Google and China and Evilness

Google.cn was never been a hit in China — it pales in comparison to some of the other mainstream search sites that already had anchored itself long before Google launched its cn counterpart.

From our eyes a censor on the web at a national level is absurd and unheard of, which it should be. Saying that it was a ‘net-negative’ seems indicative of ‘negative profits’ for the Google.cn venture. A ‘evil-country’ doesn’t seem to make sense either, you don’t stop doing business with a foreign country because it is ‘evil’. It sure didn’t stop the export of oil from Iraq when it was labeled as the ‘axis-of-evil’.

Google made a mistake to dip their toes into china — so what?

I think if Google was smart they’d say “We’ve looked back at the decision and we regret it on principle” that would be a good thing. But to say that they regret it only because they came out behind financially makes them look sort of shallow. At least their being honest though.

Well at least we know how they feel. I guess they could of lied about it.

Exactly, Mike. They’d do it if they were smart, which has nothing to do with sincerity.

Do No Evil means that you think you know how to define evil, which means you feel the authority sit in judgment of others. European history is littered with such people. Don’t repeat histories mistakes;Be Ethical, Not Good.

Watch out, Mike. This entry might get you blocked by the GFW of China! Hoho…

Let me take that idea one step further, if I may.
They need to *think* and *feel* the “right” way, not just *say* it. Just saying it is just a facade… again just for business. When they think and feel the right way, they won’t have problem saying the right things.
- Commenting from China.

I am going to agree with Jonathan on this one. More than half the things we own are manufactured in this “evil-country”. Moreover, why is it that everyone seems to point fingers at Google but forget that their are many other major search engine corporations operating there?

- Jawad Shuaib

Bottom line is just be genuine with your intention for making this world a better place with all of your endeavors and then there won’t be discussions like this one about your true motives.

Well said Michael but lets not let forget where the next Olympics are being held or for that matter the “made in China” tag which is probably on the shirt you are wearing and almost certainly on your Nike’s or Reeboks.
I watched a doco on the Dalai Lama the other day and perhaps Google are taking a leaf out of his book in dealing with the Chinese.
Perhaps it’s better to at least be in their loop (evil or otherwise) than to simply shun a country which is such a military and economic powerhouse.
As an Australian I have to tell you that, as a whole, the Chinese migrants living in our country are amongst the most respected and enterprising of any of our migrant groups.
Of the many I do business with not one has said that they long to return to their ancestoral home. Frankly, based on your comments and what I have seen and read I don’t blame them.

A hard nosed policy on China does not help the situation - the Chinese gov’t has proved its not going to change by protest and loud statements but rather by the ever growing subtle demands by its people of progress and capitalism.

If google plays China’s game they are giving the Chinese people better access to information, communications tools, etc. - these are the true agents that will change China.

Instead, google/gmail are constantly blocked (I know, I lived there) and most Chinese internet users are forced to use second-rate information and communication tools. That’s the true disservice to the Chinese people - not blocking images of Tienanmen square.

Where-as the google.cn does sensor (and thus can have its servers located within Mainland China - which is critically important for speed), its fairly clear to most Chinese users that Google has given up on the country - A tragedy considering it will soon have the most internet users in the world who desperately need the information retrieval technology google is capable of providing.

China is a tough nut to crack. Goolge, Yahoo, Microsoft, and everyone that is anyone in the business world jumped in because their accountants told them they must go in there to claim their seat at this table of a Great-Wall-Size feast. The temptation to do business there is enormous — cheap and highly-educated work force, gigantic marketing potential, this and that.

I’m going to give Google people the benefit of the doubt when they made this carefully-worded face-saving admission. But I suspect Page, Birn, and Schmidt probably have learned a few things about China that horrified them, including a very seldom talked about secret: Chinese workers rarely create any labor problems for their employers, not because they are by nature docile, but because the communist party organization (which is in every aspect of their lives) makes sure there is no labor problems by suppressing the hell out of them.

The carefully filtered images of modern China create an illusion of a people prospering from the “great leap forward” in their capitalistic efforts, but hidden ugly realities are many; for instance, by law, there is no freedom of movement — a farmer in an inner province who is fed up with farming life cannot just buy a train ticket and ride into big cities like Shangahi; those who defy the laws find themselves living in big cities as second-class citizens, doing works equivalent to what are available for illegal immigrants in the U. S., and their children not allowed to attend public schools.

