February 8, 2008

Ballmer Confirms Yahoo Brand Will Live On, MSN The Likely Casualty

Duncan Riley

37 comments »

myahoo.jpgWe’ve speculated previously that Microsoft would retain the Yahoo brand, but until now its been a well educated guess. In a BusinessWeek article, Steve Ballmer now confirms it, saying simply that “Yahoo, the brand, will live.”

It’s a decision that will come at a cost, because it leaves Microsoft with three brands where it should only really have one, but can at least sustain two (MSN and Live being their current brands). MSN is the obvious candidate to join the Deadpool.

As TechCrunch readers pointed out last time, the appeal of Yahoo’s brand is not universal. Yahoo has all but completely failed in much of Western Europe, so there may be grounds to retain the MSN brand there, but it’s unlikely. Yahoo leads where it counts, in the United States and Asia. In China and Japan the local Yahoo portals are separate companies that are not majority owned by Yahoo, so unless there’s a contract in place that would allow Microsoft/ Yahoo to regain control of the Yahoo naming rights in those countries (unlikely, but not impossible), Yahoo will continue to live on there. Yahoo remains the strong brand in countries where Yahoo majority owns the brand in much of the rest of Asia, and this is key growth territory going forward, unlike Western Europe where internet user growth is low.

Live is the newer brand of the three, but given its strong tie-in to Windows I can’t see Microsoft dropping it, although as the logo I’ve added to this post suggests, Yahoo Live Search does have possibilities, even if it means Yahoo Live (the newly launched live streaming service) might then become Yahoo Live Live.

Which brand should Microsoft Drop post Yahoo acquisition?
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  1. TheDuhMoment

    They should go with MSNHOO?

  2. bt

    new name will be HOT.com
    since MSFT will own HOTMAIL and HOTJOBS
    you heard it here first

  3. YDRIVE

    Good and great, and for $44B, smart decision.

  4. Spence

    I think MSN will go, but it does has significant strength in markets with high barriers of entry. Maybe a merger of the brands, MSNYahoo? That would keep Live seperate for the Window app tie-ins. Not sure how much of overlap they would lose but it would have some benefits, especially in Mapping, Mail and IM.

  5. Robbie

    You crack me up….

    Yahoo leads where it counts, in the United States and Asia….

    With the US slowly being driven towards a recession guess what happens to advertising revenue….. Europe could be key if they want to gain traction and get a foothold in the mobile industry….

  6. Duncan Riley

    Robbie
    We’re talking about a US company acquiring a US company (so the US will naturally be the first consideration), and recession aside it’s still just the largest internet market in the world. Combine that with China (soon to be the biggest) and billions in Asia (including India) vs 720m odd million in Europe and 495m in the EU (so smaller again in W. Europe) and the numbers favor Yahoo over MSN. Sure, mobile growth in Europe is appealing, but when you look at countries like Japan where mobile is the dominant point of internet access, and likewise in India and (for memory) China, the biggest growth in mobile internet will be Asia not Europe. Besides, I’m betting Microsoft pimping Yahoo via Windows might just turn Yahoo’s W. Europe fortunes around :-)

  7. Jean-Marie Le Ray

    And what about a brand new name and logo where merge all Yahoo and Microsoft online brands?
    JML

  8. Yakov

    sure, Yahoo is much stronger brand than MSN

  9. Blowski

    This is the kind of program Microsoft is going to find again and again with the acquisition. The options are:
    1. Get rid of your own brand, thereby losing all marketing money spent to date
    2. Get rid of their brand, despite having just paid a high price for it
    3. Keep both brands, creating internal competition for resources
    4. Destroy both brands, and merge them under a new brand

    This was very much part of Yahoo’s problem - think of the ‘peanut butter’ memo. Will Microsoft make the same mistake? I doubt it, and I can see the Yahoo brand fading over time.

    Easy hits will be the big properties with their own identities. Going from Yahoo Flickr to Microsoft Flickr won’t be much of an issue. Same goes with del.icio.us, Upcoming, etc.

    As for the others, I imagine it will take a long time (perhaps 3 or 4 years) but gradually the Yahoo name and logo will fade, probably to be replaced by Live.

  10. Rodster

    Keeping Yahoo brand alive surely is/was a non-brainer.

  11. Rodster

    Oh yeah, and favoring Asian internet markets over Europe is the dumbest thing I’ve heard all day.

  12. MadMax3000

    That is good the brand name will live on, but it’s also sad to see what Yahoo! become, it is at the mercy of someone now. Life is bitch!

    http://www.givemebeats.com

  13. YDRIVE

    Am sure Microsoft can make it better and will make it better.

  14. 福泉市

    老外也水产~~~呵呵。Yahoo不是问题,关键是,整合后如何整合,比尔后的新官上任三把火?

