Comment Trolling Has A Psychological Explanation
Duncan Riley
81 comments »
Comments trolls are the bane of most sites; where as the vast majority of people may never comment on a post (as is certainly the case with TechCrunch) those that do usually fall into one of three categories.
Legitimate commenters, who have something thoughtful to say and/ or add to the conversation (for and against), link spammers who comment on the off chance they might get some traffic as a consequence of their comment (sometimes these fall into the first category..hard to tell) and trolls, who make it their business to criticize anything written and the people who wrote it, in some sort of sad attempt at self validation by being nasty towards others for the sake of it. Like taking drugs, trolling is a poor mistress that demands more and more to feed the self satisfying addiction that props up their self esteem.
New Scientist has a psychological explanation for poor behavior online. Whilst the post talks mainly about email, NewScientist draws the relationship between this and comment trolls. You can read the whole post here, but here are some highlights:
Social psychologists have known for decades that, if we reduce our sense of our own identity – a process called deindividuation – we are less likely to stick to social norms…the same thing happens with online communication such as email. Psychologically, we are “distant” from the person we’re talking to and less focused on our own identity. As a result we’re more prone to aggressive behavior, he says.
Another factor influencing online communication, according to Epley, is simply the risk of miscommunication involved with text-based messages, which are inherently more ambiguous. At the same time, he notes, email “has the feel of informality – we just fire something off”, even though we probably ought to treat it with the same care as a written letter. And, as most people probably know, this can cause problems for both the sender and the receiver.
I’ll leave the final word to New Scientist’s Michael Marshall:
I’m not sure what we can do to minimize miscommunication and abuse online. But being aware that we’re not as good at communication online as we’d like to think seems like a good start. I know I often have to restrain myself from joining in.
image credit: Wikimedia commons
…har har, he he
congrats first troll on being first…I expect many more on this thread, but it was too interesting not to write about
Very, very, very interesting.
Not adding value here.
i think the felt “distance” and openness of online communication allows some users to misperceive themselves in it… without social reactions in the physical world, where the same behavior would cause alienation the troll is instead oddly validated, as you can see from the previous post.
Something a little bit unrelated but show how the digital age has been changing the world of cinematography and brought to there some “trollers” as well.
I remember we once talked about how the digital age have been changing the world of cinematography and more importantly how cinematorgraphy student shoot. Not so long ago, you were required to use very expensive films for your camera in order to shoot a short film.
So while shooting a scene, you were planning it very well and everything was measured, well though. Every student was really disciplined in the fear of throwing some very expensive 35mm film.
Today with the new camera, shooting is like you described, “you can fire something off” and pretty quickly, if its not good, you can shoot it again and again without really spending money.
The outcome is that most people end up undisciplined and spend more time on shooting scene. But on another end, I cannot stop thinking that with if we weren’t using these digital camera to train ourselves and gain “cheap” experience, lot of people wouldnt have been exposed to this wonderful world.
Shooting a movie can be done by anyone, it has been brought to the mass, of course it had increased the “noise”, and there is more bad movies than before, but what the heck, more people are enjoying.
Just last quick note, comments are often fired up pretty quickly same as posts that you’re posting in order to make a “breaking news” in time.
I am sure you’re not really checking how well is your grammar or if you have mistakes, you fire this up and then correct it later. It is common since a blog want to be the first to publish the news.
God Duncan you’re so predictable , this is to do with the many upset replies you got on that digg topic you wrote about a few days back.
Ever think it may have just been a useless topic? Instead of looking around and attacking viewers, Take it on the chin and accept that some topics are just not news worthy. You’ve done many great topics in the past . skip the junk and gossip and I promise you, you’ll get a bunch of positive replies..
The best way to validate a troll is replying back to it
As often, Penny Arcade wasn’t far off:
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19
I love the fact that Chris is trolling and doesn’t realize it.
dont confuse trolls with real dissent. trolls like to start arguments period, dissenters are mortified at a common lack of insight.
elegance - sometimes it how the troller/commenter expresses the opinion that determines which category they are in.
“its when people stop criticizing that you should worry, because thats when they no longer care”. Remember that quote?
Comment threads are also the only right to reply readers have to the never ending babbling that goes on in the blogosphere. When you create something and “put it out there” you can take the criticism on the chin and punch back or accept it and move on. As soon as you publish it’s not yours anymore and people will respond as they see fit, not as you see fit!