And I haven’t even brought up the genocidal oppression of Tibet, which is a long essay itself.

I am a Chinese and I hated Google.cn, Google.cn provides far less functions that Google.com, When I cannot access Google.com via GFW I choose Baidu.com.

Google certainly looks bad on this one, very sad…

The notion that Google doing business with a politically oppressive country is acceptable simply because “everyone else is doing it” seems to be in direct contrast to the business philosophy most people came to respect them for.

If China is reformed politically, it will be done by the Chinese, not by Americans.

What Google does or doesn’t do in China will make no difference to the course of Chinese politics.

Americans and American companies would be better advised to focus their ethical energies on, for example, torture being done by or outsourced by U.S. government agents, the continuing illegal detention of hundreds in Guantanamo Bay, etc.

Google meets difficulties in China, not only because of the Chinese government, but also the company itself. I think every government has its own situation, US is and also China. Both Microsoft and Yahoo do well in China, but Google came later than them, and didn’t pay enough attentions to this huge market. Now in China, Baidu search is very good and well-known by people here, Google wanna catch up with it, it should do more efforts than she did in US.

At least Google informs users that the results are censored, as opposed to many other sites (such as Yahoo, Baidu, or Microsoft). When searching for “法轮功” (Falun Gong), at the bottom of the page is text which BabelFish translates as “According to the local laws and regulations, part of the search results are not shown”

Ultimately, all US companies in China have to face a decision: Comply with Chinese law or leave. Perhaps it’s rare to find a CEO or any businessman for that matter offer excuses for a bad decision. That’s just the way things are in China. Why didn’t they leave? With the size of the market, who’s going to turn his back?

All 3 companies participated one way or another to censorship in China. It was a breach of trust on their company policies, their customers and the public itself. For in the name of lucrative revenues, all that represent for crumbled. They bowed to government pressure.

It’s inevitable, one has to understand how the Chinese operate business. Even the mighty fall for it.

For that near-admission of one CEO, it’s better than nothing. First time I’ve read anything from Google. Even when you complain (which I always do…hello blogger?) you won’t know, it’s just magic that service is up again. I haven’t listened to the podcasts at Davos. I’ll sure be blogging some of them.

*I still love all 3 companies though.

Mike, I’ve enjoyed your blog since the day it launched, and I respect your integrity most among all things. But this time I have to say, if you base your opinion wholly on what you heard while in Taiwan, you might be seriously misinformed.

Don’t want to turn this into a political debate, or claim to be a know-it-all. Actually when it comes to politics, I’d be the first one to admit I know so little about the truth to form any opinion.

you are very misinformed
taiwan and china say things about each other
the falun group leader teaches his pupils that if they “sacrifice themselves” for example setting themselves on fire, they will go to “heaven”
while he is happy and healthy in america
the most china does is prosecute them
there is definetely no turturing
do you really think that the usa would have let the torturing happen?
just a month ago or so the usa did a good thing when they stopped china from killing all those dogs and donating money
they definetely would have a fit and take immediate action if there were any tortures happening
it would have made headlines everywhere
but there are no such headlines
and china is so not a evil country
you must have been a bit drowsy when you were typing this or you are a very biased person!
evil country! lol
every country is evil in their ways

I still believe that in the long run China is shooting itself in the foot by allowing even a censored search engine to run in the country. Information will find its way into the hands of people who want it - make no mistake about that.

Google co-founder Sergey Brin said he regretted the decision because “On a business level, that decision to censor… was a net negative.”

This and other statements in your post, as well as your #2 comment, are all misleading at best - demonstrably false at worst.

The Guardian article you point to does not use the word ‘because’ - the word was never stated or inferred or implied. Here is the key graph:

Asked whether he regretted the decision, Mr Brin admitted yesterday: “On a business level, that decision to censor… was a net negative.”

I don’t know how much more clear this could be. Brin specifically addressed the business impact - that’s what the words “On a business level” mean. There was no implied ‘because’ in the above graph. You totally twisted the meaning of Brin’s words.

