I should have added, I also would like to see a grammar checker in Google Docs as well, then I’d never use MS Word again

Hi Duncan

Great post! How do you get around the problem of having the same email appear multiple times in your offline mailbox due to the grouping of conversations in Gmail? I tried it for about a day, but I was responding to the same messages 2-4 times before I realized what was happening. I agree that folders would be a good addition to Gmail functionality, but I wonder how it would be implemented under the current structure of “inbox” or “archive”. I assume you mean folders within the archive.

My understanding, from those smarter than I, is that a code review revealed integration of dictionary/thesaurus, as well as encyclopedia Britannica.

Duncan, if you look closely, folders are just a synonym for tagging — they work in exactly the same way, the word “tag” is not used. So a single item can appear in multiple “folders”, which might still be confusing to some. I like it

Also, as you mentioned, the interface is snazzier, and now the tags are organized to “look like” folders.

anonymous coward
maybe so, but I still like my drag and dropping, but I’m also over 30 so it’s probably to late to change me

Raj
correct, folders within an archive with rule support similar to Outlook; I use rules extensively to deal with email now.

Gmail needs rules and some folders.

Having recently had my laptop (and back-up drives… sigh) stolen, I really want to embrace online solutions like the ones Google offers — but tagging just never worked for me.

My problem is keyboard rage — in a fit of pique, I’m more apt than not to name a file {$awful_and_imaginative_profanity_involving_chinchillas}.doc than anything useful.

Tagging? In that state of mind, I’d merely add fuel to the fire. Gimmie a rigid folder hierarchy and I can find my work no matter how hair-curling the file name turns out.

Greg
One of the reasons I do all my email through Gmail is the backup for this very situation, I get the best of both worlds this way, downloadable into folders while accessible no matter where I am.

Any of this actually work in Safari yet? I’m a bit fed up with all the talk of Google and Apple’s special relationship when they can’t ship fully featured apps for Apple’s flagship product.

I’m a Gmail user, but my main problem with it is threading. I have missed several messages because they were hiding inside the weird threading that Gmail uses (and, for some reason, Gmail doesn’t let you turn this feature off).
To avoid the threading mess, I use Apple Mail to POP my Gmail. That way I am assured that I will see every message. Gmail then becomes the archive for all my messages.

I am confused about what “folders” would add to Gmail that its labels don’t already provide. Duncan, please give an example of what you want to do but can’t. It has rules (they’re called filters) which can sort messages into different labels/tags/folders/whatever-you-want-to-call-them.

Labels are non-hierarchical, but as long as you don’t name two “subfolders” with the same name, you’ll never notice.

Duncan, I agree with you there in the sense that folders are pretty nice but I think tags allow for more flexibility. I wasn’t much into tagging but after writing so many posts for blogs I got the hang of it and saw a very nice way to organize things.

I think the way Google did here was convert tags into folders so you’re still going to be able to tag documents but visually these will be folders.

About Google Docs, who wasn’t expecting Google Gears with it?? I would love Google Docs and Spreadsheets to go offline as well. Plus, when its the slides feature coming?? I though Google’s change would be with these features but I guess I’ll wait longer.

@9, Safari is Apple’s “flagship product”? really?

possible solutions:
v3 beta? maybe

firefox? yes

I, too, want folders in Gmail. Desperately!

I remember in the early days of Gmail that the help system promised that folders were on the way. Alas, it doesn’t say that anymore.

I agree with polymath. Labels perform the exact same function that folders do, but with the added flexibilty of allowing multiple labels per message. How then are folders better?

And in Docs, they’ve just changed the terminology from ‘tags’ to ‘folders’. The functionality hasn’t changed a bit, so it always confuses me when this discussion comes up. Is it a terminology problem, or a functionality one? And why would you want folders when you have labels/tags? Give me ONE reason!

polymath
try Outlook. Drag and drop hierarchical folders. It’s a usability thing for me, as I’ve noted I respect that some people like tags and how it currently works but it doesn’t work like Outlook does for me….and the hundreds of millions of other users who use Outlook as well. Given Gmail is still 3rd (for memory) in online email market share they’d be ignoring a massive audience by not including folder support as well; like it or not people like using interfaces they are familiar with.

Duncan, agreed. Both folders and tags should be supported. In the end, give the end-users what they want. Further, tags and folders are not the same metaphor to an end-user, despite how elegantly it’s implemented behind the scenes in terms of OOP. Folders have a concrete conotation to end-users, where tags are, beyond just metadata, an opportunity to design on-the-fly views of data, saved searches, etc. Further, they are applied and used by end-users in different ways. You create a document in a folder for initial organisation’s sake, but only to tag and retag once it already exists.

