January 1, 2008

Zed Shaw Puts The Smack Down On The Rails Community

Michael Arrington

136 comments »

Wow, you don’t see rants like this every day. Zed Shaw, who created Mongrel, a library and web server that just about everyone uses to serve rails applications, is basically a God in the Rails community. In a post today called “Rails Is A Ghetto” he tears into a number of leading Rails developers, the community in general, and a number of startups (and Google).

The post is long but highly entertaining, even to those of us outside of the core community. Basically, Zed just started a shitstorm that is going to reverberate through that community for months.

Most entertaining quote: “This is exactly what makes Rails a ghetto. A bunch of half-trained former PHP morons who never bother to sit down and really learn the computer science they were too good to study in college.”

And: “After Mongrel I couldn’t get a gang of monkeys to rape me, so forget any jobs. Sure people would contact me for their tiny little start-ups, but I’d eventually catch on that they just want to use me to implement their ideas. Their ideas were horrendously lame. I swear if someone says they’re starting a social network I’m gonna beat them with the heal of my shoe.”

And: “Then there’s the social network idiots. They all have a social network plus something fucking stupid to sell, but of course no MBA can actually code so they come running to me. However, there’s a slight problem. You see, I have a business degree you cock suckers. If you tell me that your social network will take on facebook because it includes baby pictures then I’m going to laugh in your face. They are an established player with CIA backing. You won’t wipe them out.

Google was a total riot. They offered me a job twice. I went with it, and they never responded. Probably because the job they were offering me—someone who’s been coding for 21 years, 15 professionally—was as a junior system administrator. What the hell does a junior sysadmin do at google? That’s probably like mopping the floor at a glory hole in Queens. I told them to review my resume and offer me a real position.”

And (last one): “With Rails I get scrawny cock suckers with carpal tunnel syndrome talking to me like they’re gonna eat my young. Their feeble PHP infected minds can’t grasp advanced shit like objects or closures. When you combine stupid businesses with stupid people using a stupid framework based on a big fat fucking lie on a shitty platform you get the perfect storm of dumbfuck where a man like me can’t find work.”

Photo credit: James Cox.

  • Sphere It

Trackbacks/Pings (Trackback URL)

  1. Inchoate Curmudgeon
  2. FernyB
  3. Zed Shaw Puts The Smack Down On The Rails Community : Selfkleptomaniac
  4. Twitter Said To Be Abandoning Ruby on Rails
  5. Twitter Said To Be Abandoning Ruby on Rails « Tecno Week

Comments

RSS feed for comments on this post.

  1. damon

    he will regret this one day, rants like this are best typed in and then never sent (posted)

  2. damon

    you made me re-read this, and there are some great one liners “perfect storm of dumbfuck”

  3. Michael Arrington

    I dunno. this is the kind of guy a lot of people would want on their team. And Mongrel is, from what I hear, a pretty kick ass piece of software.

  4. Michael Arrington

    damon - yes. and he enjoys the word “cocksucker.”

  5. damon

    yes, mongrel is great, but reading this, one would think ruby and rails both suck, which is certainly not the case

  6. D

    Mike, I liked your quote “Zed just started a shitstorm” lol

  7. ted

    @Damon,

    He won’t regret this. I applaud him for being truly honest. Some people might think that he won’t get any job offers in the future due to this article. I’d have to agree with that opinion. But if you look closely, he’s fed-up with stupid job offers anyway.

    The smart companies (let’s count Google out ONE TIME only) would want him on their teams because they know he’s onto something. I’m sure there are many smart managers (that have MSc/PhD in Comp Sci) who are tired dealing with cowboy-type developers (those who don’t have formal education in CS) would want to hire him (if he chooses to stay in the IT industry). And I’m sure he would be glad to work with them.

    His rant could swing either way, we don’t know yet. He might have more job offers by dissing Rails. Rails community had burned their bridges too with PHP/Python/Java/.NET communities.

  8. Jaffer

    From Wikipedia:
    “Mongrel” is a derogatory epithet in Australia. It is generally used to refer to an ill-bred man, a man of poor manners or morals.

    I have no clue what ruby (on rails) is but this post was entertaining !

  9. Daniel Swiecki

    He makes good points, and assuming what he says is true, I absolutely agree with him. He has every right to be angry. He has contributed so much to the community and has gotten very little back.

  10. ChandraB

    Obviously Zed has a lot vested in Rails….and what I thought was interesting was that he was abandoning Rails for Python and some other functional languages.

    I also find it amusing that an obviously smart guy interviews at Google and only gets a Jr. Admin position. WTF?

  11. EH

    History tells us that this rant will go mostly into the vacuum. People have been railing against PHP for years and years, but still places like EA use it for nearly all of their online code. Zed may be desperate for RoR not to go down the PHP road, instead becoming (possibly?) something between java and perl, but while he will probably retain serious acolyte love there’s really not a whole lot he can do about the direction Rails nerds take the language.

  12. EH

    I bet the Jr Admin thing at Google was just Google testing his humility.

  13. dopenkly

    Whoa…

    I surely wouldn’t hire him… not even to code for my shitty startup.

  14. Robby Russell

    Zed has been a great contributor to the Ruby on Rails community. He will be missed by many of us.