Calling your commenters names is not going to help you nor will it cover up the vapid nature of much of what gets written on Techcrunch or other “high profile” blogs.
@12 totally right.
There’s no bad publicity, remember who said that? Truemore’s Guy kawazaki.
elegance
I always welcome (most) of your comments, it’s only when you slip away from a decent argument and call on me to be fired that it becomes trolling. Honestly comment any day, but remember there’s a real person on the other end.
It is amazing when you write stuff, about how far over the line people go between dissention, which is perfectly fine, to defecation, where they just want to shit on you.
awww how cute duncan is fighting back against the commentators who criticize his weak posts.
go duncan.
Steve
good points. Happy to have a good argument on the points of any post, but when it gets personal, that’s trolling. Says a lot more about the commenter than it does about me
Jesus, so any time someone has something negative is casted simply as a “troll” Here is a hint… Ignore the positive and pay more attention to negative comments is the only way to adapt, improve and stay on top of your game..
Duncan, I think we should all be held to account, and with comments we can hold you guys to account (a little). You boastfully claim you ’say it as you see it’, and you post both positive and negative posts about companies. Some of your posts have had a very serious negative effect on the companies. The onslaught you wrathed on PPP is one example, (I realize MA is the guilty party here not you) but there are many others. In your position you can almost make or break a company while in its embryonic stages of life. And as such you hold a power over others that is very profound. Both in your ability to cover some companies in a positive light, then those in negative light and then all those that you simply ignore. If you don’t know what your talking about it makes it very precarious for those that are out there trying and battling in the arena.
It is only fair that we have our say in response, and pull you up when we see fit. To call us trolls is pretty inflammatory and yet I am not getting excited and attacking you for doing so. It is more a reflection on you than me.
That I called for you to be fired, and I understand you are a human on the other end, I don’t see it any different from when you slag off a company. Its all fair in love and war. I do think many of the TC posts are way off the mark, and MA is as guilty as most.
All that said I do find a lot of value in TC and have read it for about a year. But it could be better!
I love the fact that Mr. Arrington is trolling and doesn’t realize it. To wit:
“…some sort of sad attempt at self validation by being nasty towards others for the sake of it. Like taking drugs, trolling is a poor mistress that demands more and more to feed the self satisfying addiction that props up their self esteem”.
cf:
“Psychologically, we are “distant” from the person we’re talking to and less focused on our own identity. As a result we’re more prone to aggressive behavior”.
Dear Duncan
I trolled on one of your earlier post with the official iphone article?
But you checked it out & replied.
So it was worth it right ?
Oh BTW Micheal I admire and applaud you sticking by your employees, but ask yourself, is sticking by a low end writer good for your business?
I understand this is a numbers games I often post controversial / ridiculous topics in my own market to see my numbers rise.
But surly when it starts effecting the credibility of your product , it has to stop.
Like I said in a previous post, I don’t see why ALL topics can not be ran by you for approval before they go live.
Additionally, the increased use of Instant Messenger in the business world opens us all up to aggressive behavior as well as more opportunities for miscommunication. Before you fire off that snarky reply to a co-worker using Skype, remember that you WILL have to see him/her and work closely with that person in the not too distant future.
Sometimes it just pays to count to 10, and go talk to the person, avoiding email and IM entirely.
Bow Retards.
“Like I said in a previous post, I don’t see why ALL topics can not be ran by you for approval before they go live.”
Chris MA is as guilty as anyone for poor quality and is often pulled up! please come up with another solution…
My preferred solution would be that they run all the posts past me first…:-)
Duncan,
If we contribute to the discussion at hand, do we not have the right to promote ourselves as well—within taste. We’re all startups that are just trying to get a voice in the discussion. Hurts no one.
elegance I lol’ed…
On a serious note, While I agree SOME of Micheal’s posts in the past have been low quality,However I do think he is a talented writer and properly researches his topics before posting..
On the other hand It just seems Duncan posts too much, I mean look at todays front page for example … Out of 11 topics 7 are Duncans.. How can he be possibly researching his topics working on so many articles at once?
My advice to Duncan, or as he would call it “trolling” is only focus on the better topics and do them properly rather than posting on anything and everything badly.
That digg post I keep referring to was clearly NOT researched properly.. Anyone thats even been to digg more than once would know that..