@Ben As well, most importantly, tags are not hierarchical as folders are. You basically are assigning a “weight” of precedence to top level folders, as sub folders are more granular, more specific. Now, unless you’re a metadata theorist (like myself), I doubt the average Joe uses tagging in the same way with hierarchical tags like tag.subtag to represent hierarchy.

So this begs the question, when will web tagging support weights, ala network and graph theory?

Well done Duncan, you beat me by 2 minutes regarding hierarchies …

Just as remaind: Google Apps launched as a free service in August 2006 and includes Google Docs & Spreadsheets, Gmail email services, Google Calendar shared calendaring

I think what you’re saying is that you’re looking for a single action that you can perform which puts each message into its intended hierarchy. For instance, dragging a message once into the House\Bills\Power folder.

With gMail’s current setup, one action only nets you one tag, so maybe just the Power tag but not the Bills and House tags.

I think what needs to happen is Google should add some form of tag relationship ability, then you could set a parent/child relationship up between two tags.

For instance, you could set the Power tag to be a child of Bills, and the Bills tag to be a child of House so that every time you add a message to Power, the parent tags are added as well. This would give you the “drag and drop” folder functionality while still maintain tagging’s greater functionality.

Of course all of this would require some interface work from Google, but I for one would welcome it greatly!

(sorry that was so long!)

it is a good change!

tags/labels > folders

they just need to be implemented better
and conversation grouping should be manually link-unlinkable.

please no folders in gmail. ever.
most things can be cross foldered as is, and if not - just use on label on it. simple as that.

Okay, point taken with the hierarchy and I respect your requests. For me it’s never been an issue because I filter everything into only about 20 labels. Once labelled though, I rarely use them again to find a message because I simply use the search function which is much faster than labels/folders and I believe is at the core of GMail’s organisational and functional methodology.

In Gmail, search trumps all, so folders are unnecessary. I believe the Labels are simply there to appease the users in their transition to relying on search. Course I don’t fully practice what I preach, but I can see the intention!

Duncan - I completely agree. We use Gmail in the same way and although the conversation-based sorting, tags and search are effective there’s nothing quite like an efficient series of filters that are one click away.

It can’t be too far off, surely.

You can check out Litepost we’re currently alpha-testing here with tags (work like folders but better IMHO):

http://mail.litepost.com

Seriously let me know what you think of the service (we’re still ironing out some bugs though, necessarily!)

Like Duncan, I use a mix of downloading to Thunderbird and reading online.

I find the conversations both a curse and a blessing! As I tend to use Gmail for mailists, it means that threads I’m not interested in can easily be ignored. On the other hand, as some people get their lists as digests, it can mean that there is more than one conversation for the same thing, so I can’t always tell the order that they arrived in.

I also don’t think that I’m very effective with tagging, I tend to have just a few tags, so I essentially treat them as folders.

What *I’d* really, like, though, would be a way to create a label for all those messages that don’t have another label! I can do a certain extent by filtering, but I have to remember that each time I add an extra filter/label, I have to remember to add the “AND NOT” version of it to my “Misc” filter/label.
An automatic way of doing that would be of real use to me!

Folder ? I don’t mind because the search filter is so good i awalys find the mail i want. I even don’t use ‘tag’. What i would really want is a sort-by-size in Gmail !

Absolutely!! I totally agree with you!! I need my folders, and that´s why I can´t get used to gmail, although I think is one of the best working web-based emails… but I prefer Yahoo!

More than folder, I would like to see an option to turn off threading.

Folders will be definitely useful in addition to tag.

The real missing gmail feature for me is IMAP support. I would switch my email hosting over to gmail in a New York minute if I had the ability to read my mail in a standard mail client via IMAP instead of POP.

I’m being a bit hyperbolic describing Safari as the flagship, but it’s clearly a tremendously important app for Apple — look how much freedom the Safari team have to discuss the product publicly.

I also don’t think that I’m very effective with tagging, I tend to have just a few tags, so I essentially treat them as folders.
Verusli http://www.versuri32.com/versuri/queen/index.php

I am sitting here wondering when I first starting bloggin on here i used to end my blogs with a signature line with my web-address etc.
Verusli http://www.versuri32.com/versuri/queen/index.php

the thing is, you could code hierarchical labels, and add drag and drop functionality very quickly - they they would be exactly the same as folders.

I must agree, if Gmail had folders, I could get rid of Outlook.

I don’t think this was mentioned, but one of the great things about a folder structure is that I can find information with just my mouse. As some mentioned, Gmail’s strong point is search. That means I have to type my search term(s).

