YouTube Folds, Turkey Lifts Ban

March 10th, 2007 at 2:19 am

WTF you mean they should have stood their ground ass…those videos were offensive to a certain ethnic group and removal was not an option…not to mention they were agains YouTube’s TOS.

March 10th, 2007 at 2:52 am

I wonder if other video sharing sites suffer from the same pressures…

March 10th, 2007 at 3:08 am

yea. next will ban gay people videos, then straight love and then south park, cause “it’s offensive”. and then we will go back at .txt

March 10th, 2007 at 3:27 am

Glad they lifted the ban.

I couldn’t imagine being banned from some sites like folks in other countries.

March 10th, 2007 at 3:47 am

Well, though this is a win,if governments go ban happy there might be a problem.

March 10th, 2007 at 4:41 am

Speaking as a Turk, I thought the court order was inane. Freedom of speech is really not as limited in Turkey as some people might believe. I think that this was a case of a poor judgement on the court’s side. The sedition law is, as I see it, designed to combat theocrats, not racist teenagers.

I am hopeful that the humiliation that cases like this bring will spark a reform in the law.

March 10th, 2007 at 4:59 am

Why did you remove the post where you described all ways to download a video from you tube? ..I think you said you don’t want you to be put in google PR’s black list..so you have priority to dollars over your moral values (free speech ??!!) …youtube is doing same..why should they keep those few or one video in order to lose 72 million turks ?

March 10th, 2007 at 5:13 am

“When videos are retarded, only retards will have videos”

March 10th, 2007 at 5:43 am

They should have let the ban stand … why does Turkey get to decide what I can and can’t view?

March 10th, 2007 at 6:17 am

We have to respect cultural differences. What is acceptable in the US may not be ok elsewhere.

It’s not ok to offend a single person let alone an entire group or country…good move YouTube…

March 10th, 2007 at 6:54 am

You Tube did best in the interest of people of two nations. Freedom of speech, so many times (not always) becomes a lame excuse for things which do more harm than good. I am sure those videos would have done more bad than good.

March 10th, 2007 at 6:57 am

MA, with all due respect, I think you’re mixing up two disparate issues here.

The first issue is whether you subscribe to Milton Friedman’s shareholder theory, which states a company should act solely to maximize profits for their shareholders, or to Edward Freeman’s stakeholder theory, which states a company should act to balancing the interests of all its stakeholders (including customers, citizens of governments where they provide services, etc.).

Most people in capitalist America subscribe to Mr. Friedman’s theory, whereas more socialist-leaning countries in Europe are more likely to side with Mr. Freeman.

In your post, it’s ambiguous which side of that argument you’re on.

The second question, assuming you subscribe to the shareholder theory (I’ll go out on a limb here) is what move will most benefit YT shareholders in the long-term.

Here, I agree with your point, and i’ll take the liberty of paraphrasing you if I may - that while YT may have appeased the Turkish government in the short-term, and thus reinstituted their 7th largest audience, the costs of waging FOS battles going forward could easily outweigh any short-term benefits they’ve achieved with this move.

March 10th, 2007 at 7:08 am

I can’t believe what these people do, why they make compromises? It’s terrible!

March 10th, 2007 at 7:23 am

mike, please don’t try to get political, your clear lack of understanding of global issues is so evident in a mere two paragraph post. Stick to trying to give us tech news, without your personal bias.

March 10th, 2007 at 7:49 am

It’s all about the money, the YouTube business bods sat down to decide which option would bring in the most money, remove the video to get the ban lifted and get the Turkish peeps back on line or keep the video and hope the ban gets lifted eventually anyway.
Don’t try to bring politics or ethics into it - that’s bound to start arguments and you’re over complicating a simple financial decision.
It was the same with Google in China.

March 10th, 2007 at 8:10 am

“We have to respect cultural differences. What is acceptable in the US may not be ok elsewhere.”

Um, no we don’t. I have absolutely no respect for some third-world country’s complaints about how their founder was called gay on a website.

I would suggest the government of Turkey and its apologists on this forum suck it up and stop getting their panties in a bunch every time Turkey is “insulted.”

March 10th, 2007 at 8:18 am

Turkey should not be allowed to join the European Union as long as it does stuff like this. A vast majority of EU citizens do not want Turkey to become a member — many of them are prejudiced against Muslims. But Turkey is losing the support of the more progressive citizens precisely because it continues to repress freedom of expression.

March 10th, 2007 at 8:25 am

Well, the turkey government and the turkey courts are 70% ultra nationalistic - this is why journalists, christs and kurds are under extreme pressure in the turkey. The Turkey is fighting a war to their own people and is arresting and torturing critics. In the last decade they killed some tenthousend kurds… This is a FACT. And this incident is just one more reason why they will never ever get into the EU.

