Google.cn was never been a hit in China — it pales in comparison to some of the other mainstream search sites that already had anchored itself long before Google launched its cn counterpart.

From our eyes a censor on the web at a national level is absurd and unheard of, which it should be. Saying that it was a ‘net-negative’ seems indicative of ‘negative profits’ for the Google.cn venture. A ‘evil-country’ doesn’t seem to make sense either, you don’t stop doing business with a foreign country because it is ‘evil’. It sure didn’t stop the export of oil from Iraq when it was labeled as the ‘axis-of-evil’.

Google made a mistake to dip their toes into china — so what?

I think if Google was smart they’d say “We’ve looked back at the decision and we regret it on principle” that would be a good thing. But to say that they regret it only because they came out behind financially makes them look sort of shallow. At least their being honest though.

Well at least we know how they feel. I guess they could of lied about it.

Exactly, Mike. They’d do it if they were smart, which has nothing to do with sincerity.

Do No Evil means that you think you know how to define evil, which means you feel the authority sit in judgment of others. European history is littered with such people. Don’t repeat histories mistakes;Be Ethical, Not Good.

Watch out, Mike. This entry might get you blocked by the GFW of China! Hoho…

Let me take that idea one step further, if I may.
They need to *think* and *feel* the “right” way, not just *say* it. Just saying it is just a facade… again just for business. When they think and feel the right way, they won’t have problem saying the right things.
- Commenting from China.

I am going to agree with Jonathan on this one. More than half the things we own are manufactured in this “evil-country”. Moreover, why is it that everyone seems to point fingers at Google but forget that their are many other major search engine corporations operating there?

- Jawad Shuaib

Bottom line is just be genuine with your intention for making this world a better place with all of your endeavors and then there won’t be discussions like this one about your true motives.

Well said Michael but lets not let forget where the next Olympics are being held or for that matter the “made in China” tag which is probably on the shirt you are wearing and almost certainly on your Nike’s or Reeboks.
I watched a doco on the Dalai Lama the other day and perhaps Google are taking a leaf out of his book in dealing with the Chinese.
Perhaps it’s better to at least be in their loop (evil or otherwise) than to simply shun a country which is such a military and economic powerhouse.
As an Australian I have to tell you that, as a whole, the Chinese migrants living in our country are amongst the most respected and enterprising of any of our migrant groups.
Of the many I do business with not one has said that they long to return to their ancestoral home. Frankly, based on your comments and what I have seen and read I don’t blame them.

A hard nosed policy on China does not help the situation - the Chinese gov’t has proved its not going to change by protest and loud statements but rather by the ever growing subtle demands by its people of progress and capitalism.

If google plays China’s game they are giving the Chinese people better access to information, communications tools, etc. - these are the true agents that will change China.

Instead, google/gmail are constantly blocked (I know, I lived there) and most Chinese internet users are forced to use second-rate information and communication tools. That’s the true disservice to the Chinese people - not blocking images of Tienanmen square.

Where-as the google.cn does sensor (and thus can have its servers located within Mainland China - which is critically important for speed), its fairly clear to most Chinese users that Google has given up on the country - A tragedy considering it will soon have the most internet users in the world who desperately need the information retrieval technology google is capable of providing.

China is a tough nut to crack. Goolge, Yahoo, Microsoft, and everyone that is anyone in the business world jumped in because their accountants told them they must go in there to claim their seat at this table of a Great-Wall-Size feast. The temptation to do business there is enormous — cheap and highly-educated work force, gigantic marketing potential, this and that.

I’m going to give Google people the benefit of the doubt when they made this carefully-worded face-saving admission. But I suspect Page, Birn, and Schmidt probably have learned a few things about China that horrified them, including a very seldom talked about secret: Chinese workers rarely create any labor problems for their employers, not because they are by nature docile, but because the communist party organization (which is in every aspect of their lives) makes sure there is no labor problems by suppressing the hell out of them.