While this is an open forum, it is important to remember that if you have nothing constructive to say, you shouldn’t say anything at all. I have seen some flames on here but the community does an excellent job in weeding them out by not responding to the troll. However, flames and harsh commentary on a product / person are separate where the former requires one to be downright nasty and the latter discipline.
Slow news day?
Go once dead, MoFo!
sorry if i offended you in the past duncan… i’ve never called for you to be fired but you could call me the occasional troll (very rare occasions, i.e. the occasions i comment on one of your posts… erm.) … hehehehe
for what it’s worth, in the spirit of brotherhood, I now (more and more) look forward to what you’ll post about next… as an individual i have the most in common with you of any other author here… but a vast difference of opinion all the same… sometimes my comments are fueled by a knowledge that the “real person” on the other end of this jazz has a podium, a soapbox sometimes it seems, from which to opinionate and we “dissenters” (as the case may be on rare occasions) do not… so ok, out with it? Jealousy fuels a lot of comment heat from regular joes to “you people”.
so for what it’s worth I think Duncan needs a Raise… hear that mike? pay the man!!! his posts bring more clickthroughs by me from the rss reader to the real page than any other author… uh… he makes me want to use edgio… what else… i dunno… dont listen to these silly nerds about duncan… you know as well as i do that none of them can even spell apostrophe let alone know where to use them. (Then again, if one of the authors here DID mispell apostrophe i doubt it would be caught by that overpaid slouch you call an “editor”… pffft.)
Sorry, Erick… Duncan was catching all the heat… so i figured I’d dump some of it out on the “O’Reilly Echo” over there….
Love the blog, keep up the good work guys!!
p.s. To my fellow commenter/lay-people: about making or breaking startups and giving these people shit about it?? Puh-lease!!! I doubt Mike would post about a bad startup unless they were begging him for reviews and press… they wnat to leach off of what he has built: pageviews, traffic, YOU! So they hound the inbox and god forbid the phone pitching themselves as a candidate for review.
It;s the old addage, “be careful what you wish for because you just might get it” and these idiots wish for a TechCrunch review… well they got it didn’t they? So TechCrunch did not sink a startup… having an abysmal business plan, incompetent executives, and a shit service is what sank those comapnies… not TC.
So, what’s worse, the ad hominem attack or the useless 3 word praise with a link. I skip over both.
Most trollers on TC actually make some valid points (even if hitting the author in the process) and I learn from those comments all the time. The emergence of the “troll blog” is testament to the fact that many of these feelings are widespread in the tech blogosphere.
As an outsider, it is kind of easy for me to see that the “troll” would get a better response if they phrased their argument(s) with less vitriol, but nobody’s perfect….
matt, many here are not lay people! I have no problem with TC trashing sites, I wished they’d do it more. Yet I do get all excited when I see them writing tosh. More importantly I couldn’t give a toss about the grammar of the writer. It’s all about the content! Chris Sack and myself have made worthy contributions, like it or not!
What do Psychologists say about a person who cannot accept criticism Duncan . May be its time for you to look that up
Try a reflection in the mirror as to why you are targeted before complaining about it like a child and finding stuff to make your point. Understand that when you set out to write for an audience like TC, you are bound to get criticism. And if you cannot accept that fact, then you lose nothing, neither does TC, but its just the readers who will be left with posts like this one 
I guess I have made it my mission to comment on your take on China, Duncan. I don’t think it’s accurate to say that the Communist party wishes to stifle foreign owned businesses in China or even censor most foreign websites. I like your posts because they invite argument and discussion - trolls.
This post feels like a movie where the actors acknowledge that they are in a movie.
@ elegance: lay-people in as much as “blogosphere elite” are concerned. By that measurement, yes, lay-people. I’ll explain…
In the web industry according to the blogosphere:
TC = Very influential source (that probably DOES take rather special care of what gets published) blogging about startups and other goings on that interest the likes of you and me and those people up there and the people, assuredly, to follow down below… for our entertainment… educational entertainment but entertainment none the less.
Commenter on TC = Anonymously (often impersonated) and care-free “blotting” (not blogging) their off the cuff opinions at a moments notice.
So as far as “worthy contributions” of yourself and Chris “I-might-be-a-different-person” Sack, I will pose no argument. Unless of course you count the fact that I see none of the UGC “after the jump” as very “worthy” of anything besides the occasional deletion as an argument. (Sorry “Chris”, but it is what it is.)
Do I put quote marks around too many words? Yes.