Addressing regret ‘on principle’, the article continues:

Last year in a speech in Washington Mr Brin admitted the company had been forced to compromise its principles to operate in China. At the time, he also hinted at a potential reversal of its stance in the country, saying “perhaps now the principled approach makes more sense”.

Even this paragraph doesn’t specifically address the motivation for looking at ‘the principled approach’ - the article doesn’t say, and unless we can point to some other evidence, we just don’t know. The above graph hints at regret on principle, but it is inconclusive.

To all the defenders of Chinese Communist government,

I have just one word for you: “Tibet”. I know you don’t want to hear about it. I can just see you doing the proverbial body language of covering your eyes and ears and going, “la, la, la, la, la…”

If you are a Chinese citizen capable of reading and writing English, you belong to an educated elite class, so I know you are smart, and you have a conscience, you know you cannot defend the atrocities your government has committed in Tibet, and I know there is pain in your heart regarding Tibet, let that pain be your guidance, and stop defending your communist rulers.

According to Wikipedia, there are 70 million registered Chinese Communist Party members:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C.....nist_party

70 million out of 1.3 billion is about 5%. 5% of the population lording over the other 95% fits the definition of “evil” perfectly. Michael is absolutely correct in calling the current Chinese government “evil”.

I’m pretty sure “doing evil” is not mentioned anywhere in the Chinese Communist Platform. Even though it is a little foreign to western thinking, many Chinese are willing to give up some of their rights (to censorship) for progress of national self interest. And, after all, many Americans are willing to give up their right of privacy (Patriot Act) to fight “terrorism.”

And Taiwan is not a balanced source of information on Falun Gong, as much as I love the Taiwanese, it just isn’t. Falun Gong could quite possible evolve into a political party if it hasn’t already and actually pose a threat to the CCP.

Furthermore, I think many people in the west ultimately know business is business regardless. Do defense contractors not have ethical difficulties either?

Ultimately I think Google made the right move, they’re going to have to confront China sooner or later, the sooner the better. Even with a negligible market share they can analyze demographics and plan ahead for the future.

If there is going to be a revolution, it is not going to come from Google, it is going to come from the Chinese. Standing on this “do no evil” high horse, is distracting the world from what ultimately is happening and at the tipping point in China.

Baidu is much better than Google in Chinese.

@ #23: I believe Tibet is more of a political story. This post is about the 3 net giants decision to do business in China deemed as the post say ‘evil’. I condemned the same in my posts though in a subtle way.

The 70 million CPP members? Not surprising. That’s there only Communist Party. I thought it’s more than that.

@ #25: I think they’re launching Baidu in Japan come March or April. I read this somewhere. Baidu is huge in China. Correct me if I’m wrong.

Michael, you are misinfomed… and you know nothing about China.
Each country has it’s own policy and regulation, such as the guest in your apartment must obey your rules…

I don’t want to create a flame, but I don’t know how else to say this: your finger pointing to “evil countries” coming from the USA looks ingenuous at best.
Do you know someone living in a non english-speaking country? If you do, ask them to name three-four countries that are preceived as evil, and you will learn to your surprise that, if Google had to fully apply the “don’t do business with evil countries” rule, it should move out of the States as the first thing tomorrow morning.

“do you really think that the usa would have let the torturing happen?”

I’ve watched the free world do very little to stop genocide in a number of African nations. It would come as no surpise to me if they turned a blind eye to torture.

“Do you know someone living in a non english-speaking country? If you do, ask them to name three-four countries…”

To be fair, quiz them on basic history and global politics. You’d be surprised how uninformed most people are.

Perhaps they genuinely don’t regret it on principle.

Their decision to provide a reliable but censored version for Chinese citizens to optionally use is still, in my eyes, the right decision from an ethical point of view. What most people seem to ignore is that Google’s results were being censored anyway. The Chinese ISPs would block any results page that contained certain keywords in the titles or summaries of the results, thus effectively breaking the whole search engine. What Google did was to provide an optional version in which *Google* decides how the results are censored. The result is that, for most Chinese citizens, the google.cn version is *less* censored than any other service Google is capable of providing. I don’t see anything wrong with doing what you can to minimize the amount of censored content, which is exactly what Google has done.

