February 19, 2008

SGN Starts to Look Like a “Real Company.” Adds Jetman To Its Gaming Platform, About to Raise $10 Million

Erick Schonfeld

44 comments »

sgn-logo-new.png
(Update: SGN raised $15 million on May 13, 2008). It was only last week that the Social Gaming Network (SGN) and Zynga announced their respective developer platforms for games on Facebook and other social networks. I said the game is on between these two companies to win the hearts and minds of social gaming developers. The folks at Zynga took exception to this characterization. If you put all of its games together, Zynga is the 10th largest app company on Facebook as measured by number of installs. SGN is No. 51.

Venture capitalist and Zynga investor Fred Wilson accused me of not doing my homework in a post that set off a minor debate over the holiday weekend. After I commented on his post that the jury is still out on which of these young companies will succeed, Wilson responded:

Its not even debateable who is a real company and who is not.

Zynga CEO Mark Pincus also clearly feels that the comparison is not warranted. He told me of SGN:

It is just a thorn in my side. It is some bad ex-girlfriend who will not leave me alone. I think we are very clearly the leader in the space.

That thorn is about to get pricklier. Sources outside of SGN confirm that the company is about to raise as much as $10 million in a venture round. Multiple term sheets are on the table. None have yet been signed as the company studies its options. Says one competing VC who has done his due diligence and is eager to lead SGN’s round:

When all is said and done they will have as big a network as Zynga. Fred Wilson doesn’t understand what is going on.

Sounds like a debate to me.

If size is the determinant of a “real company” (which I don’t think it is), then SGN’s platform is already a whole lot bigger than just a week ago. In less than a week it has signed 10 Facebook games to its budding social gaming hub, including Jetman—one of the most popular games on Facebook—Pirates, and The Dot Game. It has also signed Free Gifts, a virtual gift-giving application on Facebook that includes the other seven of the ten games.

All told, the new apps will triple SGN’s daily active users from 200,000 to more than 600,000 on Facebook alone, bringing it substantially closer to Zynga’s 900,000. And in terms of the number of installs, the SGN network is getting much closer to Zynga’s 11.8 million (18.4 million including recently acquired CLZ Concepts and four other Zynga games not reflected in the stats), depending on how you count. Jetman alone has 3.8 million installs and 200,000 daily active users, SGN currently has 3.3 million installs, and Free Gifts has 10 million installs—but that is mostly for its gift giving app, which other gaming developers on the SGN gaming hub will be able to incorporate into their games.

Responding to Pincus’ quip, SGN CEO Shervin Pishevar says: “We are like an old girlfriend that got famous.” Noting that many of Zynga’s games are copycat versions of other games (Zynga’s Diveman is very similar to Jetman, for instance), he adds:

If you want to be a developer platform, you probably shouldn’t be copying developers’ games. If you want to compete with them, fine. That is why they are joining us.

So is it game over? Hardly. The games have just begun. But is SGN a real business? It is as real as any business built on Facebook.

Update: In an e-mail Pincus responds:

Wow erick.

A) you give them credit for traffic they don’t even own
And
B) you won’t give us credit for traffic (clz apps) we do actually own.

Do you even care how hypocritical sherwin is to accuse me of copycat games when he copied free gifts on bebo and risk on fb? Getting the irony? He is partnering with an app he literally copied in december while accusing me of this?

Erick, with all due respect I’m wondering if you work for sgn now?

I’ve updated the post to include the CLZ numbers, which are still counted separately by Adonomics, the data source I linked to. As for who owns what traffic, Pincus is right to point out that games Zynga owns and operates are probably worth more than games simply affiliated to any particular gaming network. But SGN’s deal with Jetman and Free Gifts is as tight as it gets without buying them outright. SGN will be hosting their apps, and Jetman’s developer will be creating more games for the SGN network. The battle here is over who will build the most powerful network and attract other developers, not who will buy up the most traffic.

Update 2: CLZ actually has 11.5 million installs, instead of the 5.3 million that Adonomics reports (it only counts 2 of CLZ’s 18 apps). But not all otehse are games (You’re Naughty, You’re a Hottie). I am beginning to really question how reliable Adonomics is. The SGN numbers are probably off as well. Also, all of these numbers come from Facebook, which currently has a bug with how it reports total installs. Daily active users is the better metric to use. Zynga has over one million daily active users, about double SGN’s (including Jetman and Free Gifts). Dead installs (i.e. inactive users) are only good for spamming.