LMAO @ #37 (exapted) about the movie line…
part of the difference is that we (the audience) feel a connection to you (the writers) because your tone is personal - ie the difference between reading a blog post and a regular journalism article in a paper or magazine (unless an op ed piece). Probably something akin to people who feel they “know” or “love” celebreties even though they’ll never meet them face to face (unless they stalk them). Was in line behind two early 20’s aged women not too long ago discussing brad and angelina as though they were intimate friends (rehashing tabloids)
Also I find many blog have plenty of spam comments lying unattended by blog owners, is not that communication going one way? Not sure but few those orphan comments might be explosive.
I don’t have time to read the whole report, but I’d think it would be germane to mention that some people are just jerks whether it’s online or off. I don’t see this in the summary, but then again it’s probably hard to get a grant for that insight.
That said, very few of these elements, save perhaps distance, were relevant when I was being a dick to random people in CompuServe’s “CB” chat in 1982. Maybe I need to read the whole report to figure where that fits in.
I think there’s a corollary to the first excerpt above, though, in that identity may also play a factor when the person does not see themselves as having a solid identity in the context of the forum being “trolled.” That is, perhaps there’s a “new world” mentality here that should be accounted for, where people “find themselves” again and again in different milieus. This would allow someone who is an incorrigible antagonist in one forum to have positive relationships and effects in other forums.
Has anyone figured out how to monetize threadjacking or comment trolling?
Simple Vandals or a Unique Social Movement?
A Psycho-Sociological Discourse on Internet Trolls
http://www.io.com/~zikzak/troll_thesis.html
@ 43 someone needs to talk about how. I’m in!
maybe time to integrate one of those new comment widget solutions for TC, so relevant comments get modded up, and trolls get modded down (a la Digg, SlashDot, etc).
if you can do that & still avoid effing with the chronological order, might be a real benefit.
then again, i do enjoy baiting the trolls, since they’re so easy to manipulate
here, trolly trolly troll-troll… want a tasty treat?
Chris R. is the king of spam and trolling, surprised not to see him chime in here…
I don’t troll anymore - I just made a whole deindividualized site, bitches.
Who trolls to just party (drug refrence)?
May this be the most trol…, er… commented TC post yet.
Duncan,
JS-Kit Comment service stops Trolls:
~ Invisible: The moderator sets a user as “invisible”. Only the Troll sees the post
This leaves them thinking they have slammed the site but nobody else sees the comment.
~ Pre-Moderation: New users must make N good comments before pre-moderation is removed. This forces the Troll to say some good things first. Since Trolls have few nice things to say, they seldom get in. If they do — wham — they get blocked and have to start at the begining.
If you or any of your sites have issues with TROLLS switch to JS-Kit Comments and Ratings!
Be Well,
Khris Loux, CEO
JS-Kit
khris at js-kit.com
A lot of it seems to do with how closely the site owner moderates. There’s almost a “broken window effect” of trolling; the presence of some trolls on a site empowers others to do the same. I can’t tell you if it’s a question of feeling like one can “get away with it” or if the earlier trolls actually provoke the later trolls, but once a site starts to become infested it becomes self-sustaining. Site owners can take a strong stand early against trolls and try to hold off the oncoming waves, tower-defense style.
That said, no wonder services like ReputationDefender (http://www.reputationdefender.com) and its competitors are springing up to help people un-say the things they troll in the heat of passion.
You should smile more in your pictures, Duncan.
Question for the TC community:
“link spammers who comment on the off chance they might get some traffic as a consequence of their comment (sometimes these fall into the first category..hard to tell)”
Is it poor form to post a comment with your url at the bottom? I never would do it on some networks but it seems like quasi-common practice here. My thinking is if you post in good faith and make a positive contribution to the conversation it’s ok…
Wow.. I guess that makes George W Bush the Super-Troll of all trolls. All conditions apply, and then some.
being the former owner of yahootrolls.com i was getting over 50,000 visitors a day who loved trolling …there is a place!
“Social psychologists have known”
(false statement)
I agree with the general thrust of this post, however, the danger I see with a topic like this is that there is a line between dissenting opinion and actual trolls, and sometimes it is difficult to distinguish between the two. I’ve seen threads where people are accused of trolling when in fact they were trying to express a different point of view, so I try to give a commenter a chance to prove themselves before calling them out as a troll. That said, sometimes trolls are blatantly obvious in their attempts to get a reaction from the thread whom I picture as being adolescent teens who see it as the modern day version of the prank phone call.
