Google may shut German users out of Gmail in response to new laws passed by the German Government that would force Google to maintain personally identifiable records for every German Gmail account.
Google Blogscoped reports that the effect of the law on Google is not clear but potentially it may force Google to start requiring a verifiable full address from every single German based Gmail user.
Google’s Peter Fleischer said that the law is odds to Google’s policy to offer anonymous email accounts: “Many users around the globe make use of this anonymity to defend themselves from spam, or government repression of free speech … If the web community won’t trust us with handling their data with great care, we’ll go down in no time”.
There’s got to be something ironic about a country in the European Union, the EU being the so-called champions of privacy, imposing laws like this. Perhaps our German readers can enlighten us some more in the comments.
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I hope they do shut it down, I don’t know why they’d want the liability or responsibility for storing all that personal information. And it’ll maybe point out the ridiculousness of the law a little.
Germans have been doing this for a long time. gmx.de - one of the biggest email systems, not only forces users to enter a legit address, they make you prove it and will shut if off if you can’t.
It probably has something to do with a) anally being able to track all citizens to keep “ordnung” and b) backwards paranoia “angst” about not letting too much secrecy go on in a misguided attempt at tranparency based on their (our) collective guilt of WWII. Don’t think I’m underestimating these as issues either.
not sure where my name went…
First Flickr censorship issues, now Gmail - next they pull Germany offline
Google should be applauded for trying to maintain the privacy of its customers!
Another typical no knowledge TC entry: German laws require that every ISP, and webmaster, keeps 2 years long (at least) logs of IPs.
I don’t think more needs to be said, flickr also knows the problem with German privacy laws. I love privacy, but also the protection German laws offers anyone in case of harassment and abuse should FINALLY be pointed out (yes, I’ve managed a Windows board in Germany, a little one nothing more than +5k uniques visitors daily, but large enough to be confronted with the daily dangers of trolling and much more).
Sorry, Duncan, no matter how much I like you, your blogs and your track of record, but there still are many things you whether need to learn, whether need to investigate more.
And if those local specifics aren’t known to you, please feel free to request. I’d help any fellow blogger any time. Especially bloggers I’ve learned much from.
No personal assault in this comment, just some tips.
Duncan just referred to an article in another blog which in turn refers to information from Heise.
@ franky, just because it’s a law doesn’t mean it’s logical, or right. One of my friends just had his gmx.de mail shut off b/c he was mailing everyone about germans perpetuating race wars. They would not reinstate it but eventually gave him a new mail because the old one was too inflammatory. That’s censorship, not maintaining privacy rights. Duncan is asking whether they’re saying that privacy is ok only if handled by the government? I don’t think so.
Germany’s laws regarding internet and web 2.0 are unfortunately not very well. One big issue that hits community-based web 2.0 sites is that the site owner is responsible for any comments made by anyone on his site. Think how this can threaten your web 2.0 business, you are a permanent target for dissuasions. There are many law firms that solely focus on such “Abmahnungen”. They have many possibilities: not having a correct imprint on your website and (since 2007) not providing a full-blown signature in all your business mails that states address, commercial register number and name of the CEO. The dissuasion is sent to anyone without such information saying that they would have an unfair advantage in competition… All this is just stupid.
FYI — I asked Till, a friend, German and Internet’r in Germany for some commentary… check out my post from this morning:
http://www.centernetworks.com/.....in-germany
orry, but I really don’t understand why Germany’s laws, laws made to protect the user, should be blamed.
Privacy?
I agree, but privacy and protection aren’t always acompatible. Just try to remember that Germany is much evolved in matters of privacy than the US. Germany actually is one of the privacy example countries.
Now that gets used againt them???
WTF???
So Google doesn’t want to comply with this German law but works with the Chinese government to censor search results? Without making any judgements on what’s right or wrong, I would say that Google’s sense of ethics seems to be variable. Apparently its actions are driven based upon on how important the market in question is. This is to be expected of corporations, however it is amusing with Google because it has always promoted itself as a “Do No Evil” company. My how quickly we forget.
