Duncan, YOU are the person who is attacking the messenger. Tom Lantos has a number on his arm. Tom Lantos was in a concentration camp in Nazi Germany. Tom Lantos, luckily, escaped being cooked in the ovens of Auschwitz to let us know that China is like Nazi Germany. Tom Lantos has a first-hand basis for comparison.

Tom Lantos does not need a lesson in history: Tom Lantos lived it. Tom Lantos has tried to give people, including you, a decent lesson in history. You refuse to get that decent lesson in history from someone who experienced it first hand; your apologetics for fascist-socialist thinking are ridiculous on their face.

The difference between Yahoo in China and Mission Research in the US is context: our privacy statement reflects the framework of US law (note, there is nothing in there about warrantless searches, which we would refuse to comply with). Free speech is a fundamental human right. Dissent is fundamentally democratic. China consistently violates the human rights of its citizens, and no, I would not comply with China, and no, we would not comply with US requests for information if in doing that we would contribute to violating human rights.

So Yahoo, benefitting from the protective framework of the US Constitution, goes to China and benefits from the framework of the totalitarian/communist government, and yes, I have a problem with that. So does some US law, it turns out (Maritime laws, for instance).

Yes, a lot of people believe in there being an “objective truth.” So do the Chinese. Probem is, it’s just that “their” objective truth differs from “your’s.” So now what?

Don’t forget that objective truth is what leads the Islamists to hate us “infidels” or the Christians to proselytize on your doorstep. Objective truth is the Manifest Destiny or the White Man’s Burden. Much blood has been spread and much “evil” has been transgressed in the name of there being some notion of an “objective truth.”

Again, I warrant that there are certain black and whites in this world. For example, an overwhelming majority of humanity (and the animal kingdom) abhors the idea of eating one’s own species. An overwhelming majority of humanity seems to frown upon incest. An overwhelming majority of humanity also seems to think murder is a pretty bad thing (though tempered as it is by the dictates of “society” a la capital punishment).

But again, the idea that there are inviolable and inalienable individual human rights has not yet been elevated and instituted as objective truth. Even in the out beloved United States, individual freedoms and “rights” are still weighed against the needs of society. Read any Supreme Court cases? Do you hate or love the ACLU? Patriot Act perhaps?

Look, that’s just life. It isn’t fair. I’m not suggesting that we do not struggle or strive for something “better” for ourselves or others, but when it comes to “helping” others “see the light” that we apparently see, we’d do better to first understand their circumstances and the context in which their culture exists before we just curse them as a “sick and twisted culture” and demand that they bend to our will and conception of the universe.

Our founding fathers did not dictate the Declaration of Independence for the whole world but for their little plot of land in the New World. That was their vision, not necessarily that of the Chinese or the Muslims or the Africans, or hell, even the British. Your fundamental error in thought is evident in how you persist in applying your social, legal, and moral framework upon other countries, cultures, and people. Just as you have no right to impose your religion upon another in the States, you have no right to impose your government upon another sovereign nation. While we may have the Constitution that we look to for guidance in such matters, the international arena pretty much means Might Makes Right. So, are you really willing to invade China and kill your fellow man in order to impose your will and force them to adopt your set of beliefs?

Why do you think it necessary to malign, alienate, misunderstand, insult, offend, and anger the very people, cultures, and nations you want to “help?” Do you really think you’ll make much progress this way? Do you really think you’re respecting their individual rights and worth this way? Would you convert to Christianity if someone called you a sinful piece of trash that would go to HELL otherwise?

All of these questions, I encourage you to consider and answer before launching your next jingoistic diatribe. Thinking you have a better idea and wanting to share is fine, but my contention with you is that you’re going about it the wrong way, mostly because you cannot accept that other people simply value different things than you.

If you really want to debate this further. E-mail me (find me on the linked website). Better yet, go visit the linked website and start preaching to the Chinese themselves.