March 10th, 2007 at 8:50 am

This is hardly the first such case that has come up. India has taken several such steps already:
1) Blocked access to blogger from India
2) Ordered a removal of You Tube video mocking Gandhi in bad taste
3) Ordered obfuscation of Google Maps of sensitive Indian defense establishments
4) Numerous Orkut altercations

Mike, before you make statements to the one similar in your last para, you need to be able to relate to the cultural mindset of the other community. What you consider freedom of press here may not be acceptable in another country. What you consider normal / entertaining may be outright offensive in some other country. While I havent seen those videos in question myself, I wont be able to relate to it anyways (the angst of Turkish govt.)

If an MNC like Google wants to expand internationally, it has to be mindful of such intricasies and has to abide by them. Else, they would face a huge uphill battle in establishing a presence in that country.

I had expected a much more mature take from you about such an issue. What can I say, I’m disappointed.

March 10th, 2007 at 9:21 am

“Mike, before you make statements to the one similar in your last para, you need to be able to relate to the cultural mindset of the other community. What you consider freedom of press here may not be acceptable in another country. What you consider normal / entertaining may be outright offensive in some other country.”

Totally agreed - in Sudan YouTube might feature a how-to video on female genital mutilation, or in Afghanistan maybe a hilarious video compilation of the stoning of rape victims! It’s really all about your cultural mindset; there’s really no place for the “cultural discrimination” and “value judgments” taking place here.

March 10th, 2007 at 9:30 am

I agree with Robert it’s all about choices if there is soemthing that i dont want to do then i should not do it, same should be the way with the you tube videos.

March 10th, 2007 at 9:48 am

This sets a terrible precedent for YouTube, who should have stood their ground. The original videos were sophomoric jabs at Turkey from Greeks, none of which should have led to a ban in the first place. For YouTube to agree to remove the videos shows that they’ll be soft on these issues in the future, and it will lead to a never ending series of headaches for the company. This is also yet another blow to freedom of speech in Turkey.

Hi Michael,

While this may set some sort of short term precedent for YouTube that looks like it’s the manner in which it may behave when faced with issues such as these for eternity, I think we all need to take a look at the larger picture; the Internet as a democratizer, cultural influences of other countries and the unintended consequences. Learning, perhaps a little, from the past and considering our actions in the future with regards to how we’ll behave with a very potent ambassador - the Internet.

I can remember, for years, listening to critics hammer our US government, US private business; manufacturing, services, media etc, about the manner in which we seem to export US culture to foreign lands (and so it should also be said that it was just as much imported by the citizens of those foreign lands) so much so that many of these foreign governments would in turn blame the problems of their countries’ lack of economic growth and poverty of its citizenry on the US government AND US corporations importing their “hegemony” with no regard for the disruption to the local laws and traditions and respects - their culture. “It is the sinful western culture that you gobble up that is rotting us all from the inside out. It’s the US, gov’t and businesses that are the reason for our decay, poverty and third world status. You must rebel against this bad influence that is destroying us all.”

Eventually, these people really start believing this, yet they’re helpless to do anything for them self because their government is actually the problem as it relates to the rather mean economic station of the local citizenry due to their own governments raping the treasury. Meanwhile, our government continues to look the other way with regards to the transgressions of these governments among their own populi as the lesser of two evils because some the of locals have formed their own radical resistance groups that grew rapidly based on the theme the ‘Americans and our government are in bed together and we must destroy both’.

All the while we here in the US think we must try more than ever to exert even more of our democratic influence and way of life to these countries, however subversive and disrespectful it may appear, in order to bring about change to these regions only to find out that this is actually exacerbating the problem.

If we observe different paths traveled by different countries that found themselves in these situations you find down the end of one path, North Korea which chose to wall itself off physically and technologically from the world thwarting both foreign influences and domestic uprising. In the Middle East the entire region walks a tightrope and to maintain a balance with the radical elements hanging on one end of the bar and the western democratic influences hanging on the other end those governments are forced to operate in what could best be described as a two-faced person. Eventually those types of people are found out for what they really are and dealt with by the opposing parties involved. I don’t know how this play out in the end. Sometimes I wonder if we’re not the tightrope walker ourselves.

What might be learned from this though, is our intentions, while good, of spreading democracy and freedoms in the manner and the pace in which we think they should be experienced and adopted around the world in any way, shape or form has been a factor in the circumstances that the world and the US finds itself in today. I’m not saying we’re wrong to try and extend freedoms to the oppressed around the world. It’s the manner in which and the pace we expect others to adopt that has lead to these circumstances.

No question about it.

