January 7, 2008

Yahoo Is Clearly Up To Something Big Around Music

Michael Arrington

39 comments »

There have been rumors that Yahoo Music is preparing to launch a big new product sometime soon. And when I read this overview of a presentation given by Yahoo Music’s VP of Product Development Ian Rogers last month it basically confirmed it for me: expect something new and interesting from Yahoo Music in the near future.

Some background: Rogers, along with former Yahoo music GM David Goldberg, was one of the first music industry insiders to actively call for the dismantling of the DRM machine (I interviewed both early last year).

Rogers also made an impassioned speech last October calling for sanity in the music industry. “Inconvenience doesn’t scale,” he said. And - suing Napster for popularizing music sharing was “like throwing Newton in jail for popularizing the concept of gravity.” He ended that talk by saying he wouldn’t let Yahoo spend any more money on flawed music models. He specifically called all-you-can-eat subscription models flawed; and Yahoo is a big provider of that service already.

He went even further in his most recent talk. The first part was a rehashing of previous presentations where he said “we’ve been trying to apply our physical world models to the digital space and then wondering why they don’t work. It’s like trying to live a normal life on the moon without adjusting to the changes in oxygen and gravity.” In one slide he suggests iTunes is nothing more than the application of old business models (represented by spreadsheets) and ownership over music content, resulting in an uninspiring product. People don’t want to just listen to what the record labels say they should listen to. They want to consume the content that people they trust recommend to them.

But he went further this time, saying “We’re in the process of redefining what Yahoo! Music is, and making it the Music destination in Yahoo!’s successful image.” He also says Yahoo isn’t a music retailer and suggests they won’t be in the future.

So what are they up to? He is championing the merger of content (which is what the labels control) with context (all the great user generated content around the passion of music - Last.fm popular songs, MySpace content, blog posts around new music, etc. This is a well of useful contextual information that helps people decide what they want to consume. He calls for the evolution of open standards to facilitate this goal - making media “a first-class object in HTML,” agreeing on ways to describe collections of media objects (playlists), standards for sharing user data, and defining services (search, resolution of media between services, and purchase or provisioning).

It’s clear that Yahoo wants to move in this direction. Their music site consists of great content but, other than the doomed subscription service, lacks any retail features. It’s unlikely Yahoo wants to get into the music sales game. Not only did Rogers say as much in the presentation, but it’s a very low margin business. Instead, and this is just an educated guess, it looks like Yahoo wants to spearhead an effort to create open standards around music buying, playing, managing and sharing. If that wasn’t the direction they were going, the presentation makes little sense.

In one set of slides near the end of the presentation, he shows a use case where a user discovers music on Yahoo, links to purchase it at Amazon, and then manages it again back at Yahoo. My guess is this is exactly what Yahoo will be. They’ll abandon their subscription music service (Rogers previously said the model was deeply flawed and has failed to get many users) and promote third party music download sites like Amazon instead. But I also imagine they’ll do this via a set of open standards where any service can participate. Yahoo is the worlds largest music site, so they can afford to be inclusive. It’s likely they’ll manage to keep their fair share of the users, even in an open world.

Half of me hopes that Yahoo pulls the plug on the project before it launches. What I’d really like to see is Rogers leave Yahoo and create a new startup based on the principles he believes in, without any compromise. Now that could be something interesting.

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  1. myplaylist

    This is an interesting concept but yahoo have the tools but lack the wildness of apple to really be creative and less corporate. Since they closed Webjay, nothing has emerged from them in that direction and now they are probably going to be playing catch up for some time as others have moved swiftly into the playlist space.

    Projectplaylist for example 7 million hits a day, top that for a drupal cms and a mp3 search engine with a bit of flash thrown in for good measure. plus it’s a one man band. pardon the pun.

  2. Cory von Wallenstein

    I honestly don’t expect too much impact on the market from Yahoo! reinventing their existing flawed model. I would expect it to have the same fizzle as their other recent “reinventions”.

  3. David Gratton

    Mike,

    You need to read what I an is saying. Yahoo is NOT Building this future on their own. They are encouraging other start-ups and established media companies to embrace this future. Yahoo is working with other companies who hold the same ideals.

    The advantage of having Yahoo! support this initiative from a high level is that it encourages a diverse eco-system of ideas and technologies to propagate. If he started out as a one-man-band (his own start-up) he would be in the position of needing the support of a company like Yahoo to support the idea.

    You are right we need people like Ian, but we need them high up with a prominent voice in industry - not slugging it out as a start-up.