The carefully filtered images of modern China create an illusion of a people prospering from the “great leap forward” in their capitalistic efforts, but hidden ugly realities are many; for instance, by law, there is no freedom of movement — a farmer in an inner province who is fed up with farming life cannot just buy a train ticket and ride into big cities like Shangahi; those who defy the laws find themselves living in big cities as second-class citizens, doing works equivalent to what are available for illegal immigrants in the U. S., and their children not allowed to attend public schools.

And I haven’t even brought up the genocidal oppression of Tibet, which is a long essay itself.

I am a Chinese and I hated Google.cn, Google.cn provides far less functions that Google.com, When I cannot access Google.com via GFW I choose Baidu.com.

Google certainly looks bad on this one, very sad…

The notion that Google doing business with a politically oppressive country is acceptable simply because “everyone else is doing it” seems to be in direct contrast to the business philosophy most people came to respect them for.

If China is reformed politically, it will be done by the Chinese, not by Americans.

What Google does or doesn’t do in China will make no difference to the course of Chinese politics.

Americans and American companies would be better advised to focus their ethical energies on, for example, torture being done by or outsourced by U.S. government agents, the continuing illegal detention of hundreds in Guantanamo Bay, etc.

Google meets difficulties in China, not only because of the Chinese government, but also the company itself. I think every government has its own situation, US is and also China. Both Microsoft and Yahoo do well in China, but Google came later than them, and didn’t pay enough attentions to this huge market. Now in China, Baidu search is very good and well-known by people here, Google wanna catch up with it, it should do more efforts than she did in US.

At least Google informs users that the results are censored, as opposed to many other sites (such as Yahoo, Baidu, or Microsoft). When searching for “法轮功” (Falun Gong), at the bottom of the page is text which BabelFish translates as “According to the local laws and regulations, part of the search results are not shown”

Ultimately, all US companies in China have to face a decision: Comply with Chinese law or leave. Perhaps it’s rare to find a CEO or any businessman for that matter offer excuses for a bad decision. That’s just the way things are in China. Why didn’t they leave? With the size of the market, who’s going to turn his back?

All 3 companies participated one way or another to censorship in China. It was a breach of trust on their company policies, their customers and the public itself. For in the name of lucrative revenues, all that represent for crumbled. They bowed to government pressure.

It’s inevitable, one has to understand how the Chinese operate business. Even the mighty fall for it.

For that near-admission of one CEO, it’s better than nothing. First time I’ve read anything from Google. Even when you complain (which I always do…hello blogger?) you won’t know, it’s just magic that service is up again. I haven’t listened to the podcasts at Davos. I’ll sure be blogging some of them.

*I still love all 3 companies though.

Mike, I’ve enjoyed your blog since the day it launched, and I respect your integrity most among all things. But this time I have to say, if you base your opinion wholly on what you heard while in Taiwan, you might be seriously misinformed.

Don’t want to turn this into a political debate, or claim to be a know-it-all. Actually when it comes to politics, I’d be the first one to admit I know so little about the truth to form any opinion.

you are very misinformed
taiwan and china say things about each other
the falun group leader teaches his pupils that if they “sacrifice themselves” for example setting themselves on fire, they will go to “heaven”
while he is happy and healthy in america
the most china does is prosecute them
there is definetely no turturing
do you really think that the usa would have let the torturing happen?
just a month ago or so the usa did a good thing when they stopped china from killing all those dogs and donating money
they definetely would have a fit and take immediate action if there were any tortures happening
it would have made headlines everywhere
but there are no such headlines
and china is so not a evil country
you must have been a bit drowsy when you were typing this or you are a very biased person!
evil country! lol
every country is evil in their ways

I still believe that in the long run China is shooting itself in the foot by allowing even a censored search engine to run in the country. Information will find its way into the hands of people who want it - make no mistake about that.

Google co-founder Sergey Brin said he regretted the decision because “On a business level, that decision to censor… was a net negative.”

