February 17, 2008

Fred Wilson - Hypocritical, Wrong and Conflicted

Michael Arrington

122 comments »

Fred Wilson lit a fire today suggesting that certain bloggers need to step it up a notch to improve quality and be more like mainstream journalists.

A fair point if spoken generally, although I’d argue that the quality of reporting done by many bloggers today, at least in the tech space, is equal to or better than most mainstream journalism. I think this is particularly true when we’re talking about breaking, non-embargoed news, where contacts and inside sources matter more than having all the time in the world to think about, research, write and edit an article. His point, therefore, should have been that all news writers need to step it up a notch and aim for better quality, which is sort of like saying nothing at all.

Normally I wouldn’t take issue with the statement, except that it was partially aimed at us. Wilson specifically called out our Erick Schonfeld for his post on social gaming platforms, as well as Matt Marshall at VentureBeat for a post he wrote about Like.

Wilson’s first gripe is that Matt, in his post about Like, didn’t give enough credit to competitor ThisNext. His second - that Erick, in his post on Zynga and SGN, suggested that the “two companies are neck and neck like Hillary and Obama,” when “Zynga is almost an order of magnitude bigger.”

Wilson fully discloses his conflicts of interest in the post - that he is a friend to the founder of ThisNext and an investor in Zynga. At that point, of course, a lot of the credibility behind his opinions comes into question. The two bloggers he is attacking have no conflicts with these startups.

He fails to realize that both Matt (San Jose Mercury News) and Erick (Fortune, Business 2.0) are seasoned mainstream journalists who’ve made the crossover to blogging. So his whole argument about blogging v. mainstream media loses yet more steam.

In reading the articles, it seems to me that Matt did an excellent job of highlighting a recent surge by Like while still noting relevant competitors. Erick’s post, which I am more familiar with, is in my opinion above reproach. Erick notes the strengths and weaknesses of both platforms and suggests that developers will ultimately make a decision as to which, or both, they will join. Erick also interviewed Wilson for the post and quoted him in it.

So what this really comes down to is this. Wilson didn’t like the coverage. But instead of simply disagreeing with and rebutting the points made in the posts, he went after the reputation of the writers themselves. That would be inappropriate even if he was right. But the fact that he was both conflicted and wrong makes it inexcusable.

Wilson failed to uphold the very standards of integrity that he demands from others. He failed to contact Erick or Matt before writing, and didn’t seem to have the facts to back up his argument. In a twitter exchange between us on this issue, he defended his sloppiness on the fact that he’s a blogger, saying “if you are a blogger you can say what you think, once you become a journalist, you have a different standard.”

Now, frankly, I’m confused. Bloggers can say what they think, but journalists can’t? I think what he’s trying to say is that Erick and Matt are no longer bloggers and now need to hold themselves to a higher standard - one that Wilson explicitly doesn’t hold himself to. That sounds like hypocrisy 101 to me.

Also, in a comment to his original post, he says “Erick didn’t get it wrong…but i think he missed the opportunity to get it right.”

How can you be both wrong and right at the same time?

Wilson partially retracted his post in a follow up, saying that he was sorry for singling out Erick and Matt, and saying that he “didn’t mean to take a shot at either of them.” But he then goes on to say that the whole exercise was a good one, since it started this great conversation on the issue.

That’s no apology, Fred. An apology would include you admitting that both posts were well researched and well written pieces. And that it was wrong to attack the reputation of these writers just because the conclusions reached by them were different than your own.

One last note. In the comments Fred says it isn’t even debatable that SGN is not a real company. From what we hear on the street, some very high profile venture capitalists are willing to bet some serious money that he’s wrong.

Update: Mathew Ingram says I went a little too hard at Fred here. I don’t necessarily disagree. Fred tends to come at people pretty hard, so I went hard back. But some readers won’t know that, so it’s worth pointing out.

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  1. Wei Xiao Bao

    Hi Michael,

    “A fair point if spoken generally, although I’d argue that the quality of reporting done by many bloggers today, at least in the tech space, is equal to or better than most mainstream journalism. I think this is particularly true when we’re talking about breaking, non-embargoed news, where contacts and inside sources matter more than having all the time in the world to think about, research, write and edit an article.”

    I can’t agree with you any more. Nowadays I just check blogs from people who are actually working in the industry. I do not read news articles from news writers or reporters. From this point of view, most news writers or reporters will lose jobs gradually. Let’s go and see it.

  2. Jeremy Pepper

    It’s amusing - it goes to a post I wrote a few weeks about truth versus blog truth. So, in a rush to being first on scoops on a blog (and, well, against the wires) is there a rush to push down the old rules of vetting? Does the jump from MSM journalism to SM journalism mean you get to ignore the old rules? Probably not, but it is a hyper accentuated medium that we work in.

    While I think the examples that Wilson gives are not necessarily the best, there are examples of wrong information (or bad examples) put out there.

    But, using Alexa for an argument? Ugh, bad form.

  3. Andrew C.

    I’ve actually been seeing this twitter exchange as it has been happening…and all I could think when I saw where it was headed was “Oh dear God, not another ‘Are bloggers journalists?’ argument.”

    Boy am I glad it just turned into a schoolyard spat instead!

    Nah, but seriously…Fred, you’re being hypocritical, quite whining and step up to the plate.

  4. Michael Arrington

    Jeremy - the issue isn’t, or shouldn’t be the desire to reach higher quality. That is a debate I am happy to have. The issue here is that Fred was just plain wrong in attacking the reputation of these writers. Did he even realize they were both ex-msm?

  5. Robert Scoble

    Ditto. I also think his answer that there’s some difference between bloggers and journalists misses the point. Either you have integrity or you don’t. Your readers will know when you do or don’t (they sure do know when I screw up). I want a good reputation, so care deeply about such things.