For example, if I need to find the login information for a client’s hosting account at Web.com, (which I saved in the following folder structure - Client Name/Client Site/Hosting) I can find that in four clicks. One click to expand the Client Name folder, one click to expand the Client Site folder, one click to expand the Hosting folder and one click to open the message that has the information I need.

How can I do that faster by searching? Not only do I have to type my search term, I have to think about what search term to type. In my case, i have multiple clients, who have multiple sites, who use the same hosting company. What kind of search term(s) would I have to use to NOT get 40-50 results? Then I have to find the message that has the information I need. For you web developers out there, hosting companies tend to use the same subject lines for the various types of emails they send. I won’t be able to quickly scan and know which email contains the information I need.

As Cuneyt points out, folders provide a very efficient way to store information in a hierarchical manner that tagging does not. This structure also provides an extremely quick way to find information amongst 1000’s of emails that search just can’t do in a few clicks of the mouse.

yes me too, no more outlook with folders in gmail, that will be great….

Folders?? Unless you’re using an external email application you don’t need folders. Labels are folders, but even better.

I used to think like that (needing folders in Gmail). You don’t need folders. Labels act like folders, but they’re even better. You see, sometimes you have an email which you would like to save, but have two different folders you can place it in. With the labels, you just add two labels to that email. After you place a label on an email, you hit the “Archive” button for that email. Now you have the email saved in your folder(s).

I keep my inbox up to date with no more than 10 emails since I delete or label/archive them ASAP.

IMHO tags/labels are better approach.
I would have loved to see tags instead of folders in google docs.

Wow,
I didn’t realize what a Microsoft Outlook fanboy you were Duncan.

They haven’t changed anything. The folders are the same as tags, just a different name. You can apply multiple “folders” to each item, same as the tag system before. The only difference is how Google is listing the tags (they are packaging them as folders).

I cringe at the thought of them adding folders to Gmail. I have abandoned all use of folders. Because how Google has developed labels it is so much easier to “tag” a particular message with multiple labels and you can find messages alot easier.

The mindset that folders are the best and only option for true organization needs to end. Outlook is by no means the best option its just the option most people are accustomed to using. Doesnt mean that other options are less capable of doing the job.

I have had a gmail account since the beginning. But I RARELY use it because of the lack of folders, and additionally because of the way gmail threads emails with similar subjects. I’m on a LOT of mailing lists and the threading is a mess and I lose mail all the time. I tried for about a month to make it work with gmail, but went back to thunderbird through my ISP. I can create folders, rules, and there is no threading to lose posts in.

Folders may be representable using labels, but there is implicit functionality in many foldering interfaces that is not available in the current labeled approach gmail provides (or maybe it is, but certainly not evident to me).

When you drag and drop something into a folder, you are also making sure that it disappears from your primary view. That, to me, is very important. Essentially the primary view becomes “stuff I havent dealt with”. Maybe google should add an “unlabeled” view.

As someone else mentioned, folders also serve as end points into multiple labels by virtue of being organized into a hierarchy. This has both advantages and disadvantages, but it does allow quick addition of groups of tags to a particular message.

I too would love to see Folders in Gmail. Though I use tagging, when I refer people to use the service they get turned off by the lack of folders, even though tagging achieves the same end result. Most computer users aren’t savvy enough to figure out the whole tag thing. When you’ve been using Outlook for so many years, I could see how that would be confusing. Especially for the older generation.

I’ve suggested to Google on more than one occasion that they need to treat tags as folders for IMAP clients and vice versa, to no avail thus far. I live in my IMAP client throughout the day, whether it be web-based or client-based, and I use the folder hierarchy to keep everything organized.

IMAP is better-suited than POP3 for keeping mail in multiple locations. POP3 often forgets which mail you’ve already downloaded, and insists on downloading the same things again and again.

Wait! You’re missing the lack of tagging in your E-Mail client and that’s why you want GMail to support folders?

I’d prefer seeing to asking for a new E-Mail protocol, one that supports tagging! It’s about time…

These aren’t folders, they are labels.

“How do you tell folders and labels (or tags) apart? With folders, you can only put a single document into a single folder. With labels (or tags), on the other hand, a document can exist ‘in’ multiple labels.”

http://www.trikenit.com/2007/0.....t-folders/

folders are great -
tags are great -

Combining to greats - is a great thing.