People criticize Google for “cooperating with the Chinese government.” What’s the alternative? Breaking the law and getting shut down completely? How would that benefit the Chinese citizens? Google isn’t a powerful force in China like it is in the U.S., so they don’t currently have the leverage to influence policy just yet. By doing what they can to build a user base in China and increasing awareness of the issue of censorship, they can gain influence and hopefully be part of a movement to change some of the Chinese policies.

At no point are the Chinese citizens suffering more because of Google’s decisions, nor are those decisions hurting any progress toward a more open society in Chinese. At worst, the Chinese citizens currently have a less censored service than they had before, and they can still use the uncensored google.com service as much as their ISPs allow. (Well, google.com actually is somewhat censored to everyone, including to people in the U.S., but not nearly to the same extent.) This isn’t a conflict of “the ends justify the means” mentality as some people have suggested; the ends is hopefully a less censored society, and the means is a presently less censored search engine.

Out of curiosity, have you asked chinese people what they think?

The most pressing issue of the day in the lives of everyday people in China is not censorship. It’s the environment. Ever tried going for a jog in Shanghai? The 2008 Olympics will be very difficult for the athletes. (Beijing in August is the hottest place I’ve ever experienced, and I grew up in Georgia. Remember how hot the 96 Olympics in Atlanta were? This will be much worse.)

Anyway, the point is not whether Chinese people can search for Falun Dafa or Tianenmen Square (which they don’t search for anyway - the events of 1989 are referred to locally as “6-4,” as in June 4). What DOES matter is whether they can find information about, say, PCBs or benzene, both of which have been found in high concentrations in the water supply.

There was a major chemical spill in Harbin 18 months ago that essentially shut down the city for a week. That got international attention, but this kind of thing goes on on a small scale every day. (There are over 20,000 public protests in China every year.) As far as I can tell from talking to Chinese people (of which my wife is one), this kind of information *is* available via Google and other search engines, and this is the kind of information on which political movements are built.

Google has a duty to its shareholders. Period. There is no duty to save the world.

The two aren’t necessarily mutually exclusive, but let’s keep things in perspective here.

where is the iphone made? what about the macbook pro - i bet some of it is from china.

Hey Anil

Can you give us some warning next time you post a comment?
That way I can get a couple of sandwiches and a six pack before I start reading it.

Michael Arrington said …

“… if Google wants to stay in the good graces of the smug western crowds, they need to say they regret working with the Chinese government because that government is evil …”

You seem to imply that other governments are benign or even beneficial. I’m afraid that you are only deceived by appearances. I suggest you read Albert Jay Nock’s _Our Enemy: The State_.

Google alters results in the USA not just in China!

http://www.prisonplanet.com/ar.....orship.htm

Michael, i respect your opinion, but if you want to make this into a political blog and start pointing fingers to companies that work with ‘evil governments’ i’d say we can start closer to home…how about the US government and it’s position on Guantánamo Bay. Lots of evilness happening there…

http://web.amnesty.org/pages/s.....atures-eng

My vendetta against Google started about a day after they decided to embrace censorship in China.

Since then, they’ve made one bad “business” decision after another.

I’m still wondering which one of the founders thought it would be a great idea to work with child molestors and drug dealers in Brazil….

Guys … governments are neither good nor bad. They are governments and will act to perpetuate their power and what they perceive as the “correct” way of life. Democratic governments do it as well but use different means than totalitarian ones.

Now … Google is a company just like any other and at the end of the day it answers to stock holders. It is great that Google has “DO NO EVIL” mission, but business is business and as a stock holder (in general terms) I would care about the value of my stock.

Some peoples sensitivities my be hurt by my comments; but what can you do.

Actually it will be much better for the growth of Chinese domestic search engine. So please leave China, Google

Mike,

For someone who repeatedly censors comments on his blog, you are being very hypocritical on your stance. And your ignorance of the rest of the world clearly shows.

The US invaded a nation on hearsay and has killed thousands of innocents and ruined the life of millions. So lets start closer at home next time before we start pointing fingers… Remember, it doesnt help to throw stones from a glass house!