    By the way, anyone who quotes Alexa or Compete as being accurate really pisses me off. In my experience these things are hardly accurate and introduce a great deal of bias into the conversation themselves.

    Quoting them is almost as bad as quoting the Register or Valleywag (both organizations that have demonstrated over and over again that they don’t really care about the truth).

    Funny, when there were rumors about me and PodTech the only bloggers or journalists who called to hear our side of the story was Arrington and Venture Beat.

  6. Dmac

    Mike,

    At times your readership likes to hear the editorial opinion and other times some of us are left wondering why you bother to bring this stuff up at all. This post strikes me as something that clearly got under your skin and you weren’t able to brush off in private so now you are airing your laundry to your faithful.

    This is techcrunch. You got here by covering tech news and opinions about companies. Your public spats with well known VC’s should be below board for this blog; even if you think they have editorial relevance, let that debate happen somewhere else.

  7. Michael Arrington

    Robert - who called first? :-)

  8. Robert Scoble

    Michael: depends on which time. VentureBeat tends to be a little less salacious than you or me, though.

  9. Michael Arrington

    that’s because he’s an old MSM, and sometimes still worries about “balanced” stories. I don’t aim for balance, I just want to be right.

  10. Alan Wilensky

    There are Blogs (cap B), and there are blogs (little b). I am a little b.

    I got a call from a third level acquaintance that works at a Pacific Northwest investment bank; he was panting that, “the Microsoft deal is off the table.” Fill Stop.

    I asked for his attribution, he declined, and I wrote it up. If my blog was a destination, and I was taking ad or subscriber dollars, I’m not sure that I’d be so quick to publish.

    But as I’m really just a small time contractor, and not a professional journalist or even a capital B Blogger, I figured what the heck.

    I might turn the source over to a real writer with investigative resources, someone who can dig and substantiate the claims.

    Of course, if it turns out my source was / is accurate - well, then we know how it shakes, and folks might take some of my posts seriously.

    One last note: Fred Wilson is never, ever, wrong. Anyone who controls the doling out of capital is never wrong. <:?

  11. Jeremy Pepper

    @Michael

    I think it’s all in one - and that the attack on the people was not warranted, as he was, in a way, questioning their journalistic integrity. As for his knowledge of their background, I’m not him, so I can’t answer. :)

    My point is that this is a bigger, bigger discussion and a good one that is being aired out. I’m giving you kudos for pushing forward the discussion.

  12. Robert Scoble

    Oh, and while I got your attention, Michael, I think I found a new business model for you. I’d pay $50 a month to get the ability to post comments in green like you. :-)

    Heck, I’d pay $100 for red.

    And FastCompany might pay a lot more if they got to put a logo in there.

  13. fred wilson

    Mike

    I plead guilty to being conflicted. My bias and conflict is right there in my first post. I wish more people with a bias and point of view would get out there and tell us what they think.

    Be careful not to shoot the messenger too hard. It’s good for all of us to have this kind of debate.

    Yes, I didn’t like either post. Yes, I wanted to make a point. I’m sorry it came across as going after those guys and said so publicly in my second post.

    This is two way medium. Erick and Matt and you don’t get to control the discussion anymore. Neither do I. When you write something you can get attacked. They did and now I did.

    Time to move on.

    Fred

  14. Andrew

    emotions sometimes get the best of people. anyways, I have to say this article is very well written.

  15. Amit Chowdhry

    In support of your viewpoint, Mike, bloggers are becoming more reputable that many mainstream, traditional publications. The New York Times and The Wall Street Journal are hiring bloggers or setting up their own quickly to be with the times.

    AllThingsD spun off from The Wall Street Journal. The New York Times acquired The Freakonomics Blog. Publishing content has become quicker through blogs whereas for traditional media, it takes so many steps to publicize content such as editing and approval from superiors.

    I’ve seen so many cases where news appears on TC and it took NYT or WSJ to get the articles online the next day or even the day after that. These days, people more faster than ever so traditional media needs to address this concern if they want to see themselves competing in the near future.

  16. fred wilson

    Robert

    I left a reply to your comment about comscore and alexa and compete on my blog.

    there were some good replies to both of our comments

    http://avc.blogs.com/a_vc/2008.....ent-156128

    fred

  17. Too Many Spammers on TechCrunch

    It’s really refreshing to see a post that isn’t filled with stupid spammers asking you to visit their crappy VC-funded site.

    Regardless, Michael, you make a good point. From my experience with traditional media outlets, they make tons of errors. I’ve been misquoted myself and I think that while there are some genuinely sleazy bloggers out there (just as there are sleazy journalists), most people are trying to be honest and sincere.

  18. Michael Arrington

    Fred - “Erick and Matt and you don’t get to control the discussion anymore.”

    When did we ever? or even try to? or want to?

    anyway, agree its time to move on. I’ve said my piece.

  19. Gordon Gekko

    hey you guys are always yappin about breakin a story. sounds pretty journalistic to me.

    nevertheless, i suppose people think a blogger turns into a journalist as soon as the blog becomes so big it becomes somewhat of a “go to” place for news, stories, etc.

  20. Michael Arrington

    side note - is it “saying your peace” or “piece?” interesting discussion here -

    http://www.usingenglish.com/fo.....piece.html

    http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl.....01884.html

    learn something new every day.

  21. Jason

    Who’s Fred Wilson? Why should I care what he says?

  22. Robert Seidman

    whatever the medium, there are journalists, there are columnists and there are hybrids. The internet eliminated a lot of the barriers involved with a guy in his bedroom choosing to be one, the other, or both.

    This conversation changed absolutely none of that, but, as some of us actually are in it for the entertainment too, thank you Michael and Fred.