This and other statements in your post, as well as your #2 comment, are all misleading at best - demonstrably false at worst.

The Guardian article you point to does not use the word ‘because’ - the word was never stated or inferred or implied. Here is the key graph:

Asked whether he regretted the decision, Mr Brin admitted yesterday: “On a business level, that decision to censor… was a net negative.”

I don’t know how much more clear this could be. Brin specifically addressed the business impact - that’s what the words “On a business level” mean. There was no implied ‘because’ in the above graph. You totally twisted the meaning of Brin’s words.

Addressing regret ‘on principle’, the article continues:

Last year in a speech in Washington Mr Brin admitted the company had been forced to compromise its principles to operate in China. At the time, he also hinted at a potential reversal of its stance in the country, saying “perhaps now the principled approach makes more sense”.

Even this paragraph doesn’t specifically address the motivation for looking at ‘the principled approach’ - the article doesn’t say, and unless we can point to some other evidence, we just don’t know. The above graph hints at regret on principle, but it is inconclusive.

To all the defenders of Chinese Communist government,

I have just one word for you: “Tibet”. I know you don’t want to hear about it. I can just see you doing the proverbial body language of covering your eyes and ears and going, “la, la, la, la, la…”

If you are a Chinese citizen capable of reading and writing English, you belong to an educated elite class, so I know you are smart, and you have a conscience, you know you cannot defend the atrocities your government has committed in Tibet, and I know there is pain in your heart regarding Tibet, let that pain be your guidance, and stop defending your communist rulers.

According to Wikipedia, there are 70 million registered Chinese Communist Party members:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C.....nist_party

70 million out of 1.3 billion is about 5%. 5% of the population lording over the other 95% fits the definition of “evil” perfectly. Michael is absolutely correct in calling the current Chinese government “evil”.

I’m pretty sure “doing evil” is not mentioned anywhere in the Chinese Communist Platform. Even though it is a little foreign to western thinking, many Chinese are willing to give up some of their rights (to censorship) for progress of national self interest. And, after all, many Americans are willing to give up their right of privacy (Patriot Act) to fight “terrorism.”

And Taiwan is not a balanced source of information on Falun Gong, as much as I love the Taiwanese, it just isn’t. Falun Gong could quite possible evolve into a political party if it hasn’t already and actually pose a threat to the CCP.

Furthermore, I think many people in the west ultimately know business is business regardless. Do defense contractors not have ethical difficulties either?

Ultimately I think Google made the right move, they’re going to have to confront China sooner or later, the sooner the better. Even with a negligible market share they can analyze demographics and plan ahead for the future.

If there is going to be a revolution, it is not going to come from Google, it is going to come from the Chinese. Standing on this “do no evil” high horse, is distracting the world from what ultimately is happening and at the tipping point in China.

Baidu is much better than Google in Chinese.

@ #23: I believe Tibet is more of a political story. This post is about the 3 net giants decision to do business in China deemed as the post say ‘evil’. I condemned the same in my posts though in a subtle way.

The 70 million CPP members? Not surprising. That’s there only Communist Party. I thought it’s more than that.

@ #25: I think they’re launching Baidu in Japan come March or April. I read this somewhere. Baidu is huge in China. Correct me if I’m wrong.

Michael, you are misinfomed… and you know nothing about China.
Each country has it’s own policy and regulation, such as the guest in your apartment must obey your rules…

I don’t want to create a flame, but I don’t know how else to say this: your finger pointing to “evil countries” coming from the USA looks ingenuous at best.
Do you know someone living in a non english-speaking country? If you do, ask them to name three-four countries that are preceived as evil, and you will learn to your surprise that, if Google had to fully apply the “don’t do business with evil countries” rule, it should move out of the States as the first thing tomorrow morning.

“do you really think that the usa would have let the torturing happen?”

I’ve watched the free world do very little to stop genocide in a number of African nations. It would come as no surpise to me if they turned a blind eye to torture.