  15. anon

    The Yahoo brand might live for a while, but it the end, it’ll gradually be phased out. A bit like….

    Hotmail > MSN Hotmail > MSN Live Hotmail > Windows Live Hotmail

    … let me guess…… Windows Live Email

  16. Duncan, Relax...

    As awesome as the reporting on Techcrunch is (seriously), you might be missing an important angle on this story. Microsoft shareholders are not that happy with this deal going through — they’ve already punished the stock to the point that $40 billion in market cap has been erased…

    That’s a pretty strong message that all is not well, and SteveB’s drive to do the deal may be more a danger to him and his board than to Yahoo’s board. Just a thought. ;)

  17. Duncan Riley

    16
    I’ve read those articles and I think we’ve mentioned it previously. I’m not sure though that the dissent is at anywhere near a level that might count yet, but I take your comment on board and we’ll keep watching and listening.

  18. Eros

    I just don’t get it. Why they want to buy a brand, when they already have a same popular brand, MSN ? . It’ll be a disaster for Microsoft and will end up losing $45 billions. It won’t do any good to Microsoft. No one supporting it, not even their shareholders. Here what they can do in order to give google a hard competition;
    1. Since it was a public bid for Yahoo!, now it’ll look stupid if they withdraw it. So call Jerry (Yahoo) to come to Redmond. Do a deal with him, something like; Invest $5/10 Billion in Yahoo!. In return get 5% of Yahoo! Stake and Microsoft will run search engine on Yahoo.com & all of its other sites. Google did similar deal with AOL and now trying to do with Yahoo!, why let them?
    2. Buy some community based startups, in order to boost more users.
    3. Rebrand all Windows Live or Live to MSN. Specially Hotmail, Messenger, Maps (Live Maps is way more great then google maps but no one knows about it because of its branding). they can keep Windows Live OneCare, Windows Live Writer, Windows Live Mail as Windows Live brand, also launch Windows Live Maps/Earth as a desktop program like google earth. MSN is a powerful brand like Yahoo! But they are just killing it. Making useless new new brands and making peoples confuse. They should put all of their online contents, tools, services under MSN.

    4. Put digg search box in MSN.com & Yahoo.com (under that deal) also try to put in facebook.
    5. Add more and more contents in MSN.com like yahoo did. It’s still most powerful brand so take advantage of it.
    6. Give website owners/webmasters web tools, Similar services like google adsense/adword, web analytics, web sitemaps, etc. Let them use you search engine into their site (that’s how google is popular among them, I’m a webmaster, I know). Make it under MSN brands.

    Google or Yahoo! is popular is because what they are doing, doing under their one single brand. Microsoft should do the same with MSN.

  19. Terence

    I don’t think they will ever drop the MSN, Live or Yahoo brands; as many people are so familiar to them that it would be a waste to merge. But I could see them reducing some services and letting them co-exist as either Live, MSN or Yahoo.

    They wouldn’t dump the Yahoo brand because, as mentioned, Steve Ballmer doesn’t want that to happen.

    They wouldn’t dump the Live brand since it holds Hotmail, Messenger and Spaces. From my location, Messenger is pretty popular and they would be upset if they were forced to switch to Yahoo Messenger. They will most likely co-exist with Yahoo’s equivalent service.

    They wouldn’t dump the MSN brand since they have MSNBC and Fox Sports. The MSNBC website wouldn’t be right if it was on Yahoo. Microsoft owns 18% of the television network and 50% of the website.

    As well, you didn’t mention the simple, yet problematic, problem that the merger of Yahoo and MSN would have affected Australia. It would be chaotic. If the MSN brand was to be dropped, ninemsn would be dead. If the Yahoo brand was to be dropped, Yahoo!7 would be dead.

    ninemsn is a 50/50 partnership between PBL Media and Microsoft; while Yahoo!7 is a 50/50 partnership between Yahoo and the Seven Media Group. Seven and Nine (PBL) have been traditionally rivals.

  20. CanCar

    The mobile growth in Europe is appealing, but when you look at countries like Japan where mobile is the dominant point of internet access, and likewise in India and (for memory) China, the biggest growth in mobile internet will be Asia not Europe.

  21. Crispin

    I gotta wonder how this will play out in Canada, where the two biggest ISP’s (Bell/Sympatico and Rogers) currently have JSA’s in place with MSN and Yahoo! respectively (Sympatico’s email service is provided by MS, while Rogers’ is handled by Yahoo). Seems like a major headache in the making.

  22. Mike

    Ballmer thinks of web portals like any other media property, like magazines or newspapers. Given that perspective, he probably thinks there is enough room in the market for an MSN and Yahoo with different audiences just like there is enough room in the market for the NYT and WP with different audiences.

    Given this is MS, I’d expect them to focus more on consolidating the platforms supporting each portal to realize cost efficiencies.