  15. damon

    You can be truly honest without acting like a baby. Everyone knows the smartest people are the most difficult to manage, they tend to be aggressive, opinionated, impatient, etc. But this is just an example of being a whining baby with little constructive content. Actually no constructive content unless someone can point it out.

  16. Simon

    Hey Zed, If you’re reading this, would you be interested in co-founding my startup ‘YouBaby.com’? Its a revolutionary twist of social network for pregnant chics! It’s just me right now, but I have the BIGGEST bag of ideas around! I’ll give you 3% of the company and 5% if you build the thing in under a month. You in?

  17. Darren

    best read of the year so far. One of the best people to trash rails because hes got great cred. Could this be the start of the end of the rails cult…

  18. Aaronontheweb

    “The post is long but highly entertaining, even to those of us outside of the core community. ”

    Does this translate into “none of us TechCrunch writers know how to program?”

  19. Michael Arrington

    aaronontheweb - no, it means our rails guys are all on vacation. We’re actually building a rails app right now and have two full time guys doing it. And the Crunchies and Tech President sites linked in the nav bar are simple rails apps. We have some in house knowledge, they just aren’t sober and awake this New Year’s morning.

  20. Justin

    This is a sophomoric, arrogant tantrum. Why is this news and why do some of you enjoy reading this?

  21. August Lilleaas

    He’s complaining about the technical stuff in Rails, which doesn’t really matter to rails peeps, as Rails is all about pretty code, not all that other stuff. Zed’s post is mostly just FUD. It sucks that he doesn’t get cred for his amazing work, but imo that’s just because the rails flock isn’t technical enough to understand how awesome mongrel is.

  22. DavidEzra

    Although I don’t have any knowledge concerning “rails” … and therefore I have no opinion either good or bad … I do admire Zed’s honesty and bluntness!

    Whether right or wrong, I’d rather know exactly where someone stands … rather then having to deal with a chameleon.

  23. somebody

    @Jaffer: lol, you might want to see Mongrel (disambiguation)

  24. damon

    Zed gets plenty of credit for Mongrel, everyone knows he wrote it and everyone loves it, that’s credit in the open source world.

    Why does every think that calling strangers butt buddies is being “brutally honest”.

  25. James

    Zed is a great coder, but he can be abrasive to work with and unfortunately rubs people the wrong way sometimes. In any community this can make it very hard for you to get your ideas across, even when they are right - nobody wants to work with a dick. It sucks that he has run into sketchy companies that don’t pay, or community members that he doesn’t get along with, but eh, no shit, he will find these companies and these type of people everywhere.

    Probably the only piece of interesting information in that rant is the 400 restarts a day quote from DHH, which has so little context as to be completely useless. Is this a particular issue with that app? I’ve run several high volume Rails apps and have yet to see issues like that.

    I feel bad for Zed with this rant, he airs out his personal issues here in a pretty immature way.

  26. Marzipan From Toledo

    Hilarious

    We had a guy working for us once. Was literally a networking genius. Then he was let go. It turned out his mouth was bigger than his brain.

  27. John Minnihan

    I got tipped to this rant on twitter and had already read it when I saw your post here. As I said earlier (on twitter), “…Bitterness of the tone aside, are his points valid / verifiable? Dunno… yet”.

    The point he makes about performance & stability is probably the most important. Again, gotta read around the angry style, but R (and RoR) is pretty damn flaky WRT performance & stability. I wrote a little about this back in November, and will simply quote myself here in reference to all the downtime at Twitter (p.s. I like Twitter):

    “I think Ruby’s edges (or core maybe) are showing here. This has been discussed at length at Laughing Meme, but I haven’t seen much about this subject on Twitter’s blog. Lots of folks are using Ruby daily, with many of them adopting Rails, and all of them have a stake in its future.

    Performance is a tough characteristic to engineer into a language (or even a project) after the fact. Is Ruby/Rails going to be able to pull this off, or will it remain “…dead slow” to the point of no longer being considered for scalable web development?”

    Again, dunno.

  28. damon

    Backpeddling has begun, Zed mentions on his blog that he will also write a “rant” praising good (in his opinion) ruby contributers. We know from his other rant that he is an excellent person to be passing judgement.

    “I’ll be finishing off the Rant tomorrow for anyone that’s interested, and will also do a few follow-ups. Most importantly I want to do another rant that points out the heroes of the Ruby community so that they get credit. There are some incredibly good creative programmers in the Ruby world but the mass of mundane idiots and blow hards drowns them out like wet rats.”

  29. Adam Benayoun

    From the “about me” page:

    “If you haven’t noticed, I’m funny and enjoy having fun. Enjoy my site, tell me if you use my projects. Don’t take it too seriously though, it’s all an act.”

  30. Morgan

    Nothing to admire in this, regardless of his ‘cred’. If he’s so brilliant, and he’s got his business degree, and the job offers he gets aren’t what he thinks he deserves, he might try looking in the mirror. Maybe, just maybe, he’s the dumbass, and he wasted a ton of time on a piece of software in a community that got him jack squat in terms of continuing opportunity. Totally, 100%, completely his own fault and lack of foresight or knowledge or ability.

    In addition, he’s totally imprisoned to the idea of someone giving him a job, but he thinks their ideas are crap. The guy doesn’t have the stones to start a commercial project himself, but everyone else is an idiot– yeah, gotcha Zed. You’re a misunderstood genius and the world owes you a collective blow.