“Do you know someone living in a non english-speaking country? If you do, ask them to name three-four countries…”

To be fair, quiz them on basic history and global politics. You’d be surprised how uninformed most people are.

Perhaps they genuinely don’t regret it on principle.

Their decision to provide a reliable but censored version for Chinese citizens to optionally use is still, in my eyes, the right decision from an ethical point of view. What most people seem to ignore is that Google’s results were being censored anyway. The Chinese ISPs would block any results page that contained certain keywords in the titles or summaries of the results, thus effectively breaking the whole search engine. What Google did was to provide an optional version in which *Google* decides how the results are censored. The result is that, for most Chinese citizens, the google.cn version is *less* censored than any other service Google is capable of providing. I don’t see anything wrong with doing what you can to minimize the amount of censored content, which is exactly what Google has done.

People criticize Google for “cooperating with the Chinese government.” What’s the alternative? Breaking the law and getting shut down completely? How would that benefit the Chinese citizens? Google isn’t a powerful force in China like it is in the U.S., so they don’t currently have the leverage to influence policy just yet. By doing what they can to build a user base in China and increasing awareness of the issue of censorship, they can gain influence and hopefully be part of a movement to change some of the Chinese policies.

At no point are the Chinese citizens suffering more because of Google’s decisions, nor are those decisions hurting any progress toward a more open society in Chinese. At worst, the Chinese citizens currently have a less censored service than they had before, and they can still use the uncensored google.com service as much as their ISPs allow. (Well, google.com actually is somewhat censored to everyone, including to people in the U.S., but not nearly to the same extent.) This isn’t a conflict of “the ends justify the means” mentality as some people have suggested; the ends is hopefully a less censored society, and the means is a presently less censored search engine.

Out of curiosity, have you asked chinese people what they think?

The most pressing issue of the day in the lives of everyday people in China is not censorship. It’s the environment. Ever tried going for a jog in Shanghai? The 2008 Olympics will be very difficult for the athletes. (Beijing in August is the hottest place I’ve ever experienced, and I grew up in Georgia. Remember how hot the 96 Olympics in Atlanta were? This will be much worse.)

Anyway, the point is not whether Chinese people can search for Falun Dafa or Tianenmen Square (which they don’t search for anyway - the events of 1989 are referred to locally as “6-4,” as in June 4). What DOES matter is whether they can find information about, say, PCBs or benzene, both of which have been found in high concentrations in the water supply.

There was a major chemical spill in Harbin 18 months ago that essentially shut down the city for a week. That got international attention, but this kind of thing goes on on a small scale every day. (There are over 20,000 public protests in China every year.) As far as I can tell from talking to Chinese people (of which my wife is one), this kind of information *is* available via Google and other search engines, and this is the kind of information on which political movements are built.

Google has a duty to its shareholders. Period. There is no duty to save the world.

The two aren’t necessarily mutually exclusive, but let’s keep things in perspective here.

where is the iphone made? what about the macbook pro - i bet some of it is from china.

Hey Anil

Can you give us some warning next time you post a comment?
That way I can get a couple of sandwiches and a six pack before I start reading it.

Michael Arrington said …

“… if Google wants to stay in the good graces of the smug western crowds, they need to say they regret working with the Chinese government because that government is evil …”

You seem to imply that other governments are benign or even beneficial. I’m afraid that you are only deceived by appearances. I suggest you read Albert Jay Nock’s _Our Enemy: The State_.

Google alters results in the USA not just in China!

http://www.prisonplanet.com/ar.....orship.htm

Michael, i respect your opinion, but if you want to make this into a political blog and start pointing fingers to companies that work with ‘evil governments’ i’d say we can start closer to home…how about the US government and it’s position on Guantánamo Bay. Lots of evilness happening there…

http://web.amnesty.org/pages/s.....atures-eng

My vendetta against Google started about a day after they decided to embrace censorship in China.