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  1. Everett

    Now some real firepower behind the startup. Best of luck!

  2. Aaron

    Isn’t one of the cardinal rules of running a company, “Don’t rely on the competition being slow and/or stupid”? (I know, I’m paraphrasing.)

    I’m pretty sure Jetman is the first game I would have bought if I was trying to start a social gaming network.

    Both companies need new logos though. Why oh why did Adobe include all those beautiful presets with Fireworks?

  3. Erick

    Adonomics also has a company page for SGN: http://adonomics.com/company/Social_Gaming_Network

    Here’s Zynga’s: http://adonomics.com/company/Zynga

    I’ll let the data do the talking.

  4. Douche Radar

    The one thing missing from this conversation at the moment is: could Mark Pincus honestly be a bigger d-bag? Between stealing Risk (I mean Attack), Battleship (oops - Sea Wars), Warbook (duh - it’s Triumph) and Jetman (no, no, silly - it’s Diveman) he is the leader of a company with at least one foot in the copyright infringement space and two feet firmly planted in the zero-creativity space.

  5. Marzipan from Toledo

    girlfriends? these two sound like an old married couple

  6. Justice

    SGN does not own these assets (Jetman/Free Gifts). They are simply partners in their gaming hub. How does this get included in their total user counts?

    SGN’s total daily active users for their gaming hub was a whopping 111 yesterday.

    We know you guys have beef with what Fred Wilson said against you recently, but now you’re the ones looking truly unprofessional. If you take the time to look up some numbers the differences in these companies are huge.

    Zynga is approaching 2m daily active users in actual owned assets (they own CLZ as well), not 700k. There’s an order of magnitude difference here.

    SGN owns a risk knock-off. SGN tried to copy the success of Zynga’s scramble. SGN copied the successful facebook app Speed Racer with their Street Racing.

    Kudos on a well written unbiased article.

  7. Justice

    Oh also worth noting that Jetman is a decompiled “helicopter flash game” with a sprite removed and edited. This isn’t copyright infringement, it’s stolen code ladies and gentlemaen.

  8. Jenkins

    Dear Mr. Fred Wilson:

    The CEO of Zynga, Marc Pincus, came across in the above article like a MAJOR tool! I question his ability to run a company after this and, um, er, after Tribe.net. We’re not in the bubbletimes anymore when bad ideas made for good acquisitions. Get a grip on this guy!

    Jenkins

  9. Zach Allia

    First of all… daily actives / total installs really means nothing. Page views, and good user response is where it is at. If I wanted to, I could easily get Free Gifts to much more DAU using methods that I personally am against, but it would piss people off.

    Also, on the Bebo issue… Freewebs was very apologetic and offered to let me take over the Gift application if I wanted to. Another point to add is that they didn’t copy ME they copied GIFTS which is a facebook made application. Free Gifts is a whole different product.

    Zach

  10. Jesse Farmer

    Erick,

    This is Jesse, the CTO of Adonomics. A few updates:

    1. Where the data isn’t public we rely on people reporting changes to us. In the case of Zynga/CLZ Concepts the acquisition just slipped through the cracks. The Zynga company page now reflects that.

    2. The stats are 5 days old because Facebook’s numbers have been absurdly inaccurate for that period of time. They’re reporting things like negative users, or Top Friends having more installs than the population of Europe.

    3. I’m friends with the developer of Free Gifts, Zach Allia, and he’s definitely not owned by SGN. In fact, the list of applications for the SGN company page was supplied directly by SGN itself.

    4. We report three numbers: installs, daily active users, and % daily active users. It’s debatable which is best, which is why we list all three. DAU is suspect because the definition of “active” can and has changed at the whim of Facebook. With installs, at least, the metric is transparent, if not ideal.

    Cheers,
    Jesse
    CTO, Adonomics

  11. Justice

    Zach, repeat usage means nothing? What planet are you from? Visitor Loyalty? Visitor Volume? Page refreshes are worth more than most pounds of human flesh? Page views go up when people are browsing through pages (free gifts) or playing warbook where you go through 500 pages to attack some people in textual glory.