  23. Matt

    YES!! Yahoo will outlive MSN! Justice will be served.

    After seeing that “live” stuff… i’m leaning towards the camp of “this is going to be good f or yahoo, the brand”. Everyone has been speculating, “who will save yahoo” .. the irony is, last friday Steve Balmer offered to do just that. ;)

  24. Gary

    I prefer the Yahoo brand and identity over Microsofts on the web. I welcome this deal; but hope that it doesn’t affect my flickr account - I really enjoy that service in it’s current form.

  25. Listen to Ballmer's words

    What Steve said: “Yahoo, the brand, will live.”

    What Steve didn’t say: “Yahoo, the current operation and corporate structure and marketing and applications and all that, will live.”

    Historically, the MS acquisition playbook involved snuffing out the acquiree’s brand. Most of the time, that’s true — it’s because MS usually has a brand about a billion times more valuable than the acquiree. Not so in this acquisition; Yahoo already has a substantial brand (bigger than MS’s in the web space). So, as Steve put it, “Yahoo, the brand, will live.”

    I think Steve is speaking from a nuts-and-bolts, merger-and-acquisition point of view. To expect that retaining the Yahoo brand equates to retention of all things Yahoo is premature.

  26. Kvan

    Since there keeping the Yahoo brand

    1 Rename it Yahoo MSN Live. Have MSN redirect to new Yahoo Live website Merge all the info on the two sites to the new Yahoo MSN Live site.

    2 for email have something similar to mail.live.com when you login have a drop down list and select hotmail , live , msn or yahoo.com’s

    3 Rename everything Live whatever, with Yahoo being renamed Yahoo MSN Live Then Yahoo Live then Live later on so it wont appear that different then over maybe a year or two slowly transfer the names to Live, Yahoo, Windows Live or whatever they choose.

    4 Leave Digg and Flikr alone or just a name change and keep everything else the same Digg Live, Flikr Live etc.

    5 Incorporate all Yahoo, MSN & Live features into One entity.

  27. Rental Source

    I’d replace MSN & Live with the Yahoo brand & products as well as using the Yahoo Mail interface for Hotmail accounts.

  28. techcrunchreader

    @14 福泉市

    新年快乐.

    呵呵呵

    :)

  29. seamus

    Yahoo! : MSN :: Toyota : Isuzu.

    MSN is a weak brand, and maybe half the $45B was for the Yahoo brand. Messing with the brand is essentially throwing $20B away. But the “brand” is more than just the name; it’s the core of the product. It’s the willingness to point outwards; it’s the integration of the company’s properties; it’s the trust with the gigantic user base.

    MSFT rebranding Yahoo would be like Ford rebranding Jaguar, or Coca Cola rebranding Minute Maid.

  30. Nina Hartley

    The YAHOO domain alone is worth 3x

  31. BinaryDay

    In all this discussion, we seem to miss one of the most important assets of yahoo. That asset is some of the best brains that work for yahoo. These are the people who have built all these great products. Any attempt to phase out yahoo will mean that many of them will leave. So I see brand yahoo staying alive for quite some time to come.

  32. rubu

    Rename everything Live whatever, with Yahoo being renamed Yahoo MSN Live Then Yahoo Live then Live later on so it wont appear that different then over maybe a year or two slowly transfer the names to Live, Yahoo, Windows Live or whatever they choose.

  33. Billy

    MSN is awful, awful, awful. The only way people end up using it is because it is the default homepage on the default browser on their newly-purchased computer. Good riddance to it.

  34. Scott

    My only question is, what happens to Open Source friendly aspects of Yahoo! ?

    Yahoo! runs on FreeBSD and provides gratis Internet connectivy for FreeBSD.org

    Nevertheless I’m glad to hear that it is Yahoo! that will live on. Both Yahoo! and MSN have good offereings, but Yahoo! offerings are superior.

    As long as Yahoo! doesn’t lose what it already has I suppose I could live with all this.

    I’m still not happy about it, but I do realize that it may end up being the only way Yahoo! will stay alive.

  35. msnhoo.com

    of cause Msnhoo.com

  36. Me

    This is a pretty obvious decision, but what people are saying about Europe’s internet market being stronger than Asia’s is rediculous.
    Just because there are some pretty good European startups means NOTHING. The number of internet users in Asia (let alone the number of people :)) is growing rapidly; much faster than in Europe.

  37. fitnessanywhere.com

    Don’t forget that MSN is ubiquitous in China: almost everyone uses MSN messenger and hotmail, not so with Yahoo. I can’t see MSN being dropped. In fact, Live.com has always been a confusing brand, and they can’t even fix an affiliate network log in bug. For the short term (like 1 to 2 years), I think none will be dropped. In the long term, live.com is more likely to be dropped.