I think Duncan is mad because his attempts to be smart with his yahoo china conversation and a few other recent conversations he was beaten up pretty bad.
Duncan set out the troll bait, no ones else did.
What about a category for legitimate commenters, who have something thoughtful to say and/ or add to the conversation in some sort of sad attempt at self validation to make themselves feel like they actually have friends.
I think the psychology is more simple. Conflict is entertaining.
What’s better than a knock down fight between a post author and it’s troll.
If it weren’t for the trolls, I don’t think I’d ever read a comment thread that goes to 61+ entries.
Duncan,
Now that you mention it, I have trolled (slammed) you before.
You are a likable guy and apologize if I crossed the line.
The reason you infuriate people (me) is you occasionally write pure fluff.
You don’t have to be a jerk and slam a site or company, just review it, tell us why it’s good, and what they need to work on to make it better.
Think quality over quantity.
Like “The Boy Who Cried Wolf,” or my buddy who forwards every email circulating The Internets, let some stuff slide and just give us gems.
Awhile back, TC would occasionally go almost an entire day without a post. It was odd at first, then I learned “that’s O.K., nothing’s going on”, now there’s filler. Cut out 1/2 of the articles (and all of the Second Life ones), and focus on making the ones you write spectacular.
I’m glad we had this talk.
“Social psychologists have known for decades that, if we reduce our sense of our own identity – a process called deindividuation – we are less likely to stick to social norms.” Actually, as far as I know those with a lowered sense of self identity are MORE likely to stick to social norms. Baaa. There is a fine line between constructive comment and comment for the sake of social compliance - check any message board or office cooler conversation and I doubt you will find those commenting along accepted lines in order to be part of the ‘in crowd’ are in possession of high senses of self identity.
I am all for open conversations and feedback, both positive and negative. But if you are commenting simply to slam someone without providing constructive criticism - what’s the point?
It’s interesting that the angry trollers alway hide their identities. If your comments have merit, what are you afraid of?
ok “Chuck”.
@54, Yes it sure is.. there was an article on Search Engine Journal that gives some best practises for blog commenting
I personally believe that there is a little bit of trolling in all us but some folks do not know to control or exercise discretion or tack when they voice their opinion or comments. A little criticism is what makes the world go around, but it also has the power to build or kill someone character or self-esteem and in the case “Dogmatic Troll” that uses this method on a regular basis just for self-serving purposes or vain gratification is someone that do not have much respect for them self or others. The life of a troll must be a very boring one if they have that much time and energy to invest in trying to verbally attack or put others work down just for the sake of it.
Dang, I never thought I’d see a more rigorous proof of the IFT than those in this thread apologizing after getting called out. You wimps are a credit to your cause!
Why don’t you try to fix trolling by incorporating one of those comment technologies you’ve written about like Intense Debate?
Allow the community to weed out the true trolling from the valid (and necessary) dissent.
P.S. I have no connection to Intense Debate, so I’m not “type b” trolling…
@ #62 (a) : Oh yeah, i agree… the second life shit… what is that??? cut that crap out… let’s go ahead and put SL and PPP in the deadpool at the same time… they’ll end up there together anyway.
For sucking. That’s why.
(Is this seemingly irrelevant comment trolling?)
Also… the idea about a digg rating for TC comments is insipid. Voting up/down becomes a popularity contest and valid points are shut out because they go against the flow… The comments here are fine the way they are… the crappy fat gets trimmed off (when need be) and for the most part the 7 people who comment here (and their 500 or so fake identities) do a fine job of making for some entertainment after the jumpety-jump…
it aint broke… don’t fix.
I have to admit I am between type a and type b. But even when I am commenting as type b, I still try to make my comment relevant and useful to the conversation, so type b is not necessarily bad… Unless of course, they just write “nice post” and link back to their site…
As for type c… screw you… who the hell do you think you are? i don’t need to self-validate
I’m the mod of an online forum and when I find a troll I follow the same routine: I go through their posts and edit them, making them either wholly inane or (if they’ve really annoyed me) a mass of vile epithets. They really, really hate it.
I think this is a dangerous thing to start. He was stating an opinion, not personally attacking any one person, simply stating an opinion. And he was arrested for it? Even if it was a terrible thing to say, does he not have the right to say it? Where does this line get drawn and who decides it?
Hi! I can’t post messagte here…
google