Since then, they’ve made one bad “business” decision after another.

I’m still wondering which one of the founders thought it would be a great idea to work with child molestors and drug dealers in Brazil….

Guys … governments are neither good nor bad. They are governments and will act to perpetuate their power and what they perceive as the “correct” way of life. Democratic governments do it as well but use different means than totalitarian ones.

Now … Google is a company just like any other and at the end of the day it answers to stock holders. It is great that Google has “DO NO EVIL” mission, but business is business and as a stock holder (in general terms) I would care about the value of my stock.

Some peoples sensitivities my be hurt by my comments; but what can you do.

Actually it will be much better for the growth of Chinese domestic search engine. So please leave China, Google

Mike,

For someone who repeatedly censors comments on his blog, you are being very hypocritical on your stance. And your ignorance of the rest of the world clearly shows.

The US invaded a nation on hearsay and has killed thousands of innocents and ruined the life of millions. So lets start closer at home next time before we start pointing fingers… Remember, it doesnt help to throw stones from a glass house!

-j

Google folks,

Listen to #42, #25, #12; these local Chinese don’t like your heavily censored search engine, don’t appreciate your effort to help them, plus you’re losing money over there, so why not just do what they suggest and leave?

The so-called “one billion population market” is a false picture. Out of the one billion, 600 million Chinese are farmers who are stuck with the generational trade they cannot just walk away, and these farmers, every single one of them poor, can barely feed their families let alone going online to use your search engine. Source: Wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E.....c_of_China

In his blog, Robert Scoble does bring up a valid point: the programming talents in China are worth harvesting. My suggestion is for you to set up an R&D lab and hire the best students right out of college and let them innovate. Strategically it’s a good play — one ace Chinese programmer you hire is one ace Chinese programmer that will not work for your rivals like Yahoo and Microsoft, and furthermore, he won’t work for the Chinese military industry machine which is growing bigger and more sinister.

Many good-willed American are badly misinformed about China, especially in hot issues about Falun Gong, Tibet, etc. Unfortunately, some people don’t try to find more balanced information before they make up their mind. Sometimes a simple label like “communist” or “freedom” or “evil” is very misleading. I’m not interested in arguing specific issues here, but I strongly suggest you double-check the basic facts whenever you want to side with Falun Gong.

To #44

Google is in China for profits, and profits only… not doing a good job of that right now…

What effort to help them? Please do not kid yourself. Google is a company not missionary.

Michael,

To classify a government as evil, as in “Axis of Evil”? You are being just like Bush… and we know how well that turned out.

You are over simplifing things to say the least.

When you put the subject, make it clear, not “China” but “Chinese government”. That makes big difference.

You idiot!

Perhaps we should take a look at our own government’s record before branding others as being evil.

Global polls have found that most people around the world find the U.S. government more a threat than any other in the world — including Iran or North Korea. China is not the country that is invading foreign lands and starting civil wars…

600,000 dead in Iraq and counting…

Here is the Wikipedia article on Falun Gong: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_gong

The most intriguing statistic is the following (from Wikipedia):

“The exact number of Falun Gong practitioners is not known. A figure of 70 million practitioners was quoted in a New York Times article published April 27, 1999.. According to the article, this figure was the estimate of PRC government. However according to a statement posted on November 1, 1999, the membership estimated by Beijing was 2.1 million. A main Falun Gong website states a figure of 100 million practitioners worldwide, including 70 million in mainland China….”

I’m going to take New York Times number more seriously than the one from the Chinese government (call me biased). So, there are 70 million Falun Gong members versus 70 million card-carrying Chinese Communist party members; no wonder the latter are scared of the former. Oh, wait, they’re not scared, they simply round them up and put them in jail.

Good post Buda (#47). To view the world as “good” or “evil” is equivalent to seeing it as “black” or “white”,”my way” or “the highway”…extremists of all faiths and beliefs view the world through such a narrow lens.

Life is good.

Peace,
-Saïd