    One part of this I did like is that it puts the lie to the idea that the joy of open-source is the work. This guy is seriously bitter that the endless hours he spent have so far not brought him the rich rewards he obviously expects and believes he deserves.

    Zed Shaw didn’t put any smack on anyone but himself, dead-center on his loaded diaper.

  31. Robert Dempsey

    With mongrel, Zed contributed a huge amount to the Rails community, and from the sounds of it, more that I am even aware of. It is sad to see that people, in more than a few instance, attempted to take advantage of him. Those types of people are definitely out there and we have to watch out for them. As a (long ago) previous practitioner of both vb.net and php, I don’t see Rails going in that direction. Having said that, with any programming language, especially those with a low barrier to entry like Rails, there will always be people touting that they are highly skilled professionals with nothing to back it up. Hopefully there will be less of those types so that those of us that understand that Rails will only get you 80% (or less) of the way to a serious application, and that you *really need* to know Ruby and good OO software design, won’t be spoiled due to the bad apples.

    Good luck to Zed in the new year.

  32. D

    Hahaha… that was awesome. Thanks Zed !

  33. Rubyfu

    There’s something I don’t understand… Why are you people enjoying this post ????? Since Zed is so good at programming… Why doesn’t he just start his own thing ????? Second, if Google says No… that means no… The facts are, Ruby on Rails is well established and just released it’s last version : rails 2.0.2.
    We all know the reputation of Google concerning its hires.

    Anyways… Good luck with Perl Zed….

    PS: will we see you at RubyConf2008 ???lol

  34. chrisco

    Holy shit, that is smoken’

  35. John

    I love PHP. Why does everyone (including Zed) think PHP is so bad?

  36. Aaronontheweb

    Mike,

    No, what I mean is do any of you WRITERS, i.e. the content-producing wing of TC, produce any code?

  37. AlexH

    Zed has nailed it. One applauds the enthusiasm of those discovering the limits of their talents in coding. Usually, that means they are coding up a shit storm. Rarely does it mean they are ‘coding up’ a successful company. Jumping to the successful business isn’t always what one does. You can code without design, you can design with a plan, and you can plan without business concept, you can conceptualize a business without experience. If you want to succeed ($$) do some that is based on the public’s general laziness (and not yours). The wider the def of ‘public’ is, the more money you make. Facebook makes it easy (lazy) to meet people. What is ‘ease of use’? Its *hard* to make it easy. Nice Zed! Nice pick Techcrunch!

  38. td00174

    Haha…great way to start off the year. Fresh start…all getting along! …or not. hahahahaha

  39. hahahaha

    but we don’t want to hire PHDs to academic, all that computer science, don’t bring me resumes with PHDs

    then there is, I am a PHD everyone will want t work for me

  40. plop

    Aaronontheweb the writers spout claptrap not code…

  41. Doc

    Zed. You should see a doctor about BPD, seriously. So let me get this you have a business degree, almost a CS degree, and you could probably kick Chuck Norris’s arse but yet you haven’t created your own startup and you still can’t find work?

    I might as well throw in the towel now.

    One word….. “Mirror”

  42. ATV

    Zed. Kudos on speaking it like it is (from your viewpoint). My first reaction to reading this however was to say tongue in cheek “what’s a rail?” because I KNOW that something like 80% of the people reading the rant will do just that. Instead I’ll say this.

    Don’t rip off your arm to slap someone with the soggy end, we need that arm to keep on coding and to bring down that 80%… it’s just too high. Good luck.

  43. Martin

    What a great start on the new year! Whats really going to bake your noodles is that the very same Zed Shaw is in the top, even before DHH, in the popularity list on working with rails: http://www.workingwithrails.co.....lar/people

    Whats also interesting is this interview with Adrian H (creator of django) from a rails developer: http://www.akitaonrails.com/20.....-holovaty/

    They talk a little about flaming and trolling…..

    “At the end of the day, what really matters is the sites people create with these tools, not the tools themselves. If you’re going to judge someone, judge the sites that person makes, instead of the tools that person uses.”

    More of that please!

  44. doc

    since he is so smart and all, how is he so unsuccessful… and why is this on Techcrunch?

  45. Jeremy

    “Here’s a bit of background on me: My education is in business. I have a BS in MIS and almost finished my MS but ran out of money. I’ve got more business education than most of the MBAs out there, and I have a nearly formal education in software development, modeling, statistical analysis, and sociology. I’ve done it all, but what does the slick talking shit head car sales MBA loser think I am?”

    Zed hit a home-run with Mongrel — anyone can get lucky. Beyond that, what has he done? Can’t manage his life well enough to finish his degree (”ran out of money” == poor planning, poor execution, poor follow-through). Can’t manage his business affairs well enough to make a living (please pay me quick I have to pay rent…). So much for his expertise in business.

    As with any community of people, the Rails community has it’s share of idiots on both extremes — thanks, Zed, for illustrating.

  46. Mono Ape

    He’s a people person, then?

    I love the smell of napalmed bridges in the morning ….

  47. caveman

    he sounds bitter.

  48. John

    I think he hits home a point that frustrates me to no end. The only people companies are looking for are people that are so grossly overqualified that taking the job would be an insult or an indication that they are lying on their resume.

  49. Try smoking pot

    It helps!