-j

Google folks,

Listen to #42, #25, #12; these local Chinese don’t like your heavily censored search engine, don’t appreciate your effort to help them, plus you’re losing money over there, so why not just do what they suggest and leave?

The so-called “one billion population market” is a false picture. Out of the one billion, 600 million Chinese are farmers who are stuck with the generational trade they cannot just walk away, and these farmers, every single one of them poor, can barely feed their families let alone going online to use your search engine. Source: Wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E.....c_of_China

In his blog, Robert Scoble does bring up a valid point: the programming talents in China are worth harvesting. My suggestion is for you to set up an R&D lab and hire the best students right out of college and let them innovate. Strategically it’s a good play — one ace Chinese programmer you hire is one ace Chinese programmer that will not work for your rivals like Yahoo and Microsoft, and furthermore, he won’t work for the Chinese military industry machine which is growing bigger and more sinister.

Many good-willed American are badly misinformed about China, especially in hot issues about Falun Gong, Tibet, etc. Unfortunately, some people don’t try to find more balanced information before they make up their mind. Sometimes a simple label like “communist” or “freedom” or “evil” is very misleading. I’m not interested in arguing specific issues here, but I strongly suggest you double-check the basic facts whenever you want to side with Falun Gong.

To #44

Google is in China for profits, and profits only… not doing a good job of that right now…

What effort to help them? Please do not kid yourself. Google is a company not missionary.

Michael,

To classify a government as evil, as in “Axis of Evil”? You are being just like Bush… and we know how well that turned out.

You are over simplifing things to say the least.

When you put the subject, make it clear, not “China” but “Chinese government”. That makes big difference.

You idiot!

Perhaps we should take a look at our own government’s record before branding others as being evil.

Global polls have found that most people around the world find the U.S. government more a threat than any other in the world — including Iran or North Korea. China is not the country that is invading foreign lands and starting civil wars…

600,000 dead in Iraq and counting…

Here is the Wikipedia article on Falun Gong: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_gong

The most intriguing statistic is the following (from Wikipedia):

“The exact number of Falun Gong practitioners is not known. A figure of 70 million practitioners was quoted in a New York Times article published April 27, 1999.. According to the article, this figure was the estimate of PRC government. However according to a statement posted on November 1, 1999, the membership estimated by Beijing was 2.1 million. A main Falun Gong website states a figure of 100 million practitioners worldwide, including 70 million in mainland China….”

I’m going to take New York Times number more seriously than the one from the Chinese government (call me biased). So, there are 70 million Falun Gong members versus 70 million card-carrying Chinese Communist party members; no wonder the latter are scared of the former. Oh, wait, they’re not scared, they simply round them up and put them in jail.

Good post Buda (#47). To view the world as “good” or “evil” is equivalent to seeing it as “black” or “white”,”my way” or “the highway”…extremists of all faiths and beliefs view the world through such a narrow lens.

Life is good.

Peace,
-Saïd

Well it just goes to show you that the bottom line (money) will wipe out anything including personal freedoms, freedom of speech, and ethics.

I enjoyed this article on Google and I wholeheartedly agree with you Michael.

I don’t think any company should cooperate with a dictatorship in censoring information. It certainly doesn’t make that company look good at best and at worst is immoral.

This sort of thing is quite unfortunate because I like what Google has accomplished in general.

It is reminiscent of those companies that cooperated with the Nazi’s during WW2.

One would think that the same minds which helped create Google Earth would understand this, but alas engineering intelligence and business acumen does not necessarily correlate with moral terptitude.

So I finally got it! It’s a bad, evil, awful thing when China does torture, but it’s ok if the United States does that, right? Oh yes, because USA does it fighting for democracy in the free world… what a crap! You americans are so blind sometimes…

I do not believe in anything that is not seen by my own eyes. Keeping skepticism is, in my opinion, very important.

KNOW TRUE EVIL: Dedicated to those 120,000,000+ who died

http://www.namyth.com/?pg=wallpapers

Well here’s a perspective from a startup entrepreneur in China (I am an American).

