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December 5, 2007

Some One Call A Lawyer: Live Documents Clones Microsoft Office

Duncan Riley

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Live Documents, the startup founded by Hotmail co-founder Sabeer Bhatia that said it was going to war with Microsoft with its online Office suite wasn’t kidding, with screenshots showing that the service is a nearly perfect clone of Microsoft Office.

Digital Inspiration was the first to find screenshots of the yet to be released Microsoft Office killer, and if it wasn’t for the Live Documents bar at the top of each shot you’d swear you were looking at Office 2007; soo much so that I’m at least a little bit skeptical on the scoop; I’m not saying that they are not real, but it wouldn’t be hard to mock up shots like this.

Presuming the shots are real the question then becomes whether the service is legal. Other sites have previously suggested (not in this case) that layouts can not be copyrighted, but I’m sure once Microsoft sees a complete clone of their Office package they’ll be wanting to test this theory in Court.

See our previous coverage here.

Update: as pointed out by commenter’s a full range of screenshots are now available on the Live Documents site.

livedocs.jpg

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This entry was posted on Wednesday, December 5th, 2007 at 2:07 am and is filed under Company & Product Profiles. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

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  1. TechBeta » Blog Archive » Some One Call A Lawyer: Live Documents Clones Microsoft Office

    December 5th, 2007 at 7:36 am

  2. Quorim Blog » Live Documents

    December 5th, 2007 at 8:14 am

  3. bigBrains.com » Blog Archive » Some One Call A Lawyer: Live Documents Clones Microsoft Office - Techcruch.com

    December 5th, 2007 at 8:28 am

  4. Live-Documents.com Screenshots - MS Office 2007 Clone? - Betaflow

    December 5th, 2007 at 4:26 pm

Comments

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  1. trehus

    December 5th, 2007 at 2:21 am

    why shouldn’t you write up all clones of Facebook???

    Did you check their website before writing this post?? All screenshots are now available online. You should at least check it before posting.

  2. Jono

    December 5th, 2007 at 2:21 am

    A clone it is. However if you’ve ever tried ThinkFree Office you’ll find that it’s practically a clone of Microsoft Office 2003 (mind you Office 2003 didn’t use a completely new usability paradigm as Office 2007 does).

  3. Yakov

    December 5th, 2007 at 2:27 am

    they even clone a name and logo :)

  4. YDRIVE

    December 5th, 2007 at 2:27 am

    There’s certainly sth. called trade dress, as part of the trademark process..
    ie,. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_dress

    How it’s applicable, always debatable.. (xerox’s vs. mac’s vs. ms windows…)
    and oftentimes not applicable or not enforceable across different jurisdictions..
    so, again, who copies who, visually?…

    in fact, all the top-row colors of blogspot / digg / facebook all look similar…

    and cf. http://skydrive.live.com and this http://www.livedrive.com eg, certainly look diff..

    /ac.

  5. Duncan Riley

    December 5th, 2007 at 2:29 am

    trehus
    WTF? what’s Facebook got to do with this?

  6. Blah

    December 5th, 2007 at 2:32 am

    Hmm…. this is just PR! Move along…….

  7. fastdump

    December 5th, 2007 at 2:36 am

    trehus is right…

    Not sure why “Digital Inspiration was the lucky site with the screenshots…” when they’re publicly available to view on the Live Documents site (in the “screenshot tour”).

  8. Dan Rogers

    December 5th, 2007 at 2:44 am

    What do you think, MS will sue them or not?

  9. Paul

    December 5th, 2007 at 2:45 am

    Something is not right. If they went to all the trouble of making a Flex app that looked so similar to Office 2K7 in a default view then why is the dashboard screen so stylistically different. Also some of the dialog boxes also feature a very different UI motif.

    As a Flex coder I would say that they did a great job if they managed to re-create so many GUI components that are visually the same as a Windows counter part. But re-usable components should be easy to include everywhere so the visual inconsistencies do not make sense.

  10. Michael in California

    December 5th, 2007 at 2:47 am

    Nice grammar.

  11. Dario Salvelli

    December 5th, 2007 at 2:55 am

    Damn! A percect clone: i write> about Live Documents and some people confused with the MSFT office.
    A clone of Facebook already exist: it is Hatebook! ;)

  12. Duncan Riley

    December 5th, 2007 at 2:55 am

    @fastdump
    If they’re available at the site so be it, but I’m still obliged to reference the source; if they picked it up first so be it but it’s still the place I read about it prior to this post.