  23. Michael Arrington

    Jason - because he may fund your next startup. He’s mean, but he’s a good investor. :-)

    Robert - yep. pass the popcorn.

  24. will

    you big boys all love to fight . . . . and make up . . . . :) (yes, I already see the making up happening)

    drama generates traffic, makes you guys “personalities” rather than just “writers/bloggers.” In the end, fighting makes everyone feel more important . . .

    Sadly it shifts the spotlight away from the entrepreneurs who’s sweat and blood are invested in the startup being written . . . and thus truly deserve the celebration. A 1,000 word post, a 60min spent on researching and writing will never really compare . . .

    lets wrap this thing up and move on to whats important please. . .the entrepreneurs, the startups, and the employees . . .

  25. @michael

    mike,

    1. I agree with your post. your points, as they are laid out in your post, are valid.

    however,

    1. Erick is just an example. Perhaps not the best one. In my opinion, he should have chosen Duncan who spouts personal opinion rather than a discussion or post based on details and calculations. I don’t pay TC (through my ad viewership) to listen to high school gossip.

    2. Journalists care about their audience. You should too! You and TC have started feeding us anything and everything these days, including public commentary, politics, naked Scoble (ohh la la!). If you read the comments and cared about us, you would stop. But you continue to inflict Duncan on us. A true editor would have cared, you apparently don’t.

    3. There are extremes on either end. If “National Enquirer” (SF Chronicle for those in Bay Area) folks were to publish their news in a blog format, would they be journalists or bloggers? Either way, they suck but let’s talk semantics here.

  26. Michael Arrington

    will - it’s not about feeling important, but it is about expressing personality. and in this case it was staking out territory on both sides - “don’t screw with my investments or I’ll get you” and “don’t question our reputation or I’ll get you.”

    here’s a secret - a lot of what we write about generates the traffic. And every day I sneak in a bunch of posts about startups that get the benefit of that traffic. Don’t worry, I love entrepreneurs and startups. What we are doing is good for them.

  27. Dave

    @24 (Will)
    Without money, would the entrepreneurs be putting in their blood, sweat, and tears?

  28. Michael Arrington

    michael - trust me, we listen to the comments. but people who comment are not even close to a statistically relevant part of our total audience. If all we did was listen to commenters we’d be paralyzed (we get very strong opinons directing us to do exactly opposite things, with the threat of leaving the blog). In the end we choose our own path, and people choose to walk it with us or not. that’s the beautiful thing about blogging.

  29. Evprator

    Enough with the off topic rants. This blog sucks!

  30. Michael Arrington

    evprator - and yet, you are here.

  31. geomark

    Another argument about whether bloggers are journalists. Getting pretty boring. The only people who care are the bloggers who are wannabe journalists, and the journalists who don’t get it and are frightened by blogging. I think that’s a pretty small number of people.

  32. Faramarz

    meh.. you can’t have a standard in this format Fred. bloggers don’t have at stake what the publishers do and they don’t have to answer to any stakeholders.

    Theres definitely a need for greater level of quality, but it’s a progression. just like the free market you have to let it take effect naturally. And as everybody is fighting to gain traffic and ad dollars, i don’t see how this load would not lead to better and better future.

    great content = more viewers = more revenue streams.

    But i have to note that i especially enjoy reaching TC because of Arrignton. Wrong or right, i want to hear his options (as he so ineloquently makes them)

  33. will

    @ Mike - point taken, and understood. I come here for the dog food - and the dog foods are the startups - thats why I’m always back regardless of the side show. (and do know that you share the same passion)

    @ Dave - I’m guessing you’ve never put your kids’ college education on the line to pursue (or joing) a startup? Having a portfolio of 10-20 investments does not come close to the emotional investment and financial risk an entrepreneur puts into his ONLY baby . . . 5 years invested in the best part of your 30’s or 40’s . . . its not an easy thing . . .

    (BTW we are all really lame. . . its president’s weekend are we are commenting on a blog 10PM at night)

  34. Faramarz

    correction: this road*

  35. @michael

    That’s sad Michael.

    a. I admire your mathematical acumen. You are good at looking at numbers. However, it seems you never read the concept of weighted mean. The people who comment on your posts are the ones who are the most passionate about it - one way or the other doesn’t matter. They are your cheerleaders, they are the ones telling others about it.

    b. @27 + Michael: If you cared about the entrepreneurs, you wouldn’t lower the quality of this blog. I have seen it go down, very down. Let’s choose Duncan again. He’s great at getting comments and increasing traffic but he makes us often wonder - does this blog have a focus (as it used to) or is it now just about spouting personal opinions? Remember, we come here to find out new cool exciting startups and….VOILA, your expert opinion and analysis of it. Duncan (sorry man!) lacks that. You also get pissed off too but at the end of a day you seem to be a man who has the capacity to think logically.

    c. Why am I saying so much? Why do I care to tell you that you are going down the drain? Think about it. Yes, you can respond with either - (i) Hey, you are not part of the people I am trying to target or (ii) I do care, let me make some changes. But don’t just say that I am not “statiscally relevant”. By the way, just so you know, 300 unique people is a good enough sample size for estimating the behavior of large populations - read up! ;-)

    http://www.surveysystem.com/sscalc.htm
    http://www.raosoft.com/samplesize.html

  36. dave

    its funny how scoble always seems to show up

  37. SGarvey

    Nice Michael! One of the things that draws me to TC are the well written stories. Yes, I may not agree with all the conclusions, but I think they are more balanced than not.
    It seems Freddy may have had a wine glass to many prior to posting such non-sense. The fact that you called him out speaks volumes and shows (at least me) that you don’t or won’t take shit from anyone. Furthermore, you stepping up publicly to *protect* Erick shows true leadership on your part.