Under those terms I am not sure I would want a gmail account that requires me to identify and prove my postal address. Gmail is good to have as an anonymous service. It is the underpinning of all good email communication online. If that law cam to Australia I would shut down my gmail account.
I’m actually curious to see how many germans have gone to their own government to protest this. I know the backlash on flickr lately was fairly widespread and I can’t imagine shutting off german gmail will get LESS attention, but what I didn’t see were many people doing the research to understand that this is mostly due to german laws and websites having a hard time complying.
I mean, by solving this issue on a site by site basis, you’re treating a symptom, not a disease.
thaumata - Germans are basically compliant on things like this. [Unless you're talking about Bavaria and it has to do w/ the catholic church.]
Alexander - I didn’t know that. That sucks about content responsibility.
Franky - frankly I disagree with you. I spend half my time in the US and half my time in Germany, and Germany can control a lot more b/c there are wayyyy fewer German speakers than English speakers, so German-only sites are for German speaking people, a much much smaller portion. I think Germans often go too far and sometimes ends up stifling innovation and annoying people.
Drama - I’d rather go up against Germany than China. China’s army is much bigger haha, (& so is the population = potential revenue). Much as I love Germany they are on the decline along with the rest of Europe.
Fuhr Merkel is running the EU right now aswell, god help us.
Hi i am German. I can’t realy believe Googles privacy concerns. I mean they are storing every single search and every email for lifetime. And i can’t see that this is necessary to provide us with better services.
The German Government ist the other thing. They ordered the ISPs/Telephone Companies to store every connection data for at least 6 Month. They can access everyones emails. And the Police can use malware to check your PC (well thats stopped at the moment, they realised that they eventually have to change our “Constitution” first).
Then there is a law that you have to authenticate users if you provide online porn or adult games, normally you go to one Postal Service (Post) and show your ID (Post ID). As a result Google even has to filter foreign adult sites, which are accessible without this authentications.
Can’t we kick Germany out of the EU for doing all that privacy-invasive crap?
What is going on right now in Germany got named with a nice term: STASI 2.0
Stasi is the former Staats Sicherheit (State Security) of former East Germany.
My opinion is that our Minister of interior - Wolfgang Schäuble - has a personal trauma from the past, when he was attacked by a man with a Smith & Wesson revolver and got shot 3 times. Ever since that time he is sitting in a wheelchair.
Of course he wants to prevent things like this but don`t put a man with a trauma in that position!
Why email SPAM is good?
Privacy… Yahoo reads your business email without premission. They are sickest theives I ever known.
I think Chinese Email lot better. Business patent protection, idea protection ,etc…
What the hell is wrong with entering your full details . I have no problems with entering my address as long as I know it wont be sold, passed on to any third party companies or used in anyway within contacting me first.
If somebody really wanted to find something about you no matter what ( bank account details , address , medical records etc ) you can with databases like experian and NHSNet.
Regardless of the questionable character of this law - I fully support it and other anti-terror measures, I find it funny that especially Google is concerned about the users privacy.
Goodbye Google. Somebody will fill the void.
Does anyone know if this is an exclusive to Germany law, if it’s the German implementation of EUs Dataretention directive?
सरकारें हर जगह एक सी होती हैं… चाहे भारत की हो या जर्मनी की! और क़ानून बनाने वाले नेता भी - चाहे वे बुश हों या मुश!
A verifiable address for each user should come in handy for Google’s plan to collect all information in the world.
What is announced and what is done is another pair of shoes but I am also excited about the future.
Some German users already posted how ridiculous the current system is and I am curious what happens next.
I also got a cease-and-desist warning sometime ago and I’m afraid that it all gets worse.
How does this help track terrorists at all anyway?
1. We had terrorists before e-mail! We caught them then, we can catch them now.
2. How many terrorists are dumb enough to chat in unencrypted e-mail on a Google account? Especially when Google combs through the e-mails for advertising purposes?
Germany is clearly undemocratic but with the state of the EU in general - its not suprising they are paving the way in terms of this constitution crap, I somehow doubt freedom of speech was included by Fuhr Merkel.