  4. myplaylist

    #2 Cory,

    Ref your rant on your blog about API’s, It is absoultly great that major players are opening up their platforms and allowing us devs to create layers they could not perceive, but these issues could be addressed. Namely that in many instances you won’t even get a link out of them to your app for your efforts, and when linking is so important this would be a major step forward (cough cough flickr), also I would say they need to do that test were a developer (not one of theirs) sits down and trys their api while they watch to see what and how they get stuck / thus improve.

  5. Mario Hemsley

    OK, we have absolutely been waiting for, and expecting this. Pax Stereo Tv (www.paxstereo.tv) represents exactly what Rogers is talking about. We built it solidly upon principles like “context”, and we built it openly without trying to serve many masters. Our only concern has been, and will be, presenting the most entertaining and dynamic environment to enjoy the micro-niche world that is indie music video. We are fluid, and incorporate the latest widgets within hours to days (thanks to speedy info from M. Arrington). We are the only ones gutsy enough to build like gangbusters without knowing how we will be getting paid. We don’t care! Now with the new open standards, watch what we do!

  6. groovy

    Moving away from subscription music shouldn’t be any surprise — Yahoo CEO Jerry Yang said in the company’s Q3 earnings call last October that “we have de-emphasized our focus around subscription music in favor of advertising supported music.”

    http://www.seekingalpha.com/ar.....transcript

  7. stone

    Yahoo is a troubled company. It’s hard for me to see anything they do as innovative because I’m constantly thinking about how terrible they’ve performed vs. Google in Search and many smaller players in advertising.

    Also, for those of us that know employees there, the morale is so low that it’s almost hard to look past. People strongly dislike working there — that’s a fact.

  8. Kludge

    I guess Ian loves to use analogies. But, one can only hear so many analogies before you start to get queasy.

    While it’s certainly interesting, I’m not entirely convinced that anyone will actually care about a Yahoo-sponsored open standard.

    At the end of the day it all comes down to the UI. If the user interface isn’t dead easy (i.e. iTunes/iPod), no one will use any product, regardless of which company builds it or touts it.

  9. Amit Chowdhry

    what would be cool but is one of those “out there” ideas is if yahoo introduced hardware similar to xm and sirius radio but still complement the star rating and recommendation features.

  10. Chingler

    I don’t think we will see much of subscription music sites in the future.
    And just like “stone” said, Yahoo is a troubled company, and i don’t think people will use their service just because they are Yahoo.

    Just had a look at a brand new music site published here in the forum.
    You can access all the music you buy/add and stream it online from your personal music library as well as download it. It’s sort of a combination between iTunes and MySpace. The UI is looking good but no content to speak of yet.

    http://www.museeker.com

  11. Jordan Garbis

    It sounds to me like Ian is talking about creating a platform ala Facebook and Open Social but specifically focused around music content and commerce. There are already deep sources of metadata outside of Yahoo (Musicbrainz, and Tourfilter for example) that if referenced properly, could connect music, tour dates, retail, and news in a way that we haven’t yet seen from the siloed music destinations.

  12. banks in hawaii

    Yahoo being up to something big is news? They’ve been telling us this for 3 years now.

  13. Nick

    Ian Rogers and Lucas Gonze are two really smart guys. They are helping to push efforts like XSPF and are having conversations with a lot of smart people like Chris Messina, and Brian Oberkirch about open standards, and finding ways to leverage existing formats and not re-invent. I have no doubt that what they do will have an impact on the online music for years. I am fairly confident that Ian’s influence in Yahoo is increasing and that they will stay out of his way.

  14. Jon Bischke

    I credit Ian for helping me to shift my thinking towards DRM a couple of years ago. He’s been pushing for this for a long time and I think the main reason is that he’s simply incredibly passionate about music and wants distribution channels that will benefit fans and artists. The music world needs more people like Ian and I’m very excited to see what’s brewing.

  15. Bruce Warila

    “Doomed subscription service…” Can’t say I agree with that statement. Subscribing to a service where you have to pay subscription fees to hunt, peck and organize – yeah that’s doomed. But paying a subscription fee to conveniently tap into a stream of music (supplied by Yahoo – anywhere, anytime, anyplace) that’s driven by the tagging and recommending capabilities of 20,000,000 Yahoo Music users + enhancements from some machine-based recommendation engine(s), and you have yourself something that’s “not doomed” but compelling.