  38. Michael Arrington

    Dave (and will) - yeah, saying entrepreneurs are only doing startups for the money is like saying people only donate to charity for the tax writeoff. The ROI on doing a startup only makes sense for insane people who attach utility to risk. Economists say rationale people do the opposite.

  39. Gordon Gekko

    @36

    Ha! Good one. It’s like watching the discovery channel. You know sooner or later a Hyaena will make an appearance…

  40. Garth

    You are describing yourself here:

    “Wilson fully discloses his conflicts of interest in the post - that he is a friend to the founder of ThisNext and an investor in Zynga. At that point, of course, a lot of the credibility behind his opinions comes into question.”

    You have claimed over and over that your conflicts are disclosed and that is all that matters, why is somebody who is a VC and not trying to become a news orginization held to a higher standard by you?

    Your long rambling attack response reminds me of a bitter and guilty Roger Clemens in front of congress, not journalism.

  41. Tim Davis

    Mike,

    People make mistakes and have a natural interest in trying to defend companies where they have a vested interested - similar to you defending a post on perhaps DanceJam (you may or may not not this has come up :) ) Some could argue that blog writers are influenced by those who advertise on their pages - and fair enough. If you were using hard enough money to invest on advertising on a blog - and then you got a really bad wrap - you probably wouldn’t be all tha impressed.

    That said - you’ve called Fred to the table, he has responsed in turn and admitted he acted wrongly. Good debate, but agree its time to move on.

    Tim

  42. @michael

    @39:

    Thank you? :) Honestly, I didn’t get you. Can you please explain in detail?

  43. Erick Schonfeld

    Sometimes I feel like Michael is my lawyer. :) Thanks for the vigorous defense.

    The only point I’ll add to this whole nerd fight is that if you look at Fred’s original post, the Adonomics data that he uses to prove that I did not do my “homework” is the exact same data I link to in my post. So this really isn’t a debate about the facts.

  44. Ian Bell

    While I agree with a lot of what you are saying Mike, calling him out on TechCrunch seems pretty unfair to me. I mean, he is posting on his personal blog an opinion, not in the Wall Street Journal, not on TV, nowhere with a huge audience. And you pick him apart on TechCrunch instead of CrunchNotes for everyone to see? Does it give you power to have your audience agree with you against him?

    I read TechCrunch to learn about new companies, not to see you carry a beef against someones blog post.

    I guess when I come to think about it, you probably just proved Fred Wilson’s point eh?

    Let’s keep your personal gripes on CrunchNotes, and the professionalism on TechCrunch.

  45. Scott Converse

    If Fred didn’t have a rep for being thoughtful, interesting and usually right, I doubt we’d be having this discussion. I also think a blogger has MORE cred then most MSM journalists.

    Case in point: 3 days ago David Cohen, author of the Colorado Startups blog and founder of TechStars, found out we’d sold our website URL and a license of the software to a company in Texas. He emailed me and asked me what’s what. He waits for my input before blogging about it. The Boulder County Business Report, a weekly business newspaper, heard the from a flawed source we’d sold the company. They got virtually every fact wrong. They called and left a voicemail asking me to call them back then promptly posted the completely incorrect story 2 hours later and emailed it out in a daily update to their readers and posted it on their site (i.e. now it’s findable via search engine).

    Who was more responsible and why?

    David’s personal rep is on the line. To most of the people I know, that’ having ALOT more at stake then the publishers do. What else do we have in business beside our reputations? David (or any good blogger), assuming they don’t deal in rumors, waits to get the facts from all sides before he blogs about something. The Newspaper story had no author, just the ‘entity’ of the newspaper, and they run with one uniformed hearsay source and put it on the net (and now I have investors, employees and friends emailing me asking what’s going on).

    Given a choice, I’d rather bloggers with personal reps to protect break all news. They’re accountable and far more accessible than any MSM story without a byline- which it seems is more and more the case.

    Fred may have pissed off some people, but it’s his rep and I salute him for saying what’s on his mind, be it right, or wrong. To Fred I say: Keep it up man. You and other VC bloggers like David C., and Brad Feld, along with several others, have, overall, made the tech world a much more transparent, understandable and interesting place to be.

  46. Munjal Shah

    Michael, Om, Matt - it is time for the Alexa for Revenue. It is time Web 2.0 grows up to be real businesses. I don’t see why you guys can’t ask a startup to show you their revenue numbers like I showed Matt and Michael (when he wrote about our Likesense product) before you guys write a positive article. Frankly just by asking for this you all will help drive a healthy shift toward profitability for all startups in this area. My full thoughts here (I did a trackback but it didn’t show up)

    http://munjal.typepad.com/reco.....e-ale.html

  47. @michael

    @44/Ian:

    Michael doesn’t care. As he says earlier in a comment, and I paraphrase, “I don’t really care what the readers think. I will say what I want, take it or leave it”

    So why do you believe he is going to care about anything you have to say? A post like this will get published again and again, irrespective of the beautiful (and rightfully so) argument that you just made.

    Michael to Ian: “YOU AH NAUT STA-TIS-T-CULLY RELEVANT” (spoken like ahnold)

  48. Michael Arrington

    Ian - fair point, but Fred has a very large audience and I think he can fully defend himself. Plus, he started it. :-)

  49. Michael Arrington

    @michael - hey, take it easy. don’t turn a statement about commenters in general into something personal. I value the input, we just don’t make our editorial decisions based solely on what commenters say. Like I said, people I respect (including you) give us completely conflicting advice. Don’t fault me for making decisions based on my own judgment. If you think about it, and remove the emotion, you’ll see what I mean.

  50. @michael

    what happened Michael, still punching numbers in the URLs I sent to dismiss my 300 number?

  51. Bjorn Tipling

    I read BlogRunner before I read the New York Times, because BlogRunner is about a day a head of mainstream news. Quality not withstanding, mainstream media can’t keep up with the speed of blogs. Individuals will just have to start getting better at reading blogs critically, they should be doing that with news anyways.