-Rbowles

Duncan, the new Google Docs is exactly like you wanted just folders, but the tags were helpful in many ways. For example if you write this document in Google Docs, there are three labels based on the subjects you write, Google Docs, GMail, Folder, how will assign you just one folder? Tags are a better way to organize you can group topics based on GMail, Google Docs and so on. Now the new Google Docs has removed the tags totally which is absurd. I have more than 1000 documents if I had to go back and assign one folder for everyone it will be a massive headache. How can assign one folder, when a particular topic has many keywords. Labels are a much better option than folders. It doesn’t take long to adjust. Hope Google Docs brings labels back.

so can I tag docs and put them on folders now? can I have folders inside of folders?

Why can’t Google just integrate friggin’ folders into Gmail? The search feature is great, the starring feature is gimmicky, and neither is a replacement for folders.

Interesting to see the depth of feeling for and against tagging. But strange to see people so attached to tagging that they would have Google keep folders out of Gmail and force everyone to use tags.

It would take so little for Google to offer a more familiar interface in parallel with the “I’m on the zen vanguard” one Gmail now offers. Given Gmail’s competitive position, and their refusal to extend a hand to Outlook/Yahoo! types, you’d have to guess that that someone in the company also turned the Gmail interface into a pointless, crippling ideological battle. Not a good sign for them.

I was thinking that the new layout had a lot of potential in a future Gmail release, so I made a mockup of what it could look like, here: http://blog.verani.net/2007/06.....ew-of.html

Tell me what you think of it!

Am I the only one who thinks that the design is really ugly?

I just went to my Google Docs and saw that it’s actually putting folder symbols for those tags. As I mentioned before, I’m still for keeping it as is with the tags and using the “Archive” button.

I do see Nick’s point of view (@44) with respect to other folks who don’t get tagging/archiving. I guess some of us “taggers” may have to create a tutorial.

Is it me or is this review being ripped off here:

http://www.webware.com/8301-1_109-9735795-2.html

I think the use of folder gives us a false sense of security so to speak, it is a feature that we are used to having and so we must have it to feel comfortable using the application. However, it is very limiting to only categorize an email to a particular folder. Many times I find that an email (or file or bookmark) belongs to multiple categories and wish there is an easier way to tag it so I can later search on multiple tags. Fundamentally, I think we should migrate away from folder and use tags only because it is a more natural and useful way to access information IMO.

Folders is a good feature

got to have the folders….

I guess old habits are hard to break, ha Actually a folder can really just be a tag but visually seen as a folder to the user ;=)

Yes, the design is ugly.

Gmail does NOT need to get any more sophisticated, graphical, or JS-heavy than it already is — it already runs slower than death on 5+ yr old machines!

Google should be addressing Gmail’s miserable load time on all machines and slow performance on older machines before ballooning it into some Yahoo Mail 2.0 nightmare.

Folders are lame. What happens when you get an email that you want to put in multiple folders? You can’t do it. If you’ve never gotten an email like that, I don’t know what to tell you.

If gmail were to incorporate, you do realize that all they would do is change the name from “labels” to “folders,” make an icon, and lose the multi-label functionality. They are the same thing.

This is a ridiculous argument and always has been.

@60, that’s what they seem to have done with Google Docs

I find the key to GMail (folders or not) is Search. You have to be ‘brave’ and let your emails sit in this tangled mess of labels/tags, but Googles search is so good I find that I can locate the message I want in a flash.
And you can’t say that about Outlook… woeful.

yup. folders is very needed in gmail. just looking forward for that.

Folders is a step back in my opinion. This is unbelievable. I feel jaded by both Tech Crunch and Google two pillars of forsight caving to the foolish masses. This is definitely an example of people not knowing what they’re missing out on until they try it. Downloading your Gmail account is nearly understandable if you’re paranoid and would like to back them up, but downloading your messages for folders is idiotic. Tagging, searching, and creating virtual folders is the clearly the new paradigm driving data storage innovation industry wide. Hopefully the best of both worlds is possible. Google could create a non-foldered view and a foldered view much as they currently have a chat view and a non-chat view.

Duncan Riley lost a lot of credibility today. Step into the light brother. Outlook is holding you down.

It’s funny how internet discussions always go this way: someone expresses a preference for how they work in their environment (folders) and then a bunch of people flame them for how “stupid” they are. All that Glitters (beta) is not Gold (beta)…

I really don’t care about tags vs folders, but I’m still waiting for Google Docs to support paragraphs via the UI.

I mean, really, what kind of word processor doesn’t support paragraph breaks?

Gmail should utilise folders as an alternative…some of us oap`s out here LIKE folders…they would then appeal to just about everyone!

WHAT A DISASTER!!!!