    The interesting slide for me – as someone that advises artists – was the slide that compares Blockbusters (investing in marketing yields diminishing returns) to Snowballs (quality is hyper-efficient). The system I just described above is the biggest collaborative funnel in the world. It’s also a funnel where quality becomes the gravity that pulls music through the funnel.

    My take on Ian’s presentation: Yahoo is building the Yahoo Open Music Operating System (YOMOS) and everyone is going to be able to participate. Those that want to tag and recommend – go for it (ad model); those that want to just tap into a relevant stream of music – here it is (subscription model – powered by reccomenders, taggers & software); those that want to own – here’s some links (Amazon, iTunes, etc); and oh by the way, we’re collecting and analyzing all of this data so – the good stuff can rise to the top and the crap can fall out of the system.

    So, maybe I’m giving Yahoo too much credit? But, I love this vision. Artists can stop worrying about knobbing the A&R guy and go back to making The Dark Side Of The Moon. It’s visions like Ian’s that are going to make music quality relevant again. If it were me, I would stick with Yahoo – “he that owns (knows how to use) the most data wins…”.

  16. srini

    please not another social network, PLEASE !!!

  17. Steven

    I’m clearly in a minority (longtime user of subscription services). But for me, the fundamental goal of all services is simple: we should be able to listen to any song ever recorded, wherever and whenever we want. It’s a goal that can’t ever be reached, to be sure, but it’s a worthwhile goal nonetheless. One I am willing to pay for, which is why I subscribe to music services that give me access to enormous catalogs. The current solutions are far from perfect, and I welcome any move, by Yahoo or whoever, that improves upon current models. But the goal should remain the same: all music, all places, all times.

  18. Adam Wexler

    I laughed when I read Ian Rogers called for sanity in the music industry, but I fully commend him for it.

    I agree with “all music, all places, all times”, but just like the power of major record labels, subscription services are also a thing of the past. As a parallel indication, the last of the major online newsources, The Wall Street Journal, will even be shifting gears in the very near future to join the others as advertisement-based.

    I think Yahoo creating a MUSIC platform, considering as Mike said they are “the world’s largest music site”, would be phenomenal! Along with 2 others, I have been developing my own social network music website centered around providing the ultimate resource or furthering music discovery, and attaching ourselves with Yahoo (if they provide a platform) could well be an option down the road.

    Sounds like Rogers is heading in the right direction. Very interested to hear what’s in store..

  19. headcoach

    trust is the main thing and a big hurdle to leap. Yahoo! is a big company, with a big bank account and a big reputation for trying to be all things to all people snd that does not exactly working in their favor.

    besides, all things being equal (as it is becoming with the the crumbling of the Great Wall of DRM), leadership makes the difference. my best wishes Ian.

  20. George

    Wonder if this somehow ties into what RLord and crew are doing over at Songbird? Ian and Rob have a long history of successful collaborations - wouldn’t be surprised to see another.

  21. teddy

    Are we forgetting that the majority of people are not buying music? Linking to Amazon is not a business model that scales. The music business is dominated by peer to peer platforms that continue to grow, and will begin to provide a more efficient vehicle for not only music, but the proliferation of music related video content. Music is to a great degree free now, but certainly in the near future music will provide a promotional platform for artists to sell ancillary products and tickets. Yahoo is not in a position to compete with this, and does not have the back end to accommodate this market. I agree with a previous post, Ian should leave Yahoo and do his own gig.

  22. Paul

    A product that satisfies the desires expressed in comments #15 and #17 would really be something. And if Yahoo! somehow brought a good team together for this they could do a great job.

    Unfortunately, great jobs and Yahoo! don’t go together these days. Yahoo!’s initial music service client app was a disaster (spawning new screens ad infinitum until CTRL-ALT-DEL stopped it), and their online payment system has been badly managed as well.

    If their products weren’t bad enough, their marketing (especially PR) teams have performed as if they are embarrassed for the products and are actually trying to hide them.

    Come to think of it, Yahoo! and MSFT vs Google has begun to appear like a cheesy horror film, where Yahoo! and MSFT are the two dumb teens doing Darwin Award-worthy stupid stuff while Google chases them around. To push it too far, Yahoo! is the cute girl, since we in the audience are willing to root against MSFT.

    No more caffeine this morning….

  23. David Fox

    I sure hope it sucks less than the present ‘integrated’ Sansa Connect service. Great in theory but software is a processor hog and buggy, and the DRM is a huge pain (haven’t logged on for a couple of weeks…ooops…no license to listen…). iPod/iTunes has issues but its waaaay out in front in usability.
    Pandora http://www.pandora.com added classical selections recently making it the first tab I open in Firefox every day. Maybe Yahoo needs to talk to ‘em.