  50. Jesse

    QOTD - “I’ll never be afraid of some pilsner fresh fat fuck who eats donut hamburgers and only gets exercise when he plays World of Warcraft on a DDR pad.”

  51. Nikolay Kolev

    Honestly, I like Rails, but Rails community truly sucks. It’s full of dead and unmaintained projects such as Active Merchant, Typo, Mephisto, and a bunch of others. RubyGems is getting released without basic testing on major platforms like Windows and so on. A change is definitely necessary!

  52. nemrut

    @15, “Everyone knows the smartest people are the most difficult to manage, they tend to be aggressive, opinionated, impatient, etc.”

    No, the smartest ones know that it takes good communication skills along with proficiency to get anything done. Those that you’re describing are typically immature people with oversized egos and a lot of attitude. It’s called entitlement, which in large part, created the bubble pre ‘00.

  53. Floyd Price

    I would hire Zed in a flash, he is an immensely talented guy who as been taken advantage of, far to many times.

    He may regret this one day (although i doubt it) but you have to admire him for taking that risk.

  54. Adrian

    If he took the job at Google he’d be around smart people.

  55. Boilermaker

    Most places want Java and/or PHP experience. As popular as Ruby & Ruby on Rails are to people in the “know,” they’re still relatively unpopular. Ruby is less esoteric than Lisp & ML, but not very much…so a Rubyist should expect about as much success finding an amenable job position as a hardcore Lisper/MLer

  56. Alexander Muse

    His post is the sort one should save in draft form before publishing. What a nightmare for his reputation, career and sanity. I suspect an FBI profiler reading this post blind might well assume this guy is a homicidal His post is the sort one should save in draft form before publishing. What a nightmare for his reputation, career and sanity. I suspect an FBI profiler reading this post blind might well assume this guy is a homicidal maniac. You missed the part of his post where he suggests:

    “I mean business when I say I’ll take anyone on who wants to fight me. You think you can take me, I’ll pay to rent a boxing ring and beat your fucking ass legally. Remember that I’ve studied enough martial arts to be deadly even though I’m old, and I don’t give a fuck if I kick your mother fucking ass or you kick mine. You don’t like what I’ve said, then write something in reply but fuck you if you think you’re gonna talk to me like you can hurt me.”

    Why is it that he gets screwed over so much? Maybe it isn’t everyone else, maybe it is him. You know what they say, “if everyone else seems crazy, maybe it isn’t them, maybe it is you. I am not kidding when I suggest that Prozac might be a good daily supplement for Zed ~ I suspect he would have fewer problems with employers and/or the Rails community. At the end of the day Zed has made huge contributions to the community, I just hope this little rants doesn’t tarnish his reputation too badly.

  57. chrisw

    Zed sounds like a complete wanker to me. I don’t care what he did or who he thinks he is - this kind of diatribe is more self-serving than it is constructive to his community. I wouldn’t even look at his resume after reading this crap.

  58. Alize

    what a stupid cunt, RoR is built on top of PHP !

  59. Jon

    What a lot of people are missing when they think it’s noble that he has spoken the truth so plainly is that Zed is always like this. He’s always cursing. He’s always hateful. He’s always accusatory (just short of the point of seeming like a paranoid schizophrenic). And his perspective on the events he’s describing are surely as warped as his rhetoric.

    He wrote a simple web server. What’s so special about that? People use it but so what? This guy and his pitiable public outcry for attention are overrated. I feel sorry for him; not because he’s been abused or taken advantage of but because he obviously created this situation and will continue to create similar situations for himself for the rest of his sad little life.

  60. AW

    Luckily, his blog doesn’t have comments or track-backs, or it’d be a real mess over there.

  61. Andrew Carnegie

    Sounds like a whiny little bitch to me.

  62. Ted

    @Jon,

    You have to view this from the context itself. He’s talking about Rails community. The most hyped, the loudest poutty mouth community on the face of our beautiful earth.

    When he blasted them, it’s like the best drama show on earth. It beats the Taiwanese Parliament fight.

    BTW:
    Yes, mongrel is simple. But I’m sure 90% of Rails community can’t produce a good, simple and usable software like he did. So yes, he’s that special in my dictionary.

  63. Mike Cantelon

    @chrisw

    “Zed sounds like a complete wanker to me. I wouldn’t even look at his resume after reading this crap.”

    If you think Zed’s a wanker, you really don’t have a clue about what you’re talking about and I seriously doubt he’d want anyone clueless to hire him.

    Zed has made major contributions to the Rails and Ruby communities.

  64. Uh-huh

    Sounds like a very smart, but arrogant cocksucker. Would anyone really want to hire an arrogant piece of work like him, and have him prance around the company bashing and demoralizing other programmers and staff?

    Hats off to Google for offering him the junior programmer job to this cocksucker! HA.

  65. dave

    His rant was fun to read, but if I run into this guy on the street, Im gonna slap him in the face with my nunchucks. I always carry nunchucks.

  66. Jon

    @Mike Cantelon

    “If you think Zed’s a wanker, you really don’t have a clue about what you’re talking about and I seriously doubt he’d want anyone clueless to hire him.

    Zed has made major contributions to the Rails and Ruby communities.”

    ‘contributions’ plural? As far as I know he made a web server and acted like a jerk. I’d have to agree with the ‘wanker’ comment.