One more day with sad news about Europe. No wonder why we keep getting our asses kicked all the time.
> bob jones (all your contributions)
- Germany is clearly undemocratic??
- Fuhr Merkl
- Can’t we kick Germany out of the eu?
I am not sure what your agenda is but it is clearly off topic.
No it isn’t … democracy doens’t mean tracking communication, forming massive databases of names and communication.
Lets say Fuhr Merkel, clearly an extreme dictator, gets her way and this happens. Well lets also say a German citizen writes an e-mail saying Furh Merkel is a dictator, well now the German government has the e-mail and the author … hmm, I wonder how long until he ends up in Jail?
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My agenda is a freer internet and freer world, this woman serves only to make more power for herself.
I don’t care much what happens in Germany but thanks to the EU this mad woman can get this done here in the UK - and worse, instead of all my e-mails going to my government, they will go to Brussels - where they can track dissidents and throw them in Jail.
I give in - you persuaded me
Hey just imagine - google gets all of our snail mail addys (i bet they have them already) and then links them up with the good-for-nothing live map views.
Antje, I really don’t agree with the online privacy laws in Germany. Believe me, I don’t. They really are evil.
But this post required more knowledge IMNSHO.
Mark (#16), unless laws have changed since I left Germany 2 years ago, as webmaster you have to keep your server logs 2 years long (at least be prepared to hand them to court in the case of a subpoena, there are several precedents already of this).
Our (German) government is know for showing complete lack of knowledge when it comes to Internet laws. If Google would shut down that service for Germany, then go to Google.com instead of Google.de and get your Email account there. Same with sex sites: German law requires proof of legal age (18) before entering such sites.
Ever been to Italy? They will not allow you to surf in Internet Cafés unless you give them your passport/ID for their records! Thanks to Berlusconi - I think he wanted to make sure that there are no illegal actions in his country other than the ones HE does…
We all know that Google has been criticized for its privacy policies in the past… I hope this is not a ploy on their behalf to try and say to the world “we do respect privacy.” I’m sure that if the German Gov’t continued to insist and German Users still wanted gmail anyway that Google would stick around… Google may push back a little, but in the meanwhile, it will also make sure that users around the world know that they are trying defend themselves against the German gov’t…
Is this a marketing ploy? I don’t think it was intended as one… but, if the opportunity is there, why not?
@Bobjones
After your first posting here, I knew you are a Brit. Your postings indicate that you are one of those 95% of Brits, who never learned German and only see Germans on vacation (in Spain) or on the soccer pitch.
Irony on
It’s 2007 and it’s not the “Huns” fault, that you guys cannot win the soccer worldcup, have crooked teeth and cannot cook
Irony off
Well Britain is the freer than Germany, Italy and other nations in Old Europe, what do I care?
I care simply because thanks to the EU, these whackjobs have influence over me - they can push laws onto me, and I get a little testy when dictators try that.
To clarify in Britain I don’t need to hand over my identity to use the internet - ah, freedom.
As for learning German, if I was going to learn another language it most certainly would not be that, it would be Mandarin - China matters, Germany doesn’t.
@Bob Jones:
No sir, Britain is definetly worst in “Old Europe”. I just read that there are tv-channels broadcasting live from surveillance cameras. How free is that?
As for your fear of laws being pushed onto you … your country is one of the big old ones in Europe and has great influence over what becomes EU law. You are equally “pushing laws” onto other people … the majority likes the way it works and we look forward to greater unity in Europe, because that is the only possible way that can save us (U.S. included) from chinese domination at the middle of the century.
At least in one point you are right … learning Mandarin might prove more useful than learning German
lucky you that you live in a English speaking country and have to learn one language less than the rest of us 
Not very good idea to “stop” the Web. We’re breathing it now. And asphyxia isn’t quite good.
Oh, it is not a really important thing. We are going to have Orwell in some years, but it does not matter. It is all against terrorism…
Bob Jones:
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To clarify in Britain I don’t need to hand over my identity to use the internet
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No Bob, you don’t have to handover you identity, because your ISP sells your clickstream for you to Hitwise/Comscore …for about $10/month!