  13. YDRIVE

    December 5th, 2007 at 3:04 am

    Doesn’t really matter the arguments.. media (TC included) are never meant to be neutral.. and TC owner/s got this vested interest in online storage biz stuff thus, don’t expect it to be neutral… grin.

  14. okaythen

    December 5th, 2007 at 3:10 am

    I can’t believe they would even attempt to clone the user interface in such a blatant manner. Microsoft has design guidelines set out for the Ribbon control, which all application developers must follow if they use the Ribbon in their applications. Microsoft grants rights to use the Ribbon control in any type of application *except* Office-type applications. By using the Ribbon this company would only be creating a great deal more work for itself, both in terms of legal expenses and ultimately in terms of the software development they will need to do to make a new UI (which they will have to do when they lose the court battle, if it gets that far).

  15. Kevin

    December 5th, 2007 at 3:22 am

    There is a big difference between documents and a working web app. This has been the holy grail of bubbly software for a while now.

  16. Todd

    December 5th, 2007 at 3:23 am

    I cannot wait for the Cease & Desist order or lawsuit from Microsoft claiming that Live Documents is “stealing” their interface!

    http://www.techcrunch.com/2006.....interface/

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A.....osoft_Corp.

  17. Rijkard

    December 5th, 2007 at 3:29 am

    Poking a finger so blatantly at the eye of one of the biggest software companies is one of the worst business plans one can think of.

  18. jkruger

    December 5th, 2007 at 3:34 am

    I think this may be less than you think…

    http://www.telerik.com/demos/a.....t=controls

  19. micfo.com

    December 5th, 2007 at 3:45 am

    Intel is partnered with them, they might have prepared for the battle.

  20. Bhaanu

    December 5th, 2007 at 4:02 am

    Loooks really cool.

  21. Harald Felgner

    December 5th, 2007 at 4:06 am

    We argued before that our personal Office killer features are #1 The Ribbon and #2 SmartArt Graphics. I see the ribbon in the screenshots. What about SmartArt graphics? The question I sent in to InstaColl two weeks ago remained unanswered …

    http://www.felgner.ch/2007/12/.....alike.html

  22. sinha

    December 5th, 2007 at 4:09 am

    You have to realize that live-documents is a Microsoft-friendly product. By saying that, all I mean is its “ready-for-acquisition-by-M$-only”!!

    Even the name has been kept as live-documents, so that it integrates well with MS’s ‘live’ brand! (Sabeer Bhatiya made $400mn fool of Gates, he hopes to repeat the history with live-docs!).

    http://www.pluggd.in/2007/11/l.....er-bhatiya

  23. Spandana

    December 5th, 2007 at 4:11 am

    no way anyone is going to sue. microsoft should be worried about google docs than going after a small player like live documents. not even worth even suing.

    $20 says nobody is going to court on this.

  24. Moe Glitz

    December 5th, 2007 at 4:19 am

    Plus they also clone Apple’s Quicktime Logo.

    Perhaps they should go for the Hat-trick and add some Google colours too.

  25. Harald Felgner

    December 5th, 2007 at 4:26 am

    Short addition: I have an answer from the Live Documents team:

    “[...] Also, regarding the ribbon, let me clarify that we have not used the Ribbon/Fluent UI as such - while the look/feel of the toolbar is close to Office 2007, we have not replicated the dynamic contextual reconfiguration of the toolbar.”

    http://www.felgner.ch/2007/12/.....comment-64

  26. Darren Stuart

    December 5th, 2007 at 4:46 am

    I think you can actually license ribbon from MS and they might have done this. They have the connections with MS to do that deal. Not sure if you could license it for the web.

  27. Anonymous

    December 5th, 2007 at 4:58 am

    He’s just begging for an acquisition.

    Kind of sad, really.

  28. Anonymous

    December 5th, 2007 at 5:06 am

    Duncan,

    Whom are you sleeping with (apart from arrington)?

    The users here want to read about new companies/products and reviewing them. There is a difference between Reviewing them and bitching about it in such a lowly manner.

    I realize just because ZOHO is a sponsor doesn’t mean you bitch around.

    It is only matter of time, before people get fed up of these kind of stupid antics.

    chow!