  67. joe

    This is the brain trust of the Rails community? A guy who thinks he’s a badass because he wrote an HTTP server? Sheesh. I wrote one of those in C once, to do it I just implemented the fucking HTTP spec. Now bow down and call me master.

  68. chrisw

    @Mike Cantelon

    He’s a wanker because of his attitude. Hiring someone like him would be like injecting cancer into you development team. I know plenty of clever people who are very successful and have, at times, had grievances with other people they have worked with. What sets them apart from Zed is they don’t feel the need to rant publicly about them or call them names in a public forum. They simply move on and make certain not to get burnt in the same way again.

    But then, you called me clueless, without knowing anything about me either - so I guess maybe you’re from the same school as Zed? I know all I need/want to know about Zed just from reading hos blog.

    Life is too short to waste time with people with such aggressive attitudes regardless of how ‘clever’ they are.

  69. Ryan Stout

    I cant believe he said be has a hard time getting good contracts. I get severial contracting offers per week through my site bustaname.com If I had to guess it probably has to do with the fact that he’s a jerk. The fact that someone with his reputation cant pay the rent shows you he clearly has personality problems.

  70. Jay Earl

    Why does over react and take things so seriously, when it’s clear his writing style is some what clear that it should taken with a pinch of salt.

    Irrespective or rants and opinions, Zed’s done a lot for the the Web/Ruby platform.

    While Zed’s statements are overly brash, as a Rails programmer, there is an element of truth in it. I’ve been down the same route with PHP myself.

    And FFS, not everyone whats their own start up. Why does everyone have to judgemental these days by measuring how successful someone is by things like if someone owns a company and what they earn.

  71. Aaronontheweb

    @chrisw,

    “Zed sounds like a complete wanker to me. I don’t care what he did or who he thinks he is - this kind of diatribe is more self-serving than it is constructive to his community. I wouldn’t even look at his resume after reading this crap.”

    The entire point was to burn his bridge with the community.

  72. Chris

    @Aaronontheweb

    “The entire point was to burn his bridge with the community.” - yeah, I got that. But what he is actually doing by posting this type of post is highlighting his own personal shortcomings. Most people, like me, will form the opinion that this guy is bad news. He may have aspirations to move on to bigger and better things beyond Rails but I doubt that he’ll find success or happiness until he addresses his anger issues.

    It’s OK to be pissed at the Rails community but is it really that constructive to attack everyone like this while at the same time promoting how awesome you are? My personal philosophy is ‘never burn bridges’. As a business owner I learned years ago that a positive attitude, even in the face of adversity, is more valuable than sulking about what could/should have been. What’s that old saying? …. ‘Onwards and Upwards’.

    Zed needs to get of it and himself.

  73. AnonTroll

    The guy is a riot LMAO. Sounds like he didn’t get much love for his work, kinda like Rodney Dangerfield. But he does sound like a rocking coder though.

  74. Mike Cantelon

    @chrisw

    “I know all I need/want to know about Zed just from reading hos blog. … But then, you called me clueless, without knowing anything about me either - so I guess maybe you’re from the same school as Zed?”

    So it’s wrong for Zed to issue public commentary on a community he’s been involved with your years, but it’s okay for you to issue public commentary on him after reading a single blog post?

    That doesn’t make much sense.

  75. Founder

    Zed forgets his place. You’re a programmer Zed, that makes you a tool to be used by people much smarter than yourself. Your opinion on the big picture is not required or welcomed. Programmers are a dime a dozen, get back to coding or get replaced.

  76. Mike Cantelon

    @Jon:

    “As far as I know he made a web server and acted like a jerk. I’d have to agree with the ‘wanker’ comment.”

    In addition to coding Mongrel he also recognized and alerted folks to problems with the predominant Ruby implementation which has led to these problems being fixed. Helping improve the implementation of a widely used programming language is not something normally done by “wankers”.

  77. Gabe

    LOL Founder. Yeah, founders are inherently smarter, just like the first group of people that came to California in 1849, they were real fucking smart.

  78. Mike Cantelon

    @Founder

    “Your opinion on the big picture is not required or welcomed. Programmers are a dime a dozen, get back to coding or get replaced.”

    This is why you’re not the “founder” of Google. Smart businesses know that smart people are not “a dime a dozen”.

  79. Phil Dewey

    Why does everyone in 2.0 think everyone else is stupid? And why do they feel perfectly justified in expressing these feelings about everyone else in the foulest of language? There was a time this was called “low self esteem”. Now it’s called awesome…

    This phenomenon will end badly.

  80. LiquidSilver

    After reading his long rant, I do have my share of sympathy for Zed. Although this style of public criticism mixed with cursing and swearing is a bit extreme, it serves the sole purpose of digging up all the dirty facts about the Rails community.

    I am no Rails programmer and don’t even know what Rails can do exactly. If all those facts posted by Zed are valid, however, then the Rails community has a lot of aspects need to be improved.

    @Founder, I don’t agree with your point of view as Zed is just a tool. I treat the developers who help me to code my startup project with respect. I also listen to their ideas and thoughts since they have their fair share of experience with other projects and not just simple typing machines who knows some programming syntax.

  81. chrisw

    @ Mike Cantelon

    Sure - Zed has every right to post what he likes about who/what he likes. But just because he contributed to the Rails community for a long time doesn’t mean he has to attack everyone in such a bitter way just because he doesn’t want to play anymore.