What is that thing called again…Oh yeah! The declaration of Independence! Why was independence to be so boldly declared? Because…”We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable Rights”

Yes that’s right, all men are CREATED equal and consequently endowed with INALIENABLE (inviolable, absolute, unassailable, inherent) rights that exist regardless of what ‘the powers that be’ say, think or do.

So yes my friend, if you do believe there is no objective truth then all is merely just an endless battle of opinion. BUT, if there is such a thing as objective truth there are hard and fast lines drawn somewhere (in space, in our hearts/minds/consciences who knows…) and THEY ARE NOT TO BE CROSSED. And one of those lines dear friend is the violation of the inherent worth the weakest, smallest and most insignificant soul possesses. So when the ‘community’ says the little yahoo rebel is not worth a damn they are ABSOLUTELY wrong. Or when the ‘representatives’ of a community says a certain people are inherently inferior (Dred Scott decision) they are ABSOLUTELY wrong.

On communism… IT DOESN’T WORK. How many millions died under Stalin’s totalitarian rule? How many starve in North Korea? Why the HELL do people continue to flee Cuba in boats to Florida?!?!? The academic, theoretical version of communism ‘where everybody looks out for the little guy’ is a pipe dream and proven so by its failure again and again and again. The elite always rise up and oppress. Why? Because the inherent rights of the individual are exchanged for the benefits of the ‘community’. How? Because the people begin to believe it…

Nothing sick about China? What do you call tossing some guy in the slammer for sending emails that speak out against their government? Oh yes…in your world THEIR truth is just as valid as the truth that says individual freedom is a RIGHT that cannot justly be denied. In fact, I guess it follows you would say it is acceptable to behead people in cold blood because they don’t submit Allah? After all, that is THEIR truth and that is just as valid as the truth that says freedom of choice and religion is essential to healthy and decent human existence? But I digress…

China is not nearly as bad as North Korea I grant you (thankfully) BUT have you heard how they treat the Falun Gong? Or shall I send links to videos where the ‘police’ are bulldozing little churches because the elite believe their individual worship is a ‘threat to the welfare of the state’?

I absolutely agree that there is no perfect government or society because there is no perfect man. BUT I also firmly believe that some forms of government or society are superior to others. Those that value the human individual above the masses always end up in a much better state than those that do not. Not a PERFECT state mind you, but an over all better state than the society which has a lesser regard for individual worth or value.

So admango, when I strive towards improvement, I find it impossible to NOT malign those that treat entire races of people as inferior (Dalits in India), oppress women (Saudi Arabia), and disdain human life in general (Jihadists).

For me to NOT malign such peoples/groups/societies would mean to become less than human.

I guess for you and your ilk it is just another way of respecting the validity of ‘their truth’?

Be that it may that you feel that way, the point you are missing with my post is that we are comparing subjective value-judgements here. One culture values the “intrinsic” rights and value of the individual whereas the other values the “intrinsic” rights and values of the community/society. So what? Who is to judge which is better or not? Who is to take either as objective truth, objectively superior, or objectively “right?” No one. That’s the point.

“Communism” is many things, but it is not a “sick and twisted culture.” The world grants many things as black and white, but whether the individual takes precedence over the community or vice versa is quite firmly planted in moral and ethical relativism. Again, it is subjective. It is much easier for you to hop on top of a soap box and denouce others when you dictate the rules for what is “right and wrong” but the world simply does not operate that way. To have a mindset such as that only results in you frothing at the bits wondering why the very people you are trying to “enlighten” or “free” or “save” resent or hate you with every fiber of their being. To a very logical and reasonable degree, the simple fact is that they view the world and they value things that are different from you. Perhaps you have been indoctrinated to the point where you cannot comprehend that others may have different emphases on individual rights than you, but with the globalization we see today, this is as good a time as any other to start opening your mind and learn how to cooperate and coexist rather than impose.