  29. Avinash

    December 5th, 2007 at 5:22 am

    @jason. The disclaimer bit was not in the “About Us” section when I had checked this page on the 23rd of Nov, 2007 (which is the previous post by techcrunch on live documents). I think after receiving a lot of flak at techcrunch about sabeer biting the hand that feeds, they might have ended up including it. The things that these guys do to get into the good books ;). Do they really mean what they say or is it just a face saving measure?

  30. Shanky

    December 5th, 2007 at 5:29 am

    As 20 and 24 stated, this is surely aimed as an acquisition play in the hope that MSFT will need something to counter Google Docs.

    In a way, pretty smart. Mimic and save time on UI concepts, get on MSFT’s radar, use a couple of connections to whisper a price around, and see an exit within a few months of launch.

    What’s wrong with positioning yourself this way? This is business, folks.

    Am just surprised that Duncan didn’t address this in his post.

  31. Robin

    December 5th, 2007 at 5:32 am

    Great PR for what seems to be Vaporware: I registered on their website 23 November and didn’t receive a confirmation email: when I emailed to ask why I got this reply:

    Thank you for registering for the Live Documents technology preview.
    We have received a massive number of invitation requests and we will be rolling out account activations in batches.
    You will be one of the earliest to be invited to try Live Documents - please expect a mail in this regard shortly.

    Has any one received an account yet (by the way that came from an email address with this domain name http://www.instacoll.com)

    I can’t yet see any evidence of real software: will it actually happen?

  32. Matt

    December 5th, 2007 at 5:47 am

    wow… talk about a clone

  33. JohnofScribbleSheet

    December 5th, 2007 at 5:59 am

    Don’t know why I would choose this over Google Docs.

  34. Marcus Stade

    December 5th, 2007 at 6:00 am

    If Microsoft would indeed sue the site in question over blatant GUI-stealing, it would be an interesting case to follow considering Apples lawsuit against Microsoft over stealing “the general look and feel” of their GUI which Apple subsequently lost. I’m not too well versed in that particular case, but I assume that there’d be prejudice against Microsoft if they would indeed sue Live Documents.

    Now if Adobe would only sue Live Documents over the name, considering Adobe’s use of LiveDocs ;o)

  35. Darren Stuart

    December 5th, 2007 at 6:08 am

    I can’t see anymore acquisitions in this space to be honest. Most of the big players have this feature set. MS is going to build their own for sure and yahoo have theirs now and google theirs too.

  36. Rijkard

    December 5th, 2007 at 6:10 am

    I really don’t get this talk of this being an acquisition play apart from the Live Document folks hoping that would happen.

    Would YOU reward someone with an acquisition who has cloned your product to the tee and rubs it in your face?

    Microsoft has plenty of other products beside Office that could also be copied this way by others.

    Also, for expanding the current Office experience to web, Microsoft already has an online beta Office extension at officelive.microsoft.com.

  37. mwaped

    December 5th, 2007 at 6:33 am

    These guys are real copy cats,if he thinks he going to repeat history he is just fooling himself

  38. John

    December 5th, 2007 at 6:38 am

    Does anyone know how to use the indent bar when quoting someone?

  39. iverevi

    December 5th, 2007 at 6:39 am

    Um, they have a downloadable program to “integrate” Live-Documents with MS Office. I’m guessing that screen shot is the integration, not the online application.

    As someone pointed out earlier, the live-documents bar at the top is so stylistically different, that my assumption makes sense.

  40. Sneezy Melon

    December 5th, 2007 at 7:13 am

    Hell! That’s an exact copy. They’ve only taken out time to rearrange the stuff and rename the software.

  41. gregory

    December 5th, 2007 at 7:20 am

    this is why they invented the word “karma”…. never did much of anything creative, piggybacked on the hotmail team, made a tone of money because microwhatsits was dumb…. and has never done anything since, except wear cool clothes in delhi hotels…. copying is an indian thing with its own rewards, there really isn’t the same concepts of individuality in that culture, so, what would we expect? originality? nah

  42. meer

    December 5th, 2007 at 7:35 am

    If the gurus at TC had the decency to do a little research on what they are writing about they would not embarrass themselves everytime they open their mouth.
    Please do us a little courtesy and try to first figure out what “Live Documents” really is. This is what they say:

    If you want to continue using your existing Office applications, Live Documents works within the mainstream productivity applications that you use everyday - Microsoft Word, Excel and PowerPoint - and adds a layer of control that seamlessly extends your ability to share and manage documents created in these tools.