    My comments were merely a response to what I read like many others here.

    I don’t know the guy personally and I am not attacking him. I am simply saying that he sounds like a wanker based on his blog post. After reading these posts I went to his web site and got the feeling that Zed is in fact a guy with a strange sense of humour. In retrospect, after reading more about him, I think Zed may be misunderstood by many people due to his off-beat approach to self marketing. Telling everyone that you’re the best at everything and that “if you talk shit to me and don’t back it up with a fight then you’re a pussy. Pure and simple. I could pimp you out as a $2 whore. You’re that weak.” isn’t going to win you too many friends or help your programming career.

    I own a web development company and I hire people based on their credentials and their ability to work in a team environment. Based on Zed’s site I wouldn’t consider him for any job regardless of how good a programmer he is. He really doesn’t strike me as a ‘people person’.

  82. Gene Dieken

    Arrrgghh! This bro needs to take his lithium. And maybe throttle down the cowardice and enable comments on his blog! How about make a single useful point in 500 words?

    Douche factor: 10/10

  83. JohnnyRocks

    Just go .Net or Java, and you’ll work for years if you are good. Those are mature, stable platforms used by millions. They are sitting in most every big enterprise. Why waste your time with the toys like PHP, Ruby, Rails, etc???

  84. LiquidSilver

    I am .Net developer, but had a taste of php before as well. I certainly don’t agree with the fact that php is just a toy. With good understanding and practice, php can be powerful as well.

  85. Mike Cantelon

    @chrisw

    “I think Zed may be misunderstood by many people due to his off-beat approach to self marketing. … He really doesn’t strike me as a ‘people person’.”

    I’d agree he’s likely misunderstood… this post came from *years* of frustration. I haven’t worked with him, but did meet him briefly and found him to be funny, knowledgeable, candid, and insightful. He’s definitely someone to listen to if you’re interested in where web application technology is going.

  86. Scott G

    At first I thought it was a joke. As I read on, I realized he was serious and I thought he was being very immature. By the time I reached the bottom of the article, my gut feeling was that he was telling the truth (biased perhaps, but close enough), and the vitriol was appropriate — it was a first-person account, not a journalistic exposé. He has a lot of credibility within the Rails community; this isn’t some hack trying for his 15 minutes of fame.

    What I can’t stomach is all the comments about who would or wouldn’t hire him now. Here’s an insider, somebody who was deep into the Rails community, with a ton of respect, and he lays bare many of the ugly parts. And all many of you can focus on is his language and likely job prospects? Pathetic.

    I’ve been in IT for 20 years; it used to be called programming, and it used to be fun, but hasn’t been for a while, at least not in BigCorp or Government. There are spots here and there, but in general, IT sucks. That’s just how it is.

    @Founder

    Fuck you.

  87. Ryan A.

    @Founder: If you read the article you’d find Zed isn’t just a programmer.

    And I second Scott G’s sentiment. Why don’t you post without anonymity so we can evaluate your founded business?

  88. Jim Pick

    Classic Zed.

    Too bad (for us) he split Vancouver and went back to New York. The couple of “Ruby Brigade” meetings he hosted here were lots of fun.

    He’s got a lot of horror stories to tell. I can relate. Hey, it’s tough being an under-appreciated genius. ;-)

  89. chrisw

    @Scott G

    I think you missed the point. Apart from airing his grievances about the Rails community Zed complains that he gets screwed by employers who don’t respect him or his talent. Hence the comments here about why people like me wouldn’t engage his services particularly after reading his post. Take a look at his web site too and you’ll see what I mean.

    He’s probably a decent guy - but after visiting his web site and reading his blog you’d easily get a different impression.

  90. SG

    I would fight Zed if there was a cash prize of some sort…I trained under the supervision of Cobra Kai and am fully confident that I would beat Zed to a pulp…

    Hai-Yaaaaaa!

  91. Silicon valley don't care

    SV dose not care what the effort is anymore. Try to pay you bullshit for contributions that make it possible for their start up to sell for a $100 million.

    Greedy little cock suckers are the norm in silicon valley now days

  92. Tim

    “There’s no work for a smart man in a town full of stupid.” — That just rules. :)

  93. ST

    I just wish I was a smart as Founder, I heard he was having the next Facebook developed by a bunch of dumb tool programmers! Apparently there will be baby pics involved! It…will…kick…ASS!… Watch out for the next internet millionaire extrordinaire!

    All BS asides…Zed’s rant made me look at Merb, which looks quite interesting! :)

  94. Jon Doerr

    Look past his trash talk and you see that this is one talented dude.

    The smartest guy in the room is the one who can ultimately manage him properly. If he could be managed, he would indeed be an invaluable asset to any team.

  95. Ivan Drago

    When did George Michael change his name to Zed Shaw?

  96. Chris

    Oh, whaaa whaa … my life sucks …. whaaaa…..

    What a whiner. Get a life Shaw. Sure hope to cross paths with you one day … will have to kick your ‘martial artist’ ass.

  97. Alex

    Go Zed!
    Hopefully he’ll be compensated well in the future. His realization that free software != income makes sense to me.
    If Zed puts a ‘donate’ button on his web site, I’ll be one of the first to make that donation. How do free software contributors pay their rent? Google, how about tossing some serious $$ into people like Zed? Google should be ashamed of itself, with the paltry commitments it makes to helping free software developers. Rails, FreeBSD, wherever someone is writing free software, Google, Facebook, and the others (apple) riding the FSF wave, should place serious money.