We (the US and our freedoms and culture) can be a little too much at once for these countries trying to move towards a more open and free society and we’d be wise to learn from this which brings around to the Turkey and YouTube spat.

YouTube has done the right thing in this circumstance. If YouTube insisted on not pulling the offending clips Turkey just keeps the ban in place and goes on to explain to their people that it’s just another offense to the Middle East culture from the West as has been the case over most of the last 6 decades. More fuel for the same fire. The Internet is dangerous and subversive and it must be controlled (like the Chinese government does) because these western companies simply will not remove a piece of content that is deemed offensive to the local culture by some persons in positions of authority and perhaps a good deal of the local citizenry. China is a path that more and more countries could travel down if we do not honor some of these requests such as this one with YouTube and Turkey.

I think YouTube is wise to realize that it is only YouTube when it comes to the vastness of the Internet and it’s capabilities at this early stage of adoption around the world and that it’s not big enough to take on governments at this stage. At this stage, the most effective it can be is to let it be known that your government, Turkey in this case, has decided to block access to YouTube. That’s the kind of government you have. They do not want you to be able to question them or think any differently about them. Citizens of this country (Turkey) are not capable of dealing with material which we deem may not be suitable for you. You are not equipped for this.

Let that play on them, over and over again as each of these occurrences comes about. At the same time your able to keep user adoption growing because they can access YouTube. Eventually they become dependent on it and then when they block access again and again the people will realize that the unjust influence in their lives are their own quasi-elected or self-appointed state officials and the US is not in cahoots with them when they’ve finally had enough of the various forms of oppression.

I know we all want the Internet to spread democracy and freedom throughout just as fast as web page can be loaded but, that’s not realistic, we’ve tried these tactics in the past and I think we’d all be wise to learn a little from the past. If we don’t we’ll have a bunch a countries blocking access and filtering the Internet like China does today.

The best weapon at this point in the game is to let it be known that a government(s) blocks or filters access to the Internet or certain types of content and continue to grow. We lack patience in this country as we’ve come to expect everything almost instantly so this won’t be easy for us to take this longer term view. If, however, we fail act with the patience that YouTube is displaying and much like Google is in China by placing messages informing the Chinese Google.cn users that results have been filtered or blocked the Internet may never get off the ground in the places where it can do the most good. As a result the more and more countries could wind up looking like China and North Korea.

March 10th, 2007 at 10:45 am

Pathetic. Do no evil (unless resisting evil requires a spinal cord).

March 10th, 2007 at 10:49 am

This saddens me because my wire is a Turkey. What happened to freedom?

March 10th, 2007 at 11:32 am

the greater realm of this story is not about youtube, technology, petty amateur online video wars or whatever

it all boils down to traditional 2nd and 3rd world government dictatorships controlling it’s people

March 10th, 2007 at 12:27 pm

Glad US citizens didn’t make so much fuzz about Janet Jacksons breast accident.

I agree, if you don’t want to watch it than don’t if you do than do.

Wim

March 10th, 2007 at 3:25 pm

Uh.. Ediz? Freedom of Speech= anything
Freedom of Speach does not equal anything - insults

Turkey needs to lighten up and take a joke once in awhile, stop being so reactionary.

By the way, as an American living in Istanbul, take a stab all you want at George Washington or any other American - I don’t care, I can handle it, I’m mature. You know what that is called? - Your opinion.

Opinions are ok. With freedom of expression, we are supposed to be able to argue and debate rationally, and if I don’t like it - who cares?

March 10th, 2007 at 5:58 pm

It just goes to show, youtube and google have absolutely no scruples and will always sell out just to make a few more bucks. No amount of money is ever enough for these folks.

You can’t knuckle under to bullies. Ever.

March 10th, 2007 at 11:31 pm

istanbulexpat.. Turkish people have some concept called “Honor”, maybe you don’t understand it… or never heard of it. and maybe this explains why it’s ok for you for people to curse at George Washington, but Turkish people simply can’t take a curse against Ataturk, who is the founding father of Turkey. For the Greeks it’s the same. And they probably won’t say anything about George Washington, assuming that you have respect for him.

I personally find it shameful that you don’t care about George Washington… and that you’d be ok with people cursing at him.

I also have a hard time understanding how a person who has such a skewed perspective on these abstract things can have an opinion on freedom of expression?

March 11th, 2007 at 3:24 am

Stambouliote - I respect your right to express yourself openly - as you just did. Congratulations. You just voiced your opinion and supported my point.

Now, just imagine that I had to power to put you in jail for what you just said. Do you feel any better? Honor? My opinion (and freedom) allows me to laugh in anyone’s face - that is honor! I’m honored that George Washington and others stood up for these rights - yes it is true. But this honor didn’t come from years of conditioning that GW was the “founding father”.