  52. @michael

    I respect your analysis. I am not taking it personally. Again, from a marketing perspective, you are a genius!

    All I am saying is, put a leash on that Duncan guy. And teach him some analytical and logical thinking skills. Geez, he sucks!

  53. Robert Scoble

    dave: TechCrunch is one of my favorite blogs. Why wouldn’t I show up? If you ask Mike he’ll tell you that I was one of the first bloggers to link to him, so I’ve been doing this since very early in TechCrunch’s existence.

  54. Michael Arrington

    Munjal - sure we ask, and often get the data. but there are competitive reasons why comapanies don’t want this information to be known publicly. A big part of crunchbase is hidden data on financing valuations and revenue numbers. We use that to help guide our posts, but agree not to publish it if requested before they tell us.

    plus, entrepreneurs lie early and lie often about revenue.

  55. Michael Arrington

    @michael - ok cool. glad you agree that I’m right. :-)

  56. Larry Larrikin

    MA wrote: “I’d argue that the quality of reporting done by many bloggers today, at least in the tech space, is equal to or better than most mainstream journalism.”

    I guess you’ve never read anything by Duncan…

  57. @michael

    a) Look who’s talking about removing emotion ;-)

    b) Let’s remove emotion. But you have to agree, larger trends remain about this blog:

    (i) The quality is going down. You guys used to truly analyze and report in the post. Not anymore.

    (ii) You do personal blogs that should not be on the main page. Just, for this post, several folks have said that.

  58. Ian Bell

    Sorry for sounding harsh. It’s because I care. Promise!

  59. @michael

    @56/Larry:

    say something that proves you are not me. Or michael will believe I am posting under another name. ;-) Because we are both saying that many posts say everyday when Duncan posts - he sucks!! he blows!! he is just plain bad!!

  60. Michael Arrington

    @michael - yeah, i don’t agree with a, b, b(i) or b(ii) in your comment. the rest is spot on though.

  61. @michael

    Michael:

    you don’t have to agree. Just like you said it, I believe what I believe.

  62. @michael

    And you do agree. Your comment #48 says that.

  63. Charlie Anzman

    Well, you’ll never know what you find on TechCrunch.

    I too watched this unfold today with interest.

    Two points
    1) CNN’s iReport is aimed at one thing and one thing only. Having ‘reporters’ and/or photojournalists all over the world for FREE. ‘Old school’ journalists that haven’t kept pace are sitting around waiting for the pink slip, whether or not their reporting is ‘perfect’.

    2) AMAZING to see Robert Seidman chiming in here. For those of you that don’t remember, Seidman had a listserv newsletter at the very beginning of the Internet, profiling companies, and making predictions (that were often right when I was wrong). He was at IBM at the time and knew the landscape. Wall Street (OR the mainstream media) didn’t have a clue about the ‘coming’ tech and Internet revolution.

  64. Munjal Shah

    Michael

    Hmm… Really?… I’m surprised but I guess I shouldn’t be.

    If this is the case short of audited financials (which take too long to come out) this may be hard to circumvent.

    You know are welcome to come and review our financials anytime. Seriously. I’ll show you cash collections from customers into the bank account - much harder to fake that.

    My main point is that we gotta find a way to shift the conversation toward the level 2 metrics of any new technology wave (traffic / usage is level 1, revenue level 2, profitability is #3).

    I have stayed pretty quiet since the launch of Like.com in Nov 2006 because we didn’t have any significant things to announce from a financial perspective. I didn’t think talking about another feature was worth it. The only thing we spoke about was Likesense our new advertising technology which you covered. Moving the site to a full GA from an alpha / beta is the other thing we are talking about.

    It just felt like after the launch we should hunker down and build the business. I think there are a lot of entrepreneurs like that who will start showing up with serious revenues. Heck maybe some of them will even surprise me.

  65. Michael Arrington

    note my update in the post.

  66. Clyde Smith

    I refuse to take this seriously until I see you laddies in the Octagon.

    Two go in.

    One comes out!

  67. patricia

    He’s wrong. The only way bloggers need to be more like mainstream media is in how they manage their business because the model is basically the same. It would benefit blogs to structure, monetize, expand and grow using media’s model. The rest is left to the beauty of the independent voice and I don’t know if anyone will ever succeed in dictating what that should look/sound like. This kind of thinking is a little narrow because in the end, the big picture isn’t going to have the big divide that exists between media and blogs today. Media will be significantly if not entirely digital in the future, meaning blogs would be more like the independent press and free to produce their product however they’d like.

  68. Michael Arrington

    it’s funny how the fights always break out on the weekend.

  69. Dissapointed

    Michael,

    When you say “Wilson fully discloses his conflicts of interest in the post - that he is a friend to the founder of ThisNext and an investor in Zynga. At that point, of course, a lot of the credibility behind his opinions comes into question.”, you make very little sense.

    Firstly, Fred’s trying to make a valid point about the quality of tech blog posts, and he cites the two examples he’s most familiar with; that doesn’t take anything away from his argument. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem).

    Secondly, he’s presenting an opinion. Its pretty silly to talk about the “credibility” of opinions.

    Lastly, he’s talking about particular blog posts by Erick/Matt - not attacking them personally. But it was easier for you to twist that intent to make your point. Reminds of Fox News. There is a bullying tone in this post, which is quite disappointing.

  70. Bully Boy

    Mike you are a classic bully boy who uses the influence of this blog to get his own way whether right or wrong. Everyone knows its not worth criticizing you because you simply write posts like this and if that fails you get your “friends” to blog about it too.

    In 5 years time, when we look back, the daily noise you make will not matter.