  98. OLL

    Are you drunk ? it’s built on top of Ruby…

  99. I Am Sparticus

    > Why are you people enjoying this post ?????

    Serious? I was hilarious. And most of us have taken years and years of sh*t but need to keep playing the game to afford all our bills. To see someone vent the programmer’s lament was soul satisfying.

  100. td00174

    This was just too great. Good read. Hour long, but good read indeed.

  101. gregory

    i wrote him and asked if i could turn it inot a one man show, a theater piece… no reply…

    it could be highly entertaining, and just by tone of voice, comment on many many things in our culture, emotional to technical…

    oh, well, i know i could steal it, but it is always nice to have permission

  102. Todd

    “Remember that I’ve studied enough martial arts to be deadly even though I’m old”

    Classic internet tough guy. “Don’t tease me because I know teh kung-fooz”. Precious. Just precious.

    I can’t help but agree with him about the general state of Rails fundies and bottom feeding consulting companies though.

  103. Alex

    I re-read Zed’s entire post. It makes for ‘the soul of the machine’ story, but black comedy! Cripes Zed, I hope you laugh about all this, soon. When I separate the ironic, twisty, black parts of the cool parts it makes me laugh.

    IMHO, Zed could be a world class comic story teller. Cause its touches on the truth out there, and sometimes the truth is just butt ugly, and you can do nothin but laugh. Dude.. its funny..

    There’s a bright light out there.. :-) wow..

  104. Chris Heald

    I build Rails apps. I love Mongrel (and would be in a tight spot without it!). Zed has some good points - there are a lot of the PHP kiddie “me too” people in the Rails community. Lots of people who have no business coding, let alone coding within a heavily convention-driven framework like Rails. But man, a diplomat he is not.

    He’s got some truth in there, but it’s so smothered in rage-against-the-machine rhetoric that it’s hard to get to the good stuff.

  105. riki

    @ Jaffer The word “Mongrel” means mixed breed dog. It’s also used as an insult in the same way you’d use “Bastard”.

  106. Hugh

    Zed’s dead baby.

  107. anonymous

    @15, right on! I wouldn’t hire him. The way he handles the matter shows that he’s immature and not a team player.

  108. Hendy Irawan

    There are quite many people who are arrogant and not-so-smart at the same time.

    I do think Zed is very smart (I know he’s much smarter than me), and even from his words I think he’s pretty modest.

    Another thing… he’s being outright honest (both about his observations and his feelings) and many (though not all) people I know aren’t. I’m sad that I often meet people I consider casual liars or hides too many things, regardless of their arrogance or brain levels.

    As a disclaimer, yes I myself’ve been arrogant, stupid, lying, and hiding… and probably continue to be, but trying hard to reduce the bad attributes. Aren’t we all?

  109. Seth Brundle

    omg this is sooo funny.

    I have always had this view of the Rails community - but thats what happens when you design a software development platform to be easier to use - you’re going to get a noobish tinge to your community.

    However, the two parts I disagree with him on is his evaluation of his business and software experience.

    As a very financially successful software developer and small business owner who neither has an engineering nor business degree, I can absolutely, positively say that neither degrees qualify you for anything in particular.

    I also do not belittle peoples business ideas - if *they* believe in them, stay smart, and persevere you never know what will become of it.

    Would he have knocked down Google because of Yahoo!’s entrenchment? Or knocked down Facebook in the face of Friendster’s first-to-market? Would he have predicted About.com would be a top cpc channel via topics like pregnancy and southern cooking?

    Also, there is a common misunderstanding that in the web space you are only successful if you are #1 in your space (or have eyes on an IPO or sale), which is ridiculous and naiive. There are plenty of social networks besides Facebook which are very happy with their success.

    I have profited well over 7 figures on two web projects most people have never even heard of.

    Also, I’ve been through the Google hiring process, which is very thorough, and if they offered you a Junior Sysadmin position, that very may well be what they feel you are qualified to do. Years in the business is irrelevant compared to a technical evaluation of your job-specific skills, which they scrutinize relatively well.

    I think this guy is just kind of full of himself because he has a popular piece of software and the community looks up to him, now he thinks hes some kind of rockstar who knows it all - I see it all the time.

  110. Marc Nobel

    I don’t think the pricks (or jerks) that he rants about in his post deserve the time or space they are given when ranted about. I happen to agree, most of the pricks are unskilled untrained and unintelligent and try to stir up trouble. But there are many ruby, python, PHP programmers that are well trained and well mannered. Don’t let his post fool you into thinking every programmer is a prick.

  111. Gubatron

    will he start now doing python on rails?

  112. planetmcd

    Founder,
    That was funny shit. Its going up on my wall.

    I think the real issue is that no one has called Zed on his ability to rent the ring. He mentions struggling with bills, and formal fighting accommodations are not cheap.

    For the record, I would severely mess up his fist with my face. The next time we fought, his primary fist would be so sore from my chin, he would need to pummel me with his off hand.

    Kidding aside, I am very grateful for his contribution of Mongrel, it makes my deployment life a lot easier.

    Thanks Zed.