“a person who has such a skewed perspective on these abstract things can have an opinion on freedom of expression” Kind of an ironic statement coming from someone who hates freedom of expression yet still expresses himself. In my opinion, if you don’t like it, just look the other way

The fact that you are trying to insult me just proves the hypocracy and makes me laugh. That’s my right. By the way - this is called an arguement, a debate - we are two reasonably prudent individuals just trying to have our say. Freedom of expression allows us to be civilized, if we do not have it, we fight to survive.

March 11th, 2007 at 3:32 am

Cihan that just makes no sense, can I pay to see the Turk-bashing video somehow? I’ve never seen the meanings of the word ‘free’ so mashed into oblivion.

It’s Google’s site, they can do what they want. But the defense that it offended a bunch of people makes ZERO difference to me. It’s a voluntarily viewed video to begin with, for crying out loud. These people are simply looking to be offended. And if a society can’t keep from setting itself on fire when someone has a laugh at them, they shouldn’t be in the 21st century, much less on the Internet. Just turn it off.

Freedom of speech is not a part of a culture. It is a right every person has, and it’s not given by government. Some governments do act to destroy that right, but that doesn’t change the fact that it is an inalienable human right. A culture cannot be correct in forcibly restricting speech– period. That they do does not mean people that respect freedom have to respect or acquiesce or bow to their mistakes.

And just on a personal level, if your emotions are decided by what other people do or say, and you go searching out material that is offensive to you, you’re just plain pathetic. You have no control over your own life and have zero business giving advice to others.

March 11th, 2007 at 4:38 am

youTube aka Google have put money before anything else. Business decisions are unfortunately ultimately driven by the bottom line.

Jumping into the political debate…..I am an Indian and yes I was deeply insulted when the Gandhi video was posted on the Internet. For me personally it was even more hurtful because I follow Buddhist principles and Gandhi was an ambassador for these principles.

But would I ban the website which hosted the video or prosecute the people who created it? No I would not. Gandhi himself fought for human rights and free speech. If he were around today I think he would be disappointed that we have suppressed free speech.

Also many people on this forum have used the phrase “freedom of speech” without understanding what it means. Did you ever think “Freedom” from what? “Freedom of speech” by its definition allows people to voice opinions which will offend/insult others. If you were always voicing opinions which never offended anyone you would never need “freedom of speech” as no one would stop you (or care as you would be irrelevant). That is exactly why you need ‘freedom’ from prosecution or censorship.

And like many things in else in life “freedom of speech” has a flip side. It cuts both ways. It allows you to voice your opinion about others but also allows others to voice their opinion about you. And yes it may insult you as well. But without it you cannot have a civilized society. In a civilized society people don’t suppress or kill each other, rather they debate with each other. And if you can’t take ‘it’ you have no right giving ‘it’ (or calling yourself a free society).

Oh… and by the way… you are free to reply to my post and disagree with my opinion or even insult me. I promise I will not ban you from the Internet or censor you or put you in jail.

March 11th, 2007 at 8:17 am

What happened to the Universal Declaration of human Rigths ?, is there a freedom of speech in Turkey OR online ?.

youtube video should be available to anyone regardless of color, political idealogy,sex,religion,race , culture etc.

March 11th, 2007 at 3:52 pm

Like it or not, the only thing on earth that matters for Google is your click on an ad. End of story.

March 12th, 2007 at 4:55 am

you meant caves or capitulates…”folds” connotes more of an organizational demise.

March 12th, 2007 at 8:51 am

Google should add an asterisk to their ‘do no evil’ motto to a more qualified statement cooked up by their lawyers- one that states the importance of profits and enriching shareholders.

March 12th, 2007 at 2:11 pm

lol…either way, I’d rather use http://www.Cavenger.com instead of youtube

March 13th, 2007 at 1:43 am

How about this: if you don’t like what those 3rd world countries do…like gasp…curtailing speech (but I somehow remember an Asian-American schoolboy got investigated by the FBI for joking about GWB)…stay away from their business instead of bitching on a tech blog.

March 18th, 2007 at 10:20 pm

The regular citizenry can handle the humour, governments can’t. Having just said that all companies operating in foreign countries must abide by the rules and regulations of that host country, however stifling and intrusive and obtrusive they might appear to be. The World Courts is the place ( no matter the lop-sidedness of justice in that system) to take up the cause of “free speech” and have it apply to everyone no matter the risks in doing so. Or how righteous is the cause itself for the individual freedom.

March 26th, 2007 at 4:23 am

The internet is here to provide freedom of speech and freedom of information.
Removing videos which are not allowed in turkey but everywhere else is like saying “we allow islam to make the rules worldwide”

April 9th, 2007 at 2:52 am

cool blog!