(Old) Europe’s privacy laws are way more strict than the UK’s old school laws.
Darn…do I hate people,who are ignorant and have no clou of what they are talking about.
If Google shuts down my Gmail account, I’ll stop using all Google products immediately.
Over 2000 innocent civilians were slaughtered by the chinese government in 1989 simply for wanting their country to be more democratic.
Ever since, the Chinese government has done a lot to erase that chapter from history, as well as other civil rights related events.
Today, china still heavily censors the internet. Almost a quarter of the people in our world are deprived of their history, deprived of free knowledge about the world they live in, deprived of the means to persue democracy and to better their society, all with the help of Google: an active partner in one of the greatest censorship projects humanity has ever known.
It is thanks to google, among others, that china is able to execute 10,000 (!) of it’s own citizens every year, without anyone revolting- because nobody knows.
Doublecheck me on this. Don’t take my word for it. read the full Human Rights Watch report at: http://www.hrw.org/reports/2006/china0806/ .
What I am trying to say is that Google is hardly an authority on freedom of any kind. What they say is irrelevant.
As for the german laws, well, history teaches us that such vast knowledge bases of personal information are eventually abused. Always.
Keep the internet private. It’s a cause worth fighting for. But be prepared- the greatest threat on free, private internet is not the German Government. It’s Google, Yahoo and Microsoft. Few years from now, these companies will know more about more people than any other government in history.
Privacy concerns…what does that say for sites like Xing, MySpace, Linkedin, Facebook, et al..
@BobJones
> As for learning German, if I was going to learn another language
You’re not.
It’s their own fault, no Googles problem
Hands down, google is not that sweet tech company in the valley! regardless of the law of the country, it’s an issue between 2 companies and not 2 countries. google could have settled that but they were arrogant. they have been arrogant many times in their acquisitions, their attitude, their product offering, orkut, myspace deal, skype deal,…
being pro google, the way Duncan is going about, is fading and possibly damaging techcrunch’s impartiality to the content.
I have a unique perspective in that I am half German and half my family resides in Germany whilst, I myself am British born (father born in Germany, mother English)
The EU has brought some very good laws to the table, especailly for workers in the UK (min. wage)
The 1998 privacy was also of benfit and preventing abuse of personal data and how its used (all out the window though with the new ID cards).
Interesting, this German law would appear to contradict that very law of privacy.
Even more interesting is the UK gov’t plans for ID cards built into the Passport service, which will hold far more detailed and invasive data, then the German Gov’t are requesting. Also, the UK Gov plans to share this data. Totally contradicts EU privacy laws and not just with the police, also banks and who knows what else?!
The UK has the most CCTV of any country. Everything we do is recorded, from the day we are born to the day we day, the only change is technology.
Personally I think every Country censors/big brother’s with one hand and screams privacy rights with the other. Its just a differen’t method for each country.
Its all part of the New World Order.
@Mike - What if your government is evil? What if you can’t protect your data from an evil, powerful government guy who’s after your ass for personal reasons? Here’s where privacy comes in.
Hi folks,
being the original author of the story mentioned I’m glad to follow the discussion here. One little correction anyway.
The original story was not published at heise.de. It originates from the German business weekly “WirtschaftsWoche”.
If anyone wants to read it (in German), you will find it here: http://www.wiwo.de/pswiwo/fn/w.....index.html
Best
Thomas
Sebbi, there are cameras and its a problem here, ofcourse, but I don’t use cameras for free speech and while you’ll never hear anybody admit it, these cameras are mostly privately owned - if a company wants to put a camera on its property, what right do I have to complain?
I don’t know what TV station you mean.
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No Bob, you don’t have to handover you identity, because your ISP sells your clickstream for you to Hitwise/Comscore …for about $10/month!”
I don’t know if that is true but if it is, I’d rather Hitwise, or Google or Microsoft have my personal details than the government … what a private company does with details I choose to give them isn’t a freedom problem, its a common sense problem.
There is a difference between Eric Schmidt knowing I dislike Tony Blair, from my e-mails or searches. and Tony Blair knowing it …