With folders you cannot choose multiple folders, with tags you can choose multiple tags for a document. I have many folders, too much, and now the complete list to asign folders to my docs is incomplete, even with IE or Firefox.

Well finally! That darn Google-gray was just hurtful on the eyes. As a Mac
user, I’m used to at least a LITTLE aesthetic pleasure when I use the
computer.

For once, Google is actually playing catch-up, now that Web 2.0 styles have
become standard fare throughout the Internet (where aesthetics plays at least
a bit-part in the drama of design) .

Google-Gray never made sense to me. I know they back everything up with
data & numbers dealing with user behavior if X as opposed to Y is done on a
page. But sometimes the herd needs prodded—just a little.

Man I hate the fact that Google Docs added folders. Tags are such a better paradigm. It’s unfortunate that Google has to cater to people that can’t move beyond folders.

If they add folders to Gmail, I will switch to something else. I swear.

PLUS: Why did they change the look and feel!? It looks like hotmail now!!! The “business types” must be running Google now. They are ruining my life!

More people signed up in the last two months for Yahoo! Mail than Gmail’s entire user base. Just a heads up, in case you’re wondering who the real leader is.

PS: It’s not even close.

And what’s about Windows Live Hotmail?
I think it will be the real leader in the future.
- Beautiful interface
- 0 spam (not like the old Hotmail)
- Ajax and no-ajax version
- Integration with Windows Live Messenger
- Offline solution (Windows Live Mail Desktop)
- and of course FOLDERS (yeah, I am from the old school)
- …

If you could have “subtags”, then tagging would work as well as folders. But I have many different kinds of classifications for emails, and I just can’t have 100 different kinds of tags on my sidebar. To group them and form hierarchies would be ideal. I’m a diehard Gmailer, from the early days, and I like what tagging has brought to email, but folders (or hell, “subtags”) would be a definite improvement.

The more I think about it, the more I like a solution that stops short of real folders, but still allow hierarchable tags. If that’s a word. I just want to be able to group tags and have some tags inherit from others.

Gmail will ever get folder feature labels already serve this purpose!! But yeah “SubTag”" will definitely be gr8;

WOW, YES. Google has FOLDERS.

Welcome to 1998, GMail.

Who needs folders when you can get labels?
Please google, don’t touch in my labels.

yeahh…Gmail needs folder..both of them..label and folder..

great idea. tho i resigned fr gmail, i still think labels are just plain stupid.

If you haven’t figured out that labels can be used like folders you don’t deserve to be posting about this stuff…

FOLDERS, FOLDERS

Folders in Gmail will give an opportunity to add my documents in an orderly manner and not piled up in one window. It will be great to tag easily, by just typing a tag in the “tag” area of message and not through drop down menu. It sickens me to use tags the way Google has implement it now, what were they thinking. Folders and Tags are essentially two different things in my mind and one complements each other and not other way around.

Just a brief heads-up: For those who love the idea of being able to tag/label/folderize (heh!) an item with more than one thing, it’s easily possible:

- In the default view, just drag a doc into as many folders as you want (one at a time) and it’ll be in all of them.
- In folder views, dragging a document moves it OUT of that folder and into another one. If you want to add it to an *additional* folder, click the check box next to it, then select a folder from the Add to Folder drop-down box.

So it’s basically the best of all worlds I’d think :-). People who love drag-and-drop can enjoy that, folks who are more comfortable with “folders” are happy, and tag-lovers can basically treat the folders as tags or labels and add as many per doc as they like.

Disclaimer: I work for Google, but am not on the Docs team… just a very enthusiastic user of the product

What they really need is IMAP. Personally, I just like to use Gmail online for e-mail, but they do need IMAP support. Especially with the iPhone coming out.

I’m finding this fascinating - some people are suggesting having both - which I’d also support.

I can’t see that Gmail would stop the option to tag, but I would find it useful to be able to put things in folders too.

That’s why I like Thunderbird - I can have folders, but I can also have virtual folders - which are rather like tags, as something can be in many folders at the same time - but, I can also have the equivalent of Misc - which I can only create in Gmail by actively tagging things - whereas with Thunderbird, once something is in a folder, I can just see the remainder in the inbox.

For me, IF Gmail were to introduce an easy way to tag things that had no other tag automatically (if you want it), then it would be useful. Alternatively, if it had folders, then I could see what’s not in a particular category & find it quickly.

Yes, tagging is useful - most of the time, but there are things that it doesn’t quite work for (especially when you’re trying to set up filters to auto-tag/ auto archive things), and then I’d like something that addresses that problem.

If you think Google should use a traditional structured directory system instead of tags, please sign the online petition at: