Pandora To Shut Out Non-U.S. Users Thursday Evening
Michael Arrington
70 comments »
If you live outside of the U.S. and enjoy listening to customized radio stations on Pandora, brace yourself for some bad news. The site will be shutting you out starting Thursday evening. Registered users who access the service from outside the U.S. received a warning email yesterday letting them know that this will be happening.
Pandora operates under Section 114 of the DMCA, which gives them a clear process for paying rights holders in the U.S. There is no international equivalent of the DMCA, and so to operate legally in other countries, Pandora must sign deals with rights holders directly. That means separate deals with labels and publishers for each song, an extremely difficult and time consuming task.
Pandora has always made it clear on the site that it is for U.S. users only, and requires a U.S. zip code for registration. That didn’t stop many international users from registering anyway, using “90210″ or another famous zip code to get access to the service. Now, with IP-based filtering, users will be forced to go through proxy servers or other complicated mechanisms for getting to the music.
I spoke with CTO Tom Conrad this evening about the change. He says Pandora has been working on international rights deals for nearly two years now, and they hope to have enough deals done in the UK and Canada to launch in those countries soon. Other markets will take longer, he says.
The email sent to users is below.
This isn’t the only bad news recently for Pandora. Along with other Internet radio companies, they have also been fighting the RIAA over revisions to the fee structure they must pay for playing music online. The rates they pay are significantly more than satellite providers pay, and terrestrial radio stations pay nothing to play music. Two very brave congressmen, Representatives Jay Inslee (D-WA) and Donald Manzullo (R-IL), have proposed legislation that would require Internet radio startups to pay no more than satellite providers, which should allow many Internet radio startups to stay in business. Read more about the legislation on the Pandora blog and SaveNetRadio.
We’ve covered Pandora since their launch in the summer of 2005. Our coverage is here.
This is also the case for Singaporean stations
Really a pitty, and hopefully it won’t affect Pandora’s business. I imagine it’ll be hard though, considering that only 47.4% (Alexa’s data) of their users/listeners come from the US. That’s basically leaving half of their audience out.
I can’t even begin to say what a disappointing outcome this is for us. We’ll continue to work with music rights holders with the goal of making Pandora a truly global service.
To those that have listened from outside the US, we thank you for your support and we’ll look forward to the day when we can restore access — we’ll take good care of your stations in the meantime.
Tom
CTO @ Pandora
With all of these technicalities and legal hurdles, the biggest losers ultimately turn out to be the Artists
That’s interesting. One common comment about restrictive US policies regarding net radio is.. “move your station to [some weird country here]“. I guess I, along with many others who make these suggestions, assumed you only had to really worry about rights issues in the country of transmission.
I find it hard to believe that, say, the BPI (British Phonographic Industry) has threatened Pandora in any way, but that even if they do.. what can they do about it? (Probably something, I imagine..)
RIAA just killed Pandora…
I used the service at my workplace (Budapest, Hungary), because this way I did not have to bring in my mp3 collection, managing the playlists etc. just listened to the music. Now it’s over…
i have read about this fee increase for internet broadcasters being mentioned a few times now. can someone comment on the reasoning behind the premium the riaa is looking to charge internet radio broadcasters?
Come on guys…
put ur thinking hats on
come up with some US based proxy sites that allow flash,JS etc so that our international brethren could make use of these to access pandora and ultimately be able to stick a thumb up RIAA’s cute ass
important to reach out to your congressman/congresswoman to let them know that internet radio should not be discriminated against. something on par with satellite or broadcast would be fair. http://www.savenetradio.org is a good place to be heard by the government on this. it will take congressional action to make this change or the US is next. make a call to your local congressional office and tell them you care.. tell your friends.
get up, stand up, don’t give up the fight (bob marley).
I’m not sure why they are making such a big deal out of this; they could sign up Canada in a jiffy just by agreeing to SOCAN fees for the portion of their audience that is here. I can’t imagine this taking more than a few phone calls and some mail exchanges.
http://www.socan.ca/jsp/en/index.jsp?homepage=2
This is the start of it now, Pandora will fall and soon too will the rest of them which is a bloody shame. Pandora is a great service internationally and I hope it finds a way to fight back.
Louis-Eric:
SOCAN is a society of music composers and “publishers” — which is the name given to the folks that own the composition, but not the specific recordings. SOCAN is analogous to ASCAP, BMI, and ASCAP in the U.S.
You are right that generally it is easier to put together arrangements with music publishers than it is to put together agreements with the entities that own the rights for the “mechanical” recording of a performance. Sadly where Internet radio is concerned you have to have a license from both the publisher (the folks that wrote the song) and the recoding company (the labels). SOCAN only gives you the former. Most of the challenges for international licensing are around the latter. We’ll keep at it.
Tom
CTO @ Pandora
I received the same e-mail today. I’m pretty bummed out about it. I’m in the US military stationed in Japan right now and I love using Pandora. I’ve discovered a lot of music and artists from it.
For Tom @ Pandora…thanks for your great service! I don’t know if you read all the e-mail you get at the pandora-support address, but I sent a reply.
Mike
Pandora is still working for me (Germany, Europe)…
Oh well…..www.last.fm I gooooooo!!!!
maybe someone can create a “pandora” product for indy artists
This is a real shame - although i haven’t recieved that email yet and still works for me in the UK! Another example of how outdated localised rights agreements are in todays world
in France, there is an organism called SACEM who holds all the rights for artists and publishers, and from whom internet radio can license from. I am not sure what would be wrong with licensing from them…
Come on guys…
put ur thinking hats on
come up with some US based proxy sites that allow flash,JS etc so that our international brethren could make use of these to access pandora and ultimately be able to stick a thumb up RIAA’s cute ass
—————–Update to my previous comment
http://www.hidemyass.com/ ——-this seems to be working.
mind u, there arent many proxy sites out there that dont messup with flash or JS
so it’s happening. i was wondering why pandora can stream to singapore if the new napster can’t. so it’s back to radio then.
is last.FM affected?
(hey there’re fellow singaporeans who are techcrunch readers and listens to pandora! hello there!)
I hate this. Lots and lots of web services are US-only.
Attention all International users:
no worries guys,
just go to pandora using one of the many sites that hide your I.P.
i recommend http://www.iphide.com your ip seems as if your from the states, should work fine.
Enjoy.
why don’t they just move it to switzerland, the company will pay less tax and the RIAA won’t be able to access any data
Okay, looks like europe has its own service called ** MUSICOVERY ** right here http://www.musicovery.com/
This is pandora with even a better/more intutive interface and its working even for us-citizens. Europe welcomes the U.S. to hear our rockin’ cool web-radio-stations. :))
This is getting so out of hand. Pandora is such a fantastic product and does so much to introduce new music/artists to listeners that might never have had the opportunity to be exposed to. Hopefully there is a work around for our international friends. The music industry sure makes it difficult to be honest. What’s next? Higher royalties for internet radio? Shutting down tab sites?….oh yea, that’s already happening also.
Pandora has done so many things right. I can’t help but think that this move is for the best for most Pandora users, in the long run. I would rather have some pandora for some users, than no pandora for any users (in the case it gets shut down by legal action, for instance). It is far too valuable a service & technology to get greedy about.
That said, the ease of which Pandora makes buying the music they play should be something the labels/artists/producers jump all over– Pandora makes the “hear a song, buy the song” process so much easier than anywhere else. These companies should be PAYING Pandora for the extra business, not vice versa.
Here’s hoping that everyone who wants to listen will be able to.
Blogmusik released their SmartPlaylist just in time - I guess it’ll have to do for now.
Musicovery is repetitive and annoying.
Well, how is this different from NBC, FOX, MTV and co. that broadcasts videos only for US residents ? They don’t care about European visitors… they never do/did.
This really sucks.
Here we have yet another example of how out-moded licensing traditions and related laws kill something that really has value, that has been painstakingly built over the past few years, and that is helping everyone to sell more music online! I think that if the music industry does not start solving these ancient licensing problems ASAP they shouldn’t be surprised why everyone is serving their music needs via totally unlicensed sources that never ever go nearly as far as Pandora has to become legal. I mean, come on, how many years have you guys had to give a license to Pandora??? Maybe the European Commission should start thinking about FINES for PROs (Performing Rights Organizations) for not making reasonable licensing deals available? How about a penalty for ‘hampering the growth of new business’ or for sitting on your rear doing nothing while everyone else is busting their butts trying to reinvent the music business?
It almost seems like, today, a company that tries to do the right thing from the start gets punished at every turn while those that don’t even bother with getting any of the rights, period (no… not listing examples here;) are the ones that a) get funded with 10s of millions of dollars b) sell their company for hundreds of millions of dollars, and get to do as they please while the music industry is mutely standing by (since they never bother to check out the new stuff until someone alerts them, not asking for a license would be the safe way to start, right…?) With their outdated licensing structures and seriously backwards business processes most of the music industry is, imho, actually encouraging people to completely ignore the rules if they want to get anywhere, anytime soon. Just like DRM is actually promoting piracy (by punishing legally minded users and giving them less value for more money), these webcasting regulations are forcing companies into non-compliance due to the lack of reasonable options.
If this isn’t bizarre, I don’t know what is! Here is my call to action for the music rights organizations around the world, the PPL / GVL, BUMA, GEMA, STIM, SESAC and SOCAN: get moving to license Pandora within 30 days - you’ve already had 2 years to do it! http://www.gerdleonhard.net
Ouch, Tim is a really nice guy and has been sinking blood sweat and tears into Pandora (aka savage beast) for literally years of his life. To get this far then have things outside one’s control that seem so outmoded be a setback stinks. Hopefully a few backers will place a few strategic lawsuits and we can all move into the 21st century.
This sucks…I wasn’t a big fan of Pandora (I prefer Launch or even http://www.musicovery.com), but the music industry is putting the final nails in its own coffin (had to get my own neat catchphrase in!). I think I’m done buying CDs now, this is the straw that broke the camel’s back (!).
Support encrypted file sharing: http://www.gigatribe.com
a sad development / for the company and the users /
and for once its not the company’s fault
RIAA killed the radio star…
What’s really pathetic is that once again, the RIAA is taking an approach that ultimately hurts them; if internet radio goes away, it will only increase p2p. It’s about access. We can still turn this around - go to Save Radio.
Bah! Yet another example of how the music companies are killing themselves. I just wish they’d understand how much more money they can make if they start their customers as valued allies and not the enemy.
GJ
http://www.60in3.com
Good luck with your battle Tim. You have many supporters.
The real issue is… Can Pandora sell enough advertising in the international marketplace to cover it’s current costs?
What I can say, very sad….I love pandora, but for those who can read Chinese, here is a good alternative steaming out somewhere from China, called YOBO…i like the name btw…besides offering a pandora clone, it has an interesting “music personality test”, which i found really cool - there got to be some relationship between one’s music taste and personality. Hope it will offer English version soon..KG
http://www.yobo.com
1) STOP BLAMING THE RIAA. It only has power in the US. The RIAA’s brethren in other countries are to blame.
2) Using most IP-camouflaging or poxy services will almost certainly result in those services being banned by Pandora (assuming they mean to enforce this policy).
3) Companies just can’t up and move to another country. It costs a lot of money to do so, AND that doesn’t even take into account what their employees would have to do.
4) Pandora was created for US listeners. Stop blaming the US when the problem is YOUR COUNTRY’S failure to come up with enough music worth listening to. It’s YOUR FAULT that your country sucks. It’s YOUR FAULT that you elected the politicians who limit your artistic practices.
If you are a US citizen and travel overseas, are you out of luck when you travel then? (Asking, not stating)
Hey Tom,
I think you are mistaken, SoundExchange has reciprocal Webcasting Agreements with all members of IFPI who represents the recording industry worldwide with some 1400 members in over 70 countries and affiliated industry associations in 48 countries.
Please check out this press release from Soundexchange:
http://www.soundexchange.com/n.....elease.pdf
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Thursday, October 14, 2004
Washington, D.C. SoundExchange signed the International Federation of the Phonographic Industry’s (IFPI) international webcasting agreement today in Warsaw, Poland, at the annual IFPI Performance Rights Committee meeting. This agreement will allow DMCA-compliant webcasters and simulcasters to stream their music based on a single “one-stop” license. These digital music services will now have a much more simplified process that saves them the labor of having to secure licenses from many different national licensing organizations.
etc.
Jonathan,
As much as we would love a system like the one that’s described in the SoundExchange Oct 2004 press release you site, the system was never implemented. If such a “one stop” license existed, we’d certainly participate.
Tom
CTO @ Pandora
A lot of rights bodies have, I believe, taken the view that whilst they didn’t have a blanket licence on offer in their country, they couldn’t very well tell people to stop (or “get a licence”). As these rights bodies start to make licences available they now feel in a position to tell international streaming companies to get the licence. In the UK PPL have only just got the mandate from the labels to offer an “interactive” blanket licence - which is why Pandora has been doing label by label deals.
The other issue is that sub-licencing of recordings mean that one company doesn’t technically have the rights to a particular recording all over the world! It can’t offer the rights worldwide even if it wanted to, in some cases.
Tom,
There is something very fishy going on at soundexchange then. It clearly states in that release that they signED the agreement, it is all past tense, a done deal.
What is more I bet you have been forwarding SoundExchange royalties for all music streamed - even when the listener is in other countries - what have they actually been doing with those funds?
I read with interest the other day that Soundexchange can’t find thousands of artists… are they now saying they can’t find countries as well?
http://digg.com/music/SoundExc.....and_get_it
Come off it - all they need to do is include a column in their reports for the country that the listener was based in and it’s all done…
>> There is something very fishy going on at soundexchange then.
All I know is that the position of Soundexchange and IFPI is crystal clear on all of this in 2007. You can’t pay SoundExchange for listeners outside of the US and expect them to distribute royalties to the correct rights holders abroad. We’ve of course discussed all of this at length with both organizations.
Tom
CTO @ Pandora
I’d try http://www.personalvpn.com as it provides a U.S. IP address as well as encrypts all your data (not just browser-based) for 39.99 USD a year. Proxies can be slow and limited.
When will the RIAA be sued for racketeering???
I expect websites such as http://www.last.fm and http://www.thefilter.com to be doing well out of this, but how long before the RIAA gets them too?
They want us all listening to vinyl don’t they?
Still seems to be working, even here in London 90210…
@David Dalka:
Yes that’s right. US citizen traveling overseas are SOL. Also, the numerous US military personnel and government employees and contractors are affected by this as well, even though they are subject to US laws.
I listened to Pandora every day at work on a US military installation. Now I am no longer able to.
So far it’s still working here in my part of Canada (West Coast), thank the Interweb Gods!
Jorge (comment 38), you are daft, and your comments show an incredible level of arrogance. I know it’s not typical of Americans, but it doesn’t help your reputation any!
(1) Pandora, while being created BY an American, wasn’t created FOR Americans only - and I think you’re insulting the fine folks behind Pandora’s genius by saying so, not to mention those of us “foreign devils” who enjoy listening to it. Or are you under some delusion that all the music streamed by Pandora is from American artists? Sure, their website says you have to be in the US to listen to the service, but I really don’t think they intended it to be for Americans only, or they wouldn’t be working on deals with other rights-holders.
(2) Companies can (and do) up and move to another country every day. Some move TO the States, some move AWAY. A business like Pandora can relocate to a less draconian climate in a (virtual) heartbeat, since they are server-based. FedEx some hard drives to the UK or Canada (or Sweden, maybe?) and you can be streaming from there in a few days. Not ideal, I know. But it’s not like trying to relocate a corporation like General Motors.
(3) There’s that wonderful arrogance that has made America the international leader it is today. The United States has achieved cultural dominance not by being better, but by being pushier. American artists have produced no more and no less great works than any other nationality has (per capita, of course). America’s only strength lies in its marketing abilities; Americans more than almost anyone else turn their artists into heroes, generating huge amounts of publicity and attention around them (the “American Idol” effect). It has little to do with our governments, or how much our countries “suck”. In fact, most countries have more sensible IP laws than the US does (all hail the DMCA!), which means better compensation for artists, better distribution channels for consumers, and less government meddling. Our politicians don’t limit our artistic practises as much as yours - for proof of that one only need look at the thuglike tactics of your Congress-approved goons in the RIAA and MPAA. Hey, but we’re not getting our asses sued off us for downloading music here in Canada, ok?
(4) I am sorry about Céline Dion. It’s not my fault, but I am going to apologise anyhow, since that is the Canadian Way.
This just is plain super sewage suck.
I like americans, got a few good friends who are american. But, here in the Netherlands we have a saying that we like to prevent “American situations” meaning that we want to prevent situatations where people think only about the short term. Or stop thinking at all.
I liked Pandora, a lot. I bought 3 albums because of Pandora. Now those where Indy albums, so the Big Evil Record Labels TM maybe won’t like that, but I also buy music from the BERL TM. I visit concerts and the like. Now, with Pandora gone, I lost another legal avenue to enjoy music. Guess who is just gone down another few notches in my book.
Oh, and by the way, apology accepted. She is not that bad, I mean have you listenend to some of the stuff us Dutchies consider good taste?
This really sucks. We loved Pandora at the office! Hope you guys can work something out.
This is a hard blow for us music lovers. Pandora is such a great source of music . I have made so many new musical discoveries over the time I had the luxury of enjoying Pandora. So, for me it is truly a sad event …