There is nothing particularly sick or twisted about China. After all, the vast majority of its citizens seem to get by in life, with their joys and their sorrows, just like anywhere else in the world. Like most in the West, most of them couldn’t be bothered with the very politics that gets some people’s panties into such a twist. This is not to say there is no injustice or pain or suffering here…but what country is devoid of such tragedies? Have some free time? Peruse some Bentham, some Rawls, some Nozick. They all have some great ideas, but you’ll realize sooner or later that there is no perfect government or society because there is no perfect man. Moreover, striving towards improvement and perfection is probably best done without maligning others as being part and parcel of a “sick and twisted culture.”

No the ‘individual’ is not king. It is the rights and the intrinsic value of the individual that is king. We value the worth of the individual and think it repulsive that one be thrown under the bus for the sake of community welfare (determined by the powers that be).

What we understand that you say we do not is the value system that has no regard for the life of the individual is a sick and twisted culture. That is communism my friend. The most foul of its fruits seen in tens of millions of people thrown into Gulags for the sake of keeping ’societal harmony’.

@NB #154

You pathetic piece of trash and morally clouded fool.

America’s ‘fascist’ agenda eh? Was it a fascist agenda that drove us to hit the beaches at Normandy? Or do you not know what it is I am referring to?

“respect sovereignty of other countries” you say. As in respect the right of other countries to starve their own people (North Korea), or suppress womens’ rights (no driving or working under Taliban rule), or exercise a little ethnic cleansing (Bosnia)?

It was worms like you that smelled the burning flesh in the Nazi crematoriums but shrugged it off as be acceptable under the current laws. According to you we should have respected the right of Germany to rid itself of the “Jewish problem”. After all, they were a sovereign country.

that’s non-sense.
please google a bit before saying that.

The problem with this line of thinking is that it appears rational but is built upon a false premise: that another culture has the same values as you. In the West, perhaps particularly the United States, the individual is king. In the West, individual rights are paramount and the sanctity of an individual’s life trumps the needs/desires of the greater community. This is simply not the case in China nor is it in many other parts of the world where it is the other way around: an individual may be sacrificed for the “greater good.” In China’s case, the powers that be have determined that political dissent is dangerous to the harmony of their society. You may never understand that because you have been indoctrinated and socialized to value different things and ideals than they have. Until someone can actually grasp that fundamental and key difference, you will never be able to tackle this “problem” in a productive way that influences change. There are a lot of “rational” arguments in these comments, but many of them are based upon false premises that render the following arguments entirely moot.

#146 Dont’ try to misguide readers here. It is one country two system only when it comes to doing busienss but, when it comes to security the Chinese have the only say. In China; speaking against govt. is a crime.

#148 You seem to believe that America has god given right on earth to promote their facist agenda in the name of freedom of speech? As a soldier you seem to think that USA is omnipotent and it is either your way or highway. But sir, that is not true. You have to respect soverignity of other countries. China is not afghanistan or Iraq. Chinese people take pride in their culture and heritage of thousands of years. Please stop war mongering. Don’t think that young Chinese under 30 would welcome liberating American army even if they don’t like communism.

#150 If giving out personal information of your customers is illegal than why is congress poised to forgive all sins committed by ATT and other telcos who are being sued in warrantless wiretapping case? Do you know who was Yahoo CEO at the time? It wasn’t Jerry Yang, it was Terry Semel and to your surprise he is jewish.
And if you think doing business with China is immoral than stop purchasing stuff those are “Made in China”. But, if you can’t do that you don’t have any moral right to speak on the issue because as I mentioned in my earlier post; we are all responsible for the fate of Chinese dissident.

There are many sides to this story. Duncan is clearly naive, although I believe that Raymond (who wrote the comment challenging my post) is too focused on the less than 1% of the population that’s a victim of oppression.

This posted clearly created a lot of passion, but the rhetoric is mostly from people who have very little (if any) first-hand knowledge about China. And, unfortunately, when they have it, it’s usually as an English teacher or worse, as a tourist. (English teachers in China live in an artificial world; they’re rarely exposed to the types of issues that faced Yahoo. They also tend to be idealistic, but that’s another issue.)

I don’t view this as Yahoo being held to a higher standard. It’s simply that Yahoo’s actions resulted in the imprisonment of a journalist.

Regarding Gitmo and U.S. malfeasance (if that’s what it is), what does it have to do with anything? It doesn’t. IF the U.S. is doing something wrong vis-a-vis the Patriot Act, then appropriate disciplinary actions should be taken. But this doesn’t excuse the imprisonment of a journalist.

Much, much more at the AO post …

Helping the Chinese government supress political dissent is bad.

Helping the U.S. government spy on American’s is bad, no matter what the wind bags in Washington say.

Giving out personal information of your customers is illegal under U.S. law, and is therefore forbidden to all U.S. corporations, even when operating in murderous police states like China. Doing so, when you know that the consequences for your victims will be imprisonment, torture, and probable death, is so immoral that if you were a man of honor, you would hang yourself in shame for even suggesting supporting it.

Yahoo’s CEO at the time was asked by a reporter if he would have turned over Jews to Nazis, since it was legally required. He said “I don’t really know”. No person with the slightest sliver of moral conscience has to consider that question for a second. Evil must always be resisted.

I do think it’s immoral to do business with China at all. The reason they’re not embargoed is that Nixon thought economic engagement would make them loosen up. To some extent it’s worked, and to some extent it’s a typical Nixon screw-up. Taking your moral cues from Richard Nixon is not particularly wise.

I am sure I am going to get slammed for my opinions, but I just couldn’t believe what I was reading.

As many have said, yes, the laws are Chinese, and yes, to do business there you have to comply with Chinese laws.

Duncan dre the Nazi reference right away, and as such it has been a part of this discussion as well. As many have rightly pointed out, Nazi’s were just following the laws of their society as well.

Duncan tries to be logical in the face of overwhelming evidence of evil and oppression. You cannot be logical and say Yahoo! had to obey the laws. By using the argument that Yahoo had to obey laws, you have opened the door to all kinds of arguments, and probably ones TC had best leave alone.

Duncan mentions Gitmo and how people there are detained illegally. Others mention the “millions” killed by the United States in illegal wars.

The ignorance of such statements boggles the mind and sometimes I wonder how in the world we live in such people that are presumably educated and intelligent (if they are reading TC) can make statements like this.

-Guantanamo Bay: The U.S. Military has bent over backwards to comply with the International Community respecting the rights of the detainess, contrary to the hysterical blog posts and main Stream Media reports to the contrary. Did you know that there was an area in Gitmo, tented off where the detainees were allowed to pray, and none of the Gitmo staff was allowed to enter? This was to assure the inamtes of privacy so their religion could be respected.

The result? The prisoners started stockpiling homemade weapons, revolted, and attacked the guards. Pity the poor prisoners of Guantanamo Bay…. ridiculous.

Our media is so incredibly biased on an Anti-American slant it continues to amaze me. I am a former service member who has travelled the globe and seen firsthand brutality enacted by other governments. And when people criticize the U.S., I have to laugh. I have never seen a freer place on Earth. In China, this blog post would most likely get a Chinese citizen’s door kicked in by the police and dragged off for interroagation. Does anyone remember Tiannamen Square? Good God!!!!

-Doing business in China: U.S. Companies that choose to business in China should make it clkear to the Chinese that they will NOT obey laws that are clear violations of human rights. The argument that the dissident “could have been a terrorist since Chinese Intelligence knows more than Yahoo does” holds no water. The KGB knew more about their citizens yet people defected from the Soviet Union on a regular basis. Dissidents from China that escape also seek asylum.

How may U.S. Citizens have to escape the brutality of our government and seek asylum in China?

Of course we have the global economy. If China will not allow companies from democratic nations to do business without participating in oppressing their people, then those companies should not do business in China. When I read comments like, “This is an unfortunate case, but China is improving”. Tell that to the man’s wife. Since when did one human life not matter?

I was a solider, and everytime a soldier gets killed in Iraq and Afghanistan it stings me– I served in peacetime, but I know people in war zones and I don’t want them hurt. Just because China isn’t gunning people down like Tinnamen Square in 89 doesn’t mean they are better.

Have any of you actually spoken to a Chinese citizen younger than say…. 30 about Tinnamen Square? THEY HAVE ALMOST ZERO KNOWLEDGE OF IT. The government has worked so hard at repressing the voices of freedom they snuffed out that day that students in China today are clueless about their own history. I met a girl in her 20s from China (exchange student) and we talked about politics and she literally had no clue about Tinnamen Square. She had heard about trouble in 89, but didn’t know much else. Not the famous man in front of the tank, nothing.

Appeasment is simply that: Appeasment. Perhaps I am ideological in that I believe in good and I believe in evil. The fact that our government doesn’t recognize Taiwan’s government says volumes about the appeasment of China because of their economy.

Every time history moves farther and farther away from atrocities (WWII), people seem to forget the magnitude of what happened, and history repeats itself.

This debate has literally made me intensely sad, because when intelligent people turn their backs, what hope can the oppressed ever truly have?

Did you know Theodore Roosevelt predicted war with Japan back at the turn of the century during the Japanese Russsian war? He was off by 40 years, but he was right.

My final question to those of you slamming the U.S. — as you make your taacks and comparisons trying to make the U.S. look poorly… have you travelled the world? Have you ever seen true human suffering and oppression? Have you ever left your cocoon of soft living in the U.S.? I live in San Francisco, and some people feel oppressed because some trees are being cut down on a college campus to build a stadium. So the students have lived in the trees since December. This is not oppression, this is rich kids that don’t need to work trying to save a few trees. Should we do business with Myanmar too? Will Yahoo and Google turn over the names of monks that use their services to the junta when they are declared terrorists?

God, what a tragedy- and it will only get worse as China’s influence grows until there finally is a war some 40 years from now.

Title says “Feinstein backs legal immunity for telecom firms in wiretap cases.”

Funny it came out one day after the Techcrunch post

it was yahoo HONG KONG which provided the chinese government with Shi Tao’s information, not yahoo CHINA.

under the “one-country, two-systems”, Hong Kong and China run different legal systems.

now why did Yahoo HONG KONG comply with the law in China is beyond me.

You point out those who attack you personally in this thread, accusing them of a ‘poor defense’ but then you turn around and do the same (cultural elitism and supremacy…).

You say ‘Way too many responses to respond to…’ Perhaps that is because you have no response to posts like 127 and 110. Instead you just address those that go on the personal attack. A sign of a ‘poor defense’ or ‘no defense’ from your side of the spectrum.

Stick to your techie stuff friend and stay out the realm of ethics unless you are prepared to intelligently defend yourself and your position.

And for all you morally deluded windbags who throw out the moral equivalence (non) arguments, Just remember, in China they run protesters over with tanks. And oh yeah…throw people in jail for emails that attack the government. Thanks to Yahoo.

You have to understand that there are not many foreign government adept at controlling media in foreign countries. Whether or not Yahoo was compliant with local laws is not as interesting as the fact that China succeeds in manipulating Western companies to their own end.

I wrote something about this over on my blog - http://thechinagame.com/2007/1.....am-pulled/

As has been stated, Duncan, you’re out of your depth on this subject. You’re simply not knowledgeable enough to be making comments like that. And you don’t have the decency to admit it.

I’m guessing that you’ll be looking for a job soon. Perhaps you could apply for the position of Public Relations Officer at China’s Department of Torture, Executions, and Organ Removal. Sweeping tens of millions of corpses under the rug isn’t an easy job, but it looks like you’re the man to do it.