  24. Mike D.

    #7 Stone - I don’t know who you know, but I have been working at Y! Music for more than 2 years, and I love it, as does everyone on my team. I couldn’t imagine a much better place to work, and Ian is a fantastic person to have at the helm. We all have a lot of faith in him. That’s a fact.

  25. mmt

    free is an admission by yahoo that it failed to innovate. the world can only support so many free products. free is an option when you don’t have the ability to create something people want to pay for. i applaud apple for this. they understand that by creating great products they can get people to pay, and pay a premium.

    if music goes free what ancillary products are artists going to advertise? cars? they might be advertising supported soon.

    once a downturn in the ad market comes (and it will come) many of these free products will disappear.

  26. acne cream

    another Yahoo flop about to happen…

  27. being responsible

    For a Yahoo short, this is like music to my ears :)

  28. Cyrano

    Unfortunately, I am a huge fan of my all-you-can-eat subscription based service (Yahoo Music Unlimited).

    I hope it doesn’t tank.

  29. best term life insurance company

    When all else fails, try some music…

  30. Don Jones

    There’s not much here…yet…to comment on…

  31. david hyman

    let’s all hold hands and join forces with yahoo. yeeehaw.

  32. William

    I’m gonna second what Mike D. said… morale is not bad here. We love working for Yahoo!, specifically because there are people like Ian and many others who inspire us everyday. We’re excited about the direction the company is moving in and proud to be working for the most popular website in the world. Is Google championing the Open Media Web? I must’ve missed them at the last Songbird meetup…

  33. Miles

    With all sweeping statements there will be those who agree and those who do not but let’s look at the evidence: Yahoo! is a huge company that has grown from grassroots to internet super tanker in 13 years. It is now so big it’s simply not agile enough to innovate and in reality all employees know this. Invariably now it buys to innovate (witness Flickr, JumpCut, Right Media etc). Its global footprint is one of the reasons why it’s music channel is the largest - it’s that way by default (in the same way as AOL’s music channel is second worldwide). Is size the only metric? Just ask the Yahoo! employee above how long users actually spend in the channel. Yahoo! is a master at channelling us/users/internet traffic around the myriad of sites it owns and operates - so it can ‘own’ content areas. At the end of the day it sets out to be first or second in every market in terms of volume of users. If these users only spend one minute in channel: So what? That’s an impression to sell. And ad monies are the lifeblood to the exec board as they effectively report to Wall Street every three months (even more so at present with the share price at historic lows). I really hope Mr Yang has the gravitas to pull the company out of this financial reporting straightjacket because it does have some visionaries still in residence but eventually if Wall Street controls visionaries go elsewhere (and invariably in the digital space, start up).

  34. kP

    Suggested Yahoo actions if they decide to go this direction:

    1) create a cross reference of content across sources - allowing people to find a given cut of a song across the provider of their choice - Smells Like Teen Spirit on Amazon, versus from Rhapsody, versus some other channel. The point being, if someone wants to find a given cut, they want it from where they are familiar. This will allow the sharing of playlists without the inclusion of actual content. This will also dovetail into semantic web behaviors, comparison shopping, etc.

    2) Allow JamGlue style remixes to be created from already legally licensed content. Because the music is legally licensed, the reuse of it, i.e., the listening of it in a new or different way, is allowed, and so, if a listener has legally licensed all of the components of a remix, then the user should be allowed to render that remix for their listening pleasure.

    To get a good idea of how powerful these remixes are, take a listen to the Bootie “best of” albums, available here for 2005, 6 & 7: http://www.bootieusa.com/bestofbootie2007/

    3) Just as 2 (above) allowed for the legal combination of new compositions from existing material, a listener should be allowed to decompose a purchased song into a ring tone.

  35. sudara

    “iTunes is nothing more than the application of old business models ”

    iTunes fills the transition, but is an ‘old-world’ product. Charging for something on a per-item basis on works with physical items and scarcity. Can’t charge for dirt, now can you? Ok, maybe high quality dirt. But virtual dirt?

    What is a new world product?

    http://alonetone.com

    Shameless plug (I built this), but it is true. No money, no ads. Just music. Where is the business model? What business model? There’s no money in selling online music! Get over it. Lets say its a ‘finally musicians can run their own show’ model or ‘normal everyday musicians from the last 40 years were shafted by industry’ model or ‘we are liberated and not so interested in getting jailed by some techies scheme of using us’ model.

    ;)