  113. Socrates

    Interesting post. Nevertheless I don’t think Zed get well in the picture in some parts of it (especially when he uses popularity as an argument…), even though he seems to have arguments in other issues.

    Just a quick question: why people compare Rails, Ruby on Rails with JAVA, PHP, etc?

    Frameworks are not programming languages (strictly speaking).

  114. Roy

    ….wow….

    I say… umm… well,…

    Thank you for Mongrel. Seriously. If we could afford you, sir, we’d send you an application in a heartbeat. Although we’re not doing anything with it that you’d actually find interesting.

  115. marnok

    He doesn’t seem all that smart to me. He can’t even make his point without cuss words or name calling. The only reason he can’t get a job is his larger than life attitude problem and a lack of diplomatic skills.

    Typical finger pointer who blames everyone for his problem, except himself.

  116. Scott M.

    Rails hit the “koolaid point” a long time ago. This is to be expected.

    http://headrush.typepad.com/cr....._pass.html

    Still, Zed’s post is filled with such vitriol and is so adolescent, I’m not sure why it’s being given space on TechCrunch (except maybe because it’s a slow tech news week). Constructive criticism about a framework or technology, even if impassioned, can be useful and is welcomed. Personal attacks tend to weaken one’s position (even if amusing to some of you). I’m guessing if you were on the receiving end of Zed’s rant you wouldn’t be too happy about it…

  117. matt

    hey, the man’s got passion. he obviously cares very much about his work, as the best coders always do.

    with or without the rant, employers like google should be begging zed to come work for them. the fact that they’re not says something about our hr depts.

  118. lc

    Maybe he should move out of the lower east side and to Queens where rents are lower. However, perhaps there are too many cocksuckers there. haha.

  119. Mike F

    What a great humorous start to the New Year but there is more than a grain of truth in what he says, one moment you can be top of the Web and be on all the best invitation lists then next week it’s serving McDonalds to go, attitude or no.

    Way to go big boy;)

  120. Bob

    “… Any of you guys call me Francis, and I’ll kill you.”

  121. Juan

    Lighten up, Francis.

  122. nexusprime

    Oh dear.

    He is pretty solid technically (Mongrel certainly is clean code), but one can only hope he finds a position he is happy in, in the kind of company that recognizes the contribution he can make.

    No-one really wants to work with an asshole that thinks he is better than you.

    Compromise in your working life, and you will find it much easier to start earning serious money and concentrate on things important to you.

    Jobs where you are doing what you love, are well compensated and working with a home-run team are rare, and fleeting (key people always leave, eventually).

  123. TechYob

    In Australia we would call this “doing a Mark Latham”

  124. des

    I would hire Zed in a heartbeat.

  125. Kilat

    he have some points but we do all know rails is not perfect
    the inner reason about this is not about rails but some people on
    ruby community AND zed shaw misunderstanding. Zed used rails because
    he LOVES RAILS….peace.

  126. Jack

    Phil Dewey: “There was a time this was called low self esteem”

    Those times were wrong. Read the post again, and tell me if all this anger comes because he thinks he’s no good at anything, a loser etc (low self esteem), or because he’s arrogant and narcicistic (too high self esteem).

    This whole self-esteem movement the last 30 years, where we teach kids how special they are (even when they are clearly just average), and that they have to go out and demand their place in the world was bound to create problems like this.
    Far too many of them.
    That’s why the rest of the world is reviling against anglo-saxon cultures, we’ve created a generation that is just too damned selffish, demanding and think the world owes them.
    It’s time to switch the emphasis to results, and self-control. Doesn’t look like Zed posseses either.

  127. Rails is NOT dead!

    Any language/framework that saves a developer 10x time over Java is A++++ in my book. The Framework’s already good enough and doesn’t need to be bloated like others.

    My only complaint about Rails is that the rails wiki needs to be monitored better because it’s become (if I dare say) Ghetto.

  128. Eman

    Wow..it’s great for someone to actually step up and say what a farce Rails is. Does anyone know of any serious website that actually uses Rails…Basecamp? you kidding…Sharepoint is more impressive as an app.

    I spent a year basically killing my career as well trying to get a Rails app running because our investor thought it was so hot. Holy shit…a complete disaster. If anyone has _real_ successes…then chime in. I want to hear “Dude, I made $5M on my Rails webapp…we produced code 10x faster than everyone else and made a mint”

    Instead I hear the general “Hey I can do Hello World in ten lines of code”. the problem is simple:
    1) No compiler - this means that you get to remember everything in your head…change this, break that….lots of fun when you have customers down
    2) Crap threading - this has all the problems that a web app without threading brings
    3) Crap performance - not only is Ruby slow…but you have to improve performance with caching….for God’s sake wtf wants to cache dynamic content..why can’t stuff just work.
    4) Nightmare to manage - This is the worst….its like working on live electricity all the time…its terrifying to deploy new code because how much testing can a startup really do.

  129. John

    “I mean business when I say I’ll take anyone on who wants to fight me.”
    *sigh*
    So rarely do we get to see good programmer-on-programmer combat these days.

    @Gubatron: there’s already a framework for Python called Django that generated a buzz a little while back.

  130. Raul

    Zed.

    an advice.

    write a “how to do good ruby coding” of something like that

  131. Melvin Ram

    It was kind of like seeing a place burn. The big flames might look facinating at first… but in the end, I just find it disturbing and sad. I wish him well.