    You can’t just choose to compare apps by the metric on which you win. In fact, zynga just doesn’t make their page views public, so it’s a pretty easy argument for SGN and you to win. You say a number, and you’ve won. In all likelihood, they will beat you guys there as well.

    If you monetize with something other than CPM ads, pageviews are worthless. Zynga does this.

  12. Justice

    All other media measures by audience, and active audience… this translates to installs and daily active users.

    magazines dont measure by pages flipped and tv doesnt measure by seconds watched.

    more people = more money

  13. Justice

    When people are looking for a game network to publish to, do they care about how many pages people go through to get someting done in warbook 1990’s no-ajax style, or which network has the bigger audience?

  14. Zach Allia

    Justice ,

    I am from earth. DAU is so not equal to repeat usage or visitor loyalty in the least bit, it is just a silly metric that can easily be skewed. Free Gifts does not have high page views as the pages of gifts do not reload the page, so that is totally invalid.

    Zynga also only uses metrics that they win with so that is silly to say. I don’t understand why you are hiding the fact that you work for for them.

  15. Justice

    I don’t work for them, I’ve just done the research and plan on joining their network. I wouldn’t know the numbers if I wasn’t making a decision about where to put my games.

    In games I think DAU is a valuable metric. I can agree that in a gifts application you may have users which come back after a longer period. The important thing to remember is we are talking about games here.

  16. Zach Allia

    Justice - Bigger audience is a very relative term and to real developers it is much more about the community and their users.

  17. Zach Allia

    I think none of these metrics are good when looking at an entire collection of applications. Every application (regardless of what it is) has a different focus metric.

  18. Justice

    I think the numbers have to have some weight, and they look to clearly point toward Zynga right now. I’m sure it will be months before it is easy to tell which of these will be the ’successful’ game network, and these arguments sound a lot like the old HDDVD vs BluRay to me. The winner will be decided in the fight.

  19. Jenkins

    You guys might want to talk about revenue. It’s kind of important. With a recession coming the folks with no revenue are going to get wiped out! Gitty-up.

  20. spez

    I agree with #4

    Those two sound like an old married couple.

    I think Zynga CEO Mark Pincus probably learned a lesson from this though (I hope he has anyways). Bad talking your competition (or anyone for that matter) does nothing for your company other than make it look BAD.

  21. yongfook

    “You guys might want to talk about revenue. It’s kind of important. With a recession coming the folks with no revenue are going to get wiped out! Gitty-up.”

    I was going to say something similar.

    Two companies with no revenue arguing about which one is the “real” company? How cute. From the look of things neither has done any sales yet. I’m not seeing adverts in zynga’s games (the few that I bothered to install to see how they are monetising, which I then promptly uninstalled) - correct me if I’m wrong - and SGN hasn’t even launched yet. All this dick-waving about numbers and installs is nice and all, but if they are going to turn this into some childish public contest, the real metric has to be green. The company that can successfully monetise its audience and product is the “real” company, IMO. If they both manage to do that, awesome. If neither manage to do it, then kthxbai.

  22. Mark Pincus

    Oh, and I forgot to mention … Erick, your mother wears army boots!

  23. Zach Allia

    Youngfook - both companies make money, but they have a very different approach to revenue.

    Pincus said yesterday on his panel at GDC, that he thinks the way to make revenue is by “selling app installs” and that branded advertisement is basically worthless (which is ridiculous to say). Also, we have to remember that Zynga started off making money by installing toolbars, and that is totally not cool.

    SGN is using Video Egg on Warbook, and TJ said in the same panel that was profitable (he also gave numbers, but I don’t remember what he said).

    There is no doubt that both are real companies by every single metric that we have seen so far. However, this war over who is “the best” is being fought way to early in the game.

  24. Xavierv

    Wow, over 2 million comments on Techcrunch.
    Impressive!

  25. Zach Allia

    Erick - Your last sentence “Dead installs (i.e. inactive users) are only good for spamming” is not something that we have seen SGN do. We have seen Zynga do this with one of their apps, and there was a huge post on the facebook developer forums about it, but they deleted it.