    This totally explains the image above. Yes! someone call a libel lawyer!

  43. Marzipan from Toledo

    December 5th, 2007 at 8:00 am

    Photoshopped for sure.

  44. Hilarious

    December 5th, 2007 at 8:09 am

    “Other sites have previously suggested that layouts can not be copyrighted, but I’m sure once Microsoft sees a complete clone of their Office package they’ll be wanting to test this theory in Court.”

    LOL. Classic quote. Very true.

    We all know Microsoft isn’t afraid to go to court - and they sure as hell have plenty of money to do it with.

    Pretty dangerous position for a startup, where one big lawsuit can wipe you out.

  45. Hilarious

    December 5th, 2007 at 8:14 am

    Wow - I just went and checked out the screen shots on the actual Live document site. These ones here at TC are real.

    I thought perhaps there was a screwup. This is one of the most blatant rip-off jobs I have ever seen. These guys are seriously asking for it.

    http://www.live-documents.com/index.html#

    There’s the tour for anyone who is interested.

  46. Mike

    December 5th, 2007 at 8:22 am

    Reminds me of the new aol.com ripping off Yahoo.com

  47. jack

    December 5th, 2007 at 8:23 am

    Isn’t it somewhat suspicious that a week ago, they “launched” with no screenshots, got slammed by all the bloggers and then, lo and behold, suddenly these beautiful screenshots appear a week later?

    What kind of marketing plan is that?

  48. facebookjunkie

    December 5th, 2007 at 8:34 am

    @ 39.

    I think I have to agree…seems like the most likely reasoning behind the screen shots.

    Duncan, I feel sorry for how everyone attacks you.

    I like your posts though, that’s all that matters.

  49. spline

    December 5th, 2007 at 8:44 am

    @micfo.com
    Intel will not back a new startup against one of his partner, alias Microsoft! Particularly in a evident case like this one where Microsoft can easily kick the hell out of Live Documents (no matter what, they patented the Ribbon and it’s design).

  50. Steve Ballmer

    December 5th, 2007 at 8:46 am

    Going to war with us, BUT, copying our format and striving to be compatible!

  51. Robin

    December 5th, 2007 at 8:52 am

    Is that the real Steve Ballmer or is it a clone?

  52. Paul

    December 5th, 2007 at 9:47 am

    Funny that these guys would be the first to exploit the MS ribbon for what it must have been designed for in the first place. The ribbon interface is much slower for power users, probably no faster for standard users. Even though it looks easier to learn than traditional menus, 95%+ of computer users already know how to use the traditional menus, and MS holds over 90% share in Office-type apps already - which new users were they hoping to capture by compromising efficiency for the rest of us? But the ribbon makes sense is for use in a simplified application environment: web apps.

    As to why Live Documents would court a lawsuit - maybe it’s a feint to attract a publicity-generating lawsuit.

  53. Peter Yared

    December 5th, 2007 at 10:05 am

    There is prior case law for this: Lotus sued Borland to remove their Lotus 1-2-3 “compatibility mode” from Quattro Pro. Borland won on appeal and was permitted to continue mimicing the Lotus interface.

  54. Scott

    December 5th, 2007 at 10:54 am

    I am not sure of the legality of what they are doing, but I have some opinions.

    On one side, I like what they are doing by “cloning” MS Office. The majority of MS office users will find it comforting to move to an online environment where the user experience is nearly the same as what they are used to on the desktop. In this regard, I think Live Documents and Think Free are on the right track to gain mass appeal.

    What I don’t like about this is that Live Documents is obviously trying to leverage the competitive advantages that Microsoft has gained for their own benefit. Live Documents hasn’t earned that right, they are taking that right. And it seems they went this route mostly because the founder came from Hotmail/Microsoft and it essentially saying F-U to them. First, the name “Live Documents” is obviously an F-U to Microsoft and will confuse end users as to whether it’s related to Microsoft since it has the word “Live” in the name. The UI is also obviously an F-U to Microsoft and further makes end users think they are dealing with a Microsoft product. For some reason, I feel less this way about ThinkFree even though they are doing something similar. ThinkFree just seems more genuine than Live Documents.

    In fairness to Live Documents, their front page does explicitly state that they have no relationship with Microsoft, but that goes in one ear and out the other. It’s like a correction in a newspaper. Few read it and associate it with the original story and most people remember the original story regardless of the correction.