  71. Jim

    Two words: fact checking (the difference between blogging and MSM)

  72. Joseph Hunkins

    There is only one way to settle this: A Web 2.0 Fight Club bare knuckle battle to the death, sponsored by TechCrunch.

  73. Xavierv

    That’s exactly for those kinds of discussions that I read Techcrunch. You guys can pull out some great debate, on the spot, with top-ranked bloggers, about trendy topics.

    Can you pass the popcorn…

  74. mobilekick.com

    Oh boo-yah big time, major league burn Arrington style /me likes ftw Suck it Fred Wilson.

  75. plop

    As you know full well Mike I love an opportunity to have a digg at the opinions you guys here at TC make. However, In this case you made your arguments crystal clear and this is one of the posts / reasons that brings me back to TC everyday.

    Great article.

    Your loyal critique.

  76. Debbie Davies

    ‘all news writers need to step it up a notch and aim for better quality’

    Why not set your standards by these guys, all writers like you, all young men like you, all dead: Paul Douglas (CBS, US), James Brolan (CBS, US), Jose Couso (Telecinco, Spain), Taras Protsyuk (Reuters, UK), Tareq Ayoub (al-Jazeera, Qatar), Christian Liebig (Focus, Germany), Julio Anguita Parrado (El Mundo, Spain), Kamaran Abdurazaq Muhamed (BBC, UK), Michael Kelly (Washington Post, US), Kaveh Golestan (BBC, UK), Paul Moran (ABC, Australia), Terry Lloyd (ITN, UK), my dad.

  77. plop

    this story broke over the last few weeks and would have been a much better example for Fred to have used if he wanted to attack the opinions of bloggers.

    http://thenextweb.org/2008/02/.....-the-hoax/

  78. plop

    @Debbie Davies

    I hope you now write/blog etc. if so pls give blog address. I can sense you have a story to tell.

  79. Don Park

    Well, I think this post should have been a CrunchNotes post, not a TechCrunch post.

  80. Tech For Novices

    Dear MA

    Our usual minus two cents worth. You probably would not read this since we are neither a famous J nor a famous B.

    So here it is

    The blog which you are pointing out… had an article sometime back regarding techmeme. I searched it

    http://avc.blogs.com/a_vc/2007.....-caut.html

    which probably got the publicity desired

    So we guess this one is the next stunt - attacking techcrunch

  81. Roman

    sometimes I feel like these debates are somewhat fabricated to stir up controversy and increase exposure, page views, etc.

    Is this really that big of a deal?

    blogs are…. blogs. each writer writes multiple stories a day and so some posts aren’t great, some are wrong, some lack research, some have typos, and some are really interesting and well written. The fact Fred thinks a couple stories sucked doesn’t matter… EVERYONE has read a story on Techcrunch or VentureBeat and thought ‘wow reading that story just completely wasted my time.” It’s really not that big of a deal…

    and I really agree with 79. Fred’s blog is his personal blog, Techcrunch is a company that people read for news and reviews… it’s not the place for “feuds” between people

  82. CAR

    morFuckingon

  83. Roman

    @3. Robert Scoble — “By the way, anyone who quotes Alexa or Compete as being accurate really pisses me off.”

    Check out the new Crunchbase profiles with compete and quantcast graphs embedded :)

  84. Mark

    actually, you both have a good point.

    *bloggers are inferior to journalist! mostly, they didn’t go through any training and usually there is no real moderation..it’s like a point and shoot digital camera.

    another interesting point will be experience - Arrington went from being a lawyer to being the Executive editor/ Columnists / Publisher / Owner….seriously, think about it:)

    **that said, tech was always a weak point and Arrington was smart enough to take advantage of it. also, he seems to be reasonably smart and fairly honest.

    **i would love to see more blogs like Daring-fireball. he knows that he is not a journalist and he doesn’t wish to become one. his blog is different, interesting and extremely accurate. besides the fact that he is a genius…you can really trust him.

    Mark,
    Copenhagen, DK

  85. Mark

    P.S - we need more intelligent bloggers! abusing the notorious “”changing the world”" statement just make you bloggers look insecure and a bit foolish:)

  86. dbfarber

    Been over this ground before…the blogger/journalist dichotomy isn’t useful…it’s about who you trust as a reliable, incisive and perceptive source of information, whether it’s ZDNet, TechCrunch, VentureBeat, GigaOm, NYT or a lone blogger in his or her basement. As Mike pointed out both Matt and Erick are seasoned writers and researchers with years of MSM experience. Fred points to some posts he disagreed with and has a personal stake in the subject matter. Startups like TechCrunch, VentureBeat, GigaOm, ReadWriteWeb, as well as my own ZDNet blog network, have earned enough trust among readers to be valued sources of information to millions of people on a monthly basis–they teams work really hard, produce a lot of content with limited resources and for the most part get it right, and if not it’s part of an ongoing dialog that tends to correct itself. They are smart, they hustle, get to the point quickly with some perspective, and stimulate conversation.

    The need for speed, which is part of being competitive and in a fast moving industry, can impact the depth and fullness of stories, the amount of context provided. Readers (or Techmeme) don’t necessarily reward with their clicks the best written, most fully researched posts with their shrinking attention spans. But those of us doing this job know that quality wins over quantity, shallowness or just refactoring other people’s work without adding value.

  87. Not Duncan

    Hey, for the record I like Duncan’s posts and disagree with the other commenters that continually harass him. I like posts with personal opinions on the topic at and hand and not just dry facts. I don’t always agree with him, but that’s fine, I still find him point of view valuable. I have been reading TechCrunch for a longtime and think it has adapted very well to its growth.

    I think comments tend to be very biased to the negative because that is human nature, happy people don’t tend to see the need to comment. Michael is right to only consider the comments as one (small) input into how he drives TechCrunch forward.

  88. Jenkins

    I read Fred’s blog on occasion. He has lots of conflicts. In fact, his blog is riddled with them. I sometimes think his blog exists to espouse ideas that align with his portfolio, which is his right to do, although it is sometimes over the line IMHO.

  89. Nicole Simon

    It all boils down to perspective. X is bigger than Y is always always a subjective view - and even with numbers like revenue, you edit that numbers quite good. (Guess why certain companies still pay dividends although their results are bad and alike.)

    What more bloggers should do is realize that their views are most likely personal and if they claim they are objective (”this is a fact” “compared to x”) they need proof to back it up and should be professional enough to research critically.

    As such I agree that if somebody is involved with a company and then states “is bigger than” it is even more relevant to prove by independent measurements why you have the opion (not fact in most cases).

    I do not find it inexcusable, but more stupid - as if readers will not notice and make a mental mark on it.

    My view: Should bloggers decide that they want to go pro, they need to bring more to the table than Joe normal Blogger.

  90. Rick

    @Jim: MSM and fact checking? What rock have you been living under the past decade?

  91. mark

    this is a ridiculous debate, but feel compelled to say one thing to fred…you can’t get out of taking responsibility for your posts/views by saying “i was just trying to strike up a debate on the issue”. that’s sorta what it sounds like you’re doing

  92. AEP528

    There’s one thing that I think a lot of people overlook, but it is hinted at in the comments on this post. Whether it’s a blogger, newspaper reporter, columnist, whatever, is an article/post/video being passed off as fact or opinion?
    A “news” site must be held to a different standard than an opinion site. I fully expect the NYTimes site to have fact- and spell-checked articles that are as fully vetted as possible, and the opinion pieces are clearly marked as such. On the other hand, I fully expect the ZDNet blog site or John Dvorak to be more about shock value and page views.
    The problem is with sites like TechCrunch, where news and opinion are mixed together, and it isn’t apparent if an article is about a company, product, or service I might be interested in, or merely one of Arrington’s rants.
    As far as the blogger versus jounalist nonsense, consider this: Blogs are not much more than CNN for the web. Think about it. A continuously updating feed of news, commentary, and interviews. Click on a link or change the channel. It’s an old concept adapted to a newish medium.

  93. Repy to Don Park

    Don: Mike’s little secret. He only posts to crunchnotes if he doesn’t want to give traffic to the post. He uses TC as a bully pulpit because of the traffic. Crunchnotes is where he puts the throw away posts.

  94. Owen Byrne

    Apologies if I use examples specific to my interests, but

    The problem is that people are holding bloggers to a standard (the MSM) that is largely mythical. Fact checkers in the media are a long extinct species. In fact, I would say bloggers actually do a better job - if only because of comments. When Eric Schonfeld promulgated the myth that Kevin Rose can actually write code (http://www.techcrunch.com/2008/02/12/building-a-killer-web-app-in-45-minutes/) he got called on it - repeatedly - in the comments.

    But the MSM today published a piece about digg (http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/technology/article3386033.ece) stating it was founded in 2003. Something that 30 seconds on wikipedia would have revealed as incorrect. Really shoddy work.

    And you guys even fixed the misspelling of my name (which was there forever) in the latest crunchbase redesign. Thanks!

  95. Ray Burt

    Let the readers beware.

    Bloggers undoubtedly want to have more readers, more content.

    Like Rush Limbaugh, Arrington is an entertainer at heart (as are most successful media personalities).

    I’ve always believed that they laught themselves to the bank — believing less than 20% of what they say/write, but know they are saying stuff believable and interesting to sad lemmings who waith breathlessly for the next Arrington missive — eager to quote him at parties.

    In essence, they serve a purpose — provide entertainment to those who fail to be able to think for themselves. But beware..they leave out more than they add in — otherwise, their success would be muted.

  96. Jenkins

    Totally agree with Ray.

  97. Kevin

    Michael,

    Disregarding the argument on both sides, this is a very nuanced discussion yet you posted a hysterical, inflamatory blog title, whereas Fred posted an “i’m sorry” follow-up (although not completely), and reached out. You kept the salacious title, which will be crawled in a few days and will go immediately to the top for a “Fred Wilson” search, potentially ruining his name.

    I suggest you move your “Update” from the bottom to the top for those that might only have a few seconds to judge the character of Fred Wilson, and change the title of the entry. If it was anywhere other than the front page, I’d say you could keep it.

    Cheers,
    Kevin

  98. David Kirkpatrick

    This discussion is important. The sources of information are shifting and none of us has all the answers. I’m not sympathetic to the Wilson posting, but no matter.

    Many blogs, including some hosted and sponsored by MSM, are routinely trafficking in sensationalism and pejorative insults rather than analysis and reporting. Clearly that is becoming evident to more and more readers, who are asking where they should go for information and intelligent opinion. That is why this thread contains such lengthy and passionate dialogue.

    But it amazes me how many hypocritical posters come here and to other comment threads to demand transparency and accuracy, then themselves hide behind anonymous monikers, like for example “69. Dissapointed,” “70. Bully Boy,” “88. Jenkins” and many others.

    In this weird transitional era it’s all just text on the Internet, regardless of whether it’s published by Fortune, TechCrunch, or in a discussion thread. Anyone with an interest in accuracy and honesty should show their commitment to those values by being as transparent about their own identity and affiliations as possible. Otherwise it’s impossible to take their opinions seriously.

    -David Kirkpatrick, Fortune

  99. dbfarber

    Agree with Kirkpatrick…transparency in this kind of discussion is essential…

  100. Jimbo

    I just read some of Wilson’s blog posts. Appears to be a VC-blogger power-broker wannabe, a la Graham, and going through his growing pains (e.g., defensive about being based in NY).

    Too bad his cred=nil now.

  101. Jesse

    Erick is like the best writer ever.

  102. P

    “But instead of simply disagreeing with and rebutting the points made in the posts, he went after the reputation of the writers themselves.”

    Ah, yes the joys of intelligent, reasoned, online discussion. Never seen that happen before.

  103. Theman

    Please get some educated scientists in here. This post is annoying and just meant to drive traffic. I am tired of these Digg-made posts, that Michael and his 10+ Digg accounts love so much.

    The real problem is somewhere else: the not standardized way we measure success of a startup. Just follow the discussion about Myspace and Facebook. While Myspace is worldwide growing at an incredible speed (with incredible revenues)…Facebook solely makes the news at Techcrunch (with a few exceptions).

    I think Wilson made a good point: At one point you have to decide whether you turn Techcrunch/Venturebeat into a NYTimes or if you rather direct it into a yellow press paper.

    Second one certainly drives more traffic…and it seems that Michael and some of the writers prefer it that way. (would be interesting to see if Techcrunch pays their writers by generated traffic :-))

  104. Saagar

    Classic display of egos hiding facts, Fred points out at Erick probably wantedly or just citing an example, and Mike does what he is best at, use his hugely popular techcrunch to get down to personal abuse, naming him hypocritical, wrong and conflicted. I guess you need some counseling Mike before your ego becomes too big for you to carry around. I guess staying out of all attention for some time would help you. Think of the days when you started TC and the humble attitude you used to carry around, correcting yourself when pointed at. Hope that helps :)

  105. MikeT

    A blog is a blog and if it wanted to be part of MSM it would give a clear message about it.
    Otherwise, it is an opinion of a certain person or group of like-minded people that may be biased (it’s a blog, remember?), may be a rant against some person or company, may not follow the MSM rules of article writing, may be just a bunch of random thoughts etc.

    These differences from MSM makes a blog something special that will be visited by people who are interested in its content. These differences make the blog popular and keep it alive.

    As soon as a popular blog will change its style, direction, things/events it covers, it risks losing part or all of its audience because this would be a change of its fundaments. The way a blog is keeps people coming back to it - this is what made the blog popular (if it is popular).

    If TC or any other tech blogs I visit daily was to switch to the dry MSM style, I am not sure if I would visit it as often as I do it now…

  106. MMG

    There is so much absurdist irony in this whole affair, that I had to join the fray and blog about it: http://rapspace.tv/member/mmg/.....journalism

    Peace,

    MMG

  107. Preston

    What I can’t figure out is why Fred thinks he’s just a blogger. Is it because he donates his earnings? He’s been doing this since 2003. He’s probably in top 100 technorati (although I haven’t looked). That’s about as problogger as it gets and he failed to follow the rules.

    In the end, the companies he was trying to pump up get more PR than they would otherwise, so the VC wins, even though he loses.

  108. S

    He is right, about TechCrunch at least.

    The writing on this site is filled with errors, typos, and many times, just opinions instead of facts for the sake of saving time.

    Get higher quality writers and pay them more.

  109. Evprator

    Pot calling the kettle black. You guys never learn.

  110. McD

    Michael,

    Fred should fund a company to meet his “standards” for blogging about start-ups. Would it be a good investment? Or does controversy help the bottom line?

  111. Blake

    I side with Wilson, who has a good point. TechCrunch and other sites have tremendous power and influence and should do fact-checking and other information quality assurance activities.

  112. KM

    Fred Wilson is nauseating. His opinions are often so wrong, yet he’s so arrogant, who would want him as an investor?

  113. Michael Arrington

    Blake - do you think that, maybe, we got to a position of influence based on the quality of the writing we do?

  114. Digidave

    @Michael

    I agree with you in general - but I do think Wilson still brings up a few good points that you have to recognize.

    TechCrunch and other super-blogs (VentureBeat, GigaOm, etc) are well beyond personal blogs. In that sense - they have a responsibility to get things right and produce quality content.

    But as you noted: So do all journalists. For me “blogging” isn’t about WHO is behind the words, blogs are just a CMS - a really easy one that anyone can use.

    Your bloggers are journalists (they get paid a professional salary). The problem is - as you noted - you guys cover a very fast moving space: Technology. It’s understandable that you have to use anonymous sources, tips, etc. But you have to recognize that you are taking a risk whenever you do that - and if people call you out on it, take that criticism.

    On a side: One project I work for is called NewsTrust.net: Think Digg meets Poynter - ie: You don’t just “digg” articles - you rate them based on journalistic integrity. Perhaps Techcrunch could get some good feedback with this tool on where you can improve (and that’s not a potshot at Techcrunch… as you noted: All journalists can improve).

  115. Ian Knox

    Once a blog is too professional (i.e. sanitised) it becomes boring. Thats what newspapers are for. It is the rough, honest edges that makes blogs worth reading. As an Australian (not sure if it goes for other countries) I find it constantly amusing to read articles in a newspaper that have obviously been sourced from blogs that I have read not weeks, but usually months earlier. If TechCrunch improves its standards it will be time to read something else!!

  116. Tequila Al

    The article is a direct stab at the mentioned. I call it behind the screen mean. I used to have a business partner that was so nice in person but put him on a keyboard and wow, what an asshole. I figure he wasn’t very popular or social as a child so this was his way of trying to get even. What he really needed was a good ‘ol Texas ass kicking. My wife is a journalist and she’s the first to admit that journalists know a little about alot. Bloggers know alot about a little and simply write their “opinion” you have to take it with a grain of salt. To this day, i’ve not met the perfect person and don’t plan on it. MA had to call him on his post, that’s what you do when you get old and experienced. The young guy would just bitch about it. Brush it off, sip some tequila and move on. Life is good.

  117. Ben

    I have to comment