of us, it wasn’t a business, but a way to provide a platform for completely non-tech-oriented friends. It was move designed solely to make more money, forcing you to either dump your friends or tell them that they had to help pay for a blogging platform no one was getting paid to use. Some people actually just blog for the fun of it.
I can honestly say that for personal use, I’d never go back to Movable Type. It could be so easy to use and install that it even does windows and I’d still stick by Wordpress. Because sometimes, it’s not about the technology, but how a company treats its users.
Theres just too much support and options available for wordpress to use anything else now
I have been designing and building Web sites for ten years (as well as a startup CMS) and I have to say that while Wordpress has the great installation numbers — MT has a better core system. It’s built for professional use, and it looks more intimidating. But there’s more control over your blog built in, and that makes it easier to develop on the platform without using your PHP skills. They have benefited by building the core system and then opening it to open source — but that also killed their adoption rate.
Wordpress is hampered by how it was invented and propogated — one guy writes a blogging application — but that one guy made something that was easier to install and while not as pretty, was structured in a way that made it more accessible to novices. But there are so many legacy users to support, WP will forever have a hard time upgrading the codebase to have less plugins, extended functionality and an even more improved interface.
In my opinion both systems have pluses and minuses, but to me MT is a better core system. But WP benefits from the fact that Mullenweg hit a nerve at the right time — more and more people get the idea of publishing Web content — and his system was there for download and opened up a world to people who over time will expect more and more as their ‘web savviness’ grows.
And as these users learn of and then expect more and more Web site features, they won’t be just blogging anymore. They’ll be managing a Web site. Their content wont be one level deep. They’ll need to manage more complex data sets. They’ll just want functionality — not a plugin to install that functionality. My point is a true content management system does more than organize the application around posting date-centric articles — blog text is just a type of content — not an intuitive core structure for a fully featured content management system.
These people are managing websites — not “blogs”.
We moved from Typepad to Wordpress a couple of years ago because Six Apart damaged our Google listings by (weirdly) adding ‘no_robots’ to its default header template. ‘No_robots’ means ‘Go Away Googlebot’. We weren’t informed of the change but figured it out *after* experiencing Google problems.
You need to be in control of this stuff, rather than a company like Six Apart. Wordpress allows that and communicates about upgrades in a far more transparent way. All things considered we have found Wordpress to be a far better platform to work with than Typepad (where things like domain mapping and comment moderation caused major headaches).
I did communicate this to Anil after he wrote to us to persuade us to stay with Six Apart, but we never heard back from him.
Chris, I apologize that you didn’t get the communication you deserve from our company, and from me personally. I do want to clarify — there has never been a time when TypePad would list a block for robots unless you had specifically set your blog as private. However, that’s something that would be clear if the lines of communcation were open. I’m glad you’re still blogging, and we have an enormous number of TypePad users today who I think can vouch for the fact that it’s an excellent, powerful platform.
WordPress is the current star and that’s quite obvous? You just have to see the huge variety of themes available for WP..
MT already screwed us on licensing once - why would we risk it again?
This is when products like Graffiti shine
Like Chris, TypePad was so screwy that it wouldn’t let me comment on my own *paid* TypePad blog. That was 2004 (see signature URL for details). Let’s hope Anil & Co. have cleaned up the mess by now. Mullenweg scores bonus community points for addressing issues with their software (he’s out there and will show up in your blog comment area to address concerns with WP) where Dash hasn’t been as directly involved, at least from what I’ve seen over the years. Frankly I was surprised he made a couple comments here.
But these back and forth ’switch to us, we have the better solution’ moves with Mullenwag and Dash aren’t anything new though.
ceejayoz licensing point aside, my problem with MT is the sheer amount of files and dependencies. It’s ridiculous how many libraries this program uses. 6A need to break out the hacksaw and produce and promote a MT lite version that has the bare essentials and nothing else. You don’t need a bunch of files for a freaking blog program. Blog software shouldn’t be that complicated.
And Wordpress isn’t getting any “lite”r either. WP already has the best plugin structure, so why the need to keep making it fatter and fatter like some gross, overweight guy hitting the desert bar for seconds and thirds? Those who want to have some bloated mess of an installation can do so already.
Versionitis in software design is a sin that makes customers run into the competition’s arms or using their own custom software. Stop it already.
twitter fight. how lame have we become.
Ooh er missus. Handbags at dawn!
WP has been free/open a lot longer than MT… therefor WP has the benefit of a very huge team of developers and application testers. It will, for a while, be the leading provider of Blogging Software… it will take a serious effort to usurp their momentum. I don’t see MT being able to take that lead, if anything it’s like Michael Arrington said… a new player. That’s the only way WP is going anywhere… and even then, that new player will have to be a open and free as WP has always been.
I’m not sure what the issue is. I use both MT and WP for my personal sites, my clients and my friends and my family’s web sites. Each has pros and cons and each does different things well (and not so well). The key is choosing the right platform for what you are trying to accomplish.
I find MT’s template system much easier to work with than WP’s, but I find WP’s installation on LAMP servers easier than MT. For most of my sites, MT does not scale as well as WP but I like that MT outputs static HTML pages which is great for sudden spikes in traffic, whereas an basic installation of WP gets overwhelmed with a lot of traffic on a shared server.
A lot of people also recommend Drupal and Expression Engine, if you want to run a large community site and I don’t disagree — but like MT and WP, Drupal and EE also have pros and cons that you need to evaluate before choosing an underlying blog framework.
I’ve known the people behind both MT and WP for many, many years and I’m kind of surprised at this attempt at stirring up a pissing match. If I’ve learned anything over the years its’ that pissing matches between competitors create more problems than they help, unless all you are looking for is attention. And if that’s the case then I think someone needs to grow up a bit.
I saw MT’s license change screw people over. I got personally screwed over by LiveJournal and saw a lot of other people get screwed too. It’ll be a cold day in hell before I ever trust my data to Six Apart again.
However, I might download the GPL version of MT and use that, because I’m sick of having to have 2x OpenID plugins, an Atom plugin and a comment preview plugin that break with each Wordpress upgrade. It’s 2008, Atom and OpenID and comment previews should be standard functionality.
Wordpress guys are getting a bit sensitive…
@Anil - thanks for the clarification. I’ll fire our lying scumbag techie! I’ve just looked at his email from 2006 and he was pretty convincing at the time…
Typepad was great for starting out and really helped us, but once you hit scale I just think you need more control. Initially we upgraded to MovableType but it was more difficult than porting the while thing to WP.
It’s really just a case of horses for courses. Now kiss and make friends. There is plenty of cake to share around.
Anil, you wrote “I should think that the WP community would be more frustrated with Automattic not having the 2.5 release ready (or even a release date)…”
Sure, they are disappointed and we are as well, but as I would have hoped you could appreciate they would be more far disappointed if we released software that wasn’t ready.
We work hard to learn from our mistakes, and when 2.0 was released people were disappointed with the length between releases and concerned about the initial quality. Today, 2.0 is an example of stability and commitment with it being supported for security and critical fixes until 2010.
In 2007 we had 3 major releases. It was fantastic being part of that.
Near the end of 2007, we decided that 2.5 needed a longer schedule because it was time to take the WordPress experience to a new level. It will be released when it is ready.
Mozilla says it well:
“The first and most important thing to state is that we, as a project,
are quality driven, not date driven. We use dates to set targets for
milestones, and we strive to put out the best milestones possible, but
due to the changing nature of the web, we always judge each milestone
against our basic criteria of quality, performance and usability. The
other factor how we rely on community use and testing of our betas to
help us judge their quality.
http://blog.mozilla.com/ftr/20.....its-ready/