    I don’t see anything legally wrong with what they are doing by mimicking Microsoft. In the end, I think the winner will be the one that give end users the smoothest transition from desktop to online. It’s more that they are trying to leverage goodwill Microsoft has gained in desktop software and using that to their advantage as if they thought of it. Couldn’t they come up with their own good ideas regarding UI design other than mimicking what Microsoft has done on the desktop? It’s not criminal. It is technologically impressive too. It just smells of a personal battle being brought into the open.

    We’ll see what happens.

  55. Blogger

    December 5th, 2007 at 11:13 am

    Excellent english.

  56. silverlee

    December 5th, 2007 at 12:36 pm

    The master of PR…
    http://propertybytes.com/?p=381

    “in the end, just another one trick pony” — Michael Arrington

  57. mint question

    December 5th, 2007 at 2:03 pm

    “Don’t know why I would choose this over Google Docs.” uh, familiarity? the same reason people continue to purchase Windows. Don’t forget that the far majority of office software users aren’t techies by nature, and will flock to what’s familiar.

  58. dopenkly

    December 5th, 2007 at 5:09 pm

    @32

    Spot-on!

    @Duncan: You are really uninteresting. I need to start skipping your articles.

  59. Microsoft has got an uphill battle

    December 5th, 2007 at 5:23 pm

    Before everyone gets excited about MS getting their lawyers on this. Remember this.

    This company is based in INDIA, not in sue happy United States.

    And India has little regard for frivolous law suits especially from the US.

    So I’m sure Sabeer ain’t losing any sleep… He’s no dummy. The joke is on Microsoft

  60. Thilo

    December 5th, 2007 at 6:12 pm

    ouch that can cost a lot of money and be very expensive. Either for Microsoft or for Live Documents.

  61. Sabeer Bhatia sold his soul to Microsoft devils.

    December 5th, 2007 at 7:24 pm

    Maybe Sabeer Bhatia has message. He want sell microsoft stock and want Hotmail back. Microsoft contract say no… He sign it anyways.

    you don’t get to keep the co-founded company you own. lol.

  62. sally

    December 5th, 2007 at 7:52 pm

    It’s a cultural thing. Anything goes with Indians.

  63. David Mackey

    December 5th, 2007 at 8:04 pm

    Have a hard time believing thats what the software is going to look like. Sabeer isn’t a n00b.

  64. RiO

    December 6th, 2007 at 1:18 am

    Eh, what’s the big deal if they copied a sucky UI in the first place :P

  65. Uthfull

    December 6th, 2007 at 5:47 am

    @ 64 and others :
    What’s this with attacking the Indians? Racist comments don’t make you look cool. Try and be an intelligent critic instead of a troll.

    That said, I really don’t think Sabeer Bhatia will do something great with this product. He started a number of companies after hotmail failing miserably. But I don’t agree with No.61. Agreed about the law suits… but some pressure from a big corporation like MS can’t be ruled out.

  66. very suspicious

    December 6th, 2007 at 6:53 am

    http://www.live-documents.com/downloads/index.html

    System Requirements
    Windows with Microsoft Office 2000/XP/2003.

    it appears that it does not support Office 2007.

  67. anand

    December 6th, 2007 at 11:25 am

    westerners got civilised only after Indians got civilised.
    maybe call a lawyer for that.

  68. Samuel Martyn

    December 18th, 2007 at 9:31 pm

    Hello

    I have a very nasty experience with citi bank cards division. I had submitted a secure keypad system to citi cards division then head Mr. Steve Frieberg in 2005. In 2007 they have implemented it silently without even giving me any credit.

    I guess this comes as a habit and has nothing to do with civilization.

  69. Samuel Martyn

    December 18th, 2007 at 9:32 pm

    You can get an idea by checking the following site:

    http://ip2connect.com/roller/owtsar/

  70. ScrewBall

    December 19th, 2007 at 10:37 am

    Whats up with all this crap about Indians? Raises ugly heads…. Either the product is good or bad. Thats it. Why straitjacket a civilization? Did that achieve anything other than irk a few? I don’t understand nor will I ever. Stupid fools (the ones who embark on this racist jog around the technology park).
    That sadi …. This product is lousy, that is accepted (if there is a product). I have not received an invitation yet. The earlier product (online collaboration worked like a charm) and I liked it when I used it. But this one seems a straight-copy, a clear case of ctl+c and ctl+v

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