  26. Long View

    Chance favors the prepared MIND! … TALK is CHEAP and ACTION speaks LOUDER than WORDS …

  27. Zach Allia

    Scratch the fact that it was deleted - here is the thread: http://forum.developers.facebo.....hp?id=6445

  28. Larry Larrikin

    Clearly the only way to settle this debate is which company has the most “web 2.0″ name. And that is Zynga, so they are the loser. Social Gaming Network, the most boring of pre web 1.0 style names, obviously plans to be in it for the long haul.

  29. Andy Triboletti

    Damn, they’re a real company now? Does that mean they have to start losing money?

  30. yongfook

    Zach > thanks for correcting me, I didn’t know both were generating revenue already. Pincus might have a point though - branded advertisment on THEIR network is essentially worthless when the audience is so fragmented and not particularly engaged by the content when the number of actual active users is so low.

    Advertising under this model is only worth it to the advertiser when you have a massive hit game that really drives traffic, like Desktop Tower Defense etc - and that doesn’t really seem to be the strategy here, with games like poker and blackjack that are nice time-wasters but none of them particularly stand-out games that drive traffic.

  31. guy_from_east

    The Guys at Zynga just really need to be quiet. Their constant complaining on what a journalist said is totally unprofessional, and only just shows how completely insecure they really are. If they really believe there better than SGN, then they just need to keep quiet and focus on improving their current product.

  32. Isaac

    I’m sorry, I thought I just read a journalist write that a business is serious because it now has “Jetman”…

  33. Terry

    I think the most interesting part of this, is that as far as I can tell chronologically, the first mud was sling by CEO of SGN a couple days ago in the prior blog outburst of rivalry. Now, everyone points to Zynga’s CEO as being the unprofessional one.

    Techcrunch obviously knew this and went to Pincus for a response to the dirt that was thrown at him. He obliged.

    The blog world is a funny one indeed.

  34. Kitarist

    Great article. It seems that everything cirlces about revenue now oh well

  35. Greg Magarshak

    Actually, we are building something that will hopefully be cooler than Zynga. But it won’t spread through facebook.

    By the way I didn’t know Zach was up to something big :)

  36. Jenkins

    Pincus looks like a total jerk. If I had just failed so badly in my last start-up I’d be a little careful about how I am viewed during my next gig. This is not a good start for the CEO of Tribe.net.

  37. rubu

    There is no doubt that both are real companies by every single metric that we have seen so far. However, this war over who is “the best” is being fought way to early in the game.

  38. CanCar

    In order to access to the games that Zynga offer, would have to make it through of a social site, or is a direct form to do it?

  39. Erick Schonfeld

    #32 and everyone talking about revenues, that is the right metric to focus on. Which is why I say SGN is “as real as any business built on Facebook.”

    Wilson is implying that Zynga is real and SGN isn’t, and he points to the same Adonomics metrics I cite above. So if one is real, so is the other. That does not preclude the possibility that neither one (or any app built on Facebook) is a real business. We’ll have to see if the revenues come in. Until then, all we have to look at are imperfect metrics.

  40. Drew

    Revenues mean shit right now. What matters are the games.

    And in that respect, SGN comes out handedly on top for WarBook alone. The gameplay is integrated into the social fabric and the common server handling between Bebo and Facebook is leading the industry.

    I’d back SGN any day.

    (Plus, do you really trust someone’s opinion in the social sphere if he differentiates between blogging and journalism?)

  41. Derek Johnson

    I saw Pincus on Monday at the GDC conference. He really needs to stop talking as his rants are starting to wear thin on everyone…and as suggested above he’s looking like a real tool. Marc shut the F up and get to work. Nobody cares about you and how great you think you are. Based on what I’ve seen so far, I’m backing SGN all the way. Pincus is too immature and egotistical to run a real company. What a tool!

  42. Mark Klinston

    Both Mark Pincus and Fred Wilson should be embarrassed by the energy and effort they are putting into trashing their competition.

    You’d think with all the success the both of them have had that they’d be able to show a little more class.

    I’m rooting for the underdogs in this one, though in reality, the potential size of this market suggests there could be many winners here.

  43. Bret

    If anyone’s interested, I posted detailed demographics (including male-female ratio and age breakdown) of the top ten games on Facebook.

    BTW, neither Zynga nor SGN have more than one game in the top ten.
    http://www.bretterrill.com/200.....etail.html