A censored Google is better than no Google at all in China. Baidu is the dominant engine in Chinese and got there by largely ignoring copyright law. You can go to Baidu right now and do an MP3 search for a song you like, and download the pirated music right off the search engine results.

I agree with the earlier comment that even a ce nso red internet will have far and wide-ranging effects on the Chinese population. It is very, very far from perfect, and the government is doing an impressive job of distorting the picture of what is going on inside and outside of the country. Nevertheless, the amount of progress in opening up China to outside or dis sen ting opinions has been amazing in the past few years. I think the government is fighting a losing battle against free information flow.

In terms of whether the Chinese g is not evil or not — I think the Western media is often too focused on issues like tib et or fal gon. If you want to know the real fault-lines in China — you should check out blogs like:
EastNorthWestSouth and Global Voices Online - China. The issues that dominate China are not t i bet, which has a population of less than 5 million — but of the massive inequality between the haves and have-nots, the pervasive co rrup tion in the system, and the growing ecological and health / social services / demographic disaster that are looming in the country’s future. That and of course the internal politics.

Unfortunately, many western commentators on China still don’t bother to read anything from China itself. That’s a shame considering how much is available — even with the Chinese g trying to stop it.

Nancy, you are yourself the one who is misinformed by the Communist Party.

Let me tell you why.

Falun Gong is widely practiced all over the world in over 80 countries, these misbehaviors, such as self-immolation, killing, or madness, are never ever reported outside of China. Why would they only be the burst-out new in year of 1999 and 2000, before and after the ban is commanded? Falun Gong is introduced from 1992, for these 7 years, there weren’t any of such social problem. Why? Mainland Chinese, you are excellent, clever, smart people, but why don’t you try to think with your own ration? Get out the Communism and Party’s brainwashing of “Party is always right” logic, would you, please?

Except for no freedom of press China, everybody knows, most of democratic countries have over-free media, they would digg out social misdeeds. Why aren’t there any self-immolation or misdeeds from Falun Gong practitioners in US?

You may not be a Tibetan, nor a Falun Gong practitioner, but human rights issue should be relevant to YOU, as long as you are a human.

Do you know that Christians and Protestans are also under severe surveillance and some priests just dissappearred out of no reason?

This post definitely has stirred up some emotions, and I find myself as one of the people influenced enough to provide a comment.

‘Evil’ is such a polarizing word and i find myself upset at the usage of it in this context as I sit in my home in China (as an American). It took me a long time to come to grips with the Chinese government, i’ve been here for almost ten years, but i’ve started to understand where they’re coming from. They are very utilitarian: try to provide the greatest good for the greatest number. It’s not our position to try and determine what ‘good’ is for the Chinese; it’s theirs. By brandishing the government as evil and discouraging business in China doesn’t necessarily help the gov’t see things from an international perspective.

in terms of basing your thoughts on Taiwan and Fa Lun Gong, consider the sources. Asking Taiwan’s opinion on China would’ve been like asking West Germany’s opinion on East Germany during the Cold War - do you think you can get an unbiased opinion? Falun Gong is another polarizing issue, but the best summary i received was from some Chinese students living in the US: “Falun Gong is exactly like the Church of Scientology”. They are strange, manipulative, and committed to pushing their views. I don’t doubt that some members are tortured and persecuted, but i wouldn’t believe their stance 100% either. The own several newspapers in the US (Chinese language news) and definitely voice their opinions without showing the other side: That most Chinese don’t care about politics, but care about putting food on their table and improving the lives of their family members.

Now I really understand the way how Chinese think and judge.

PRC might subsidy Tibet quite a lot. How about I feed you up and you *MUST* be my DOG, and ACCEPT my training with no excuses! Chinese government subsidy Tibetans, so Tibet have to give up the freedom of keeping their own culture, language, religion, etc.

It’s not just a single case! If I were a citizen of US or France, do I need the visa or equivalent document for traveling from place A to place Z?

Yes, European did make a lot of terrible things in America when there’re only Indians, and they did it not just in America, but also Africa, Asia. No one denies it! However, it’s the history from around 500 years ago.

Unlike most of the Chinese people, the Han people, Tibetans can be treated as barbarians (Chinese guys did it this way since at least 3000 years ago.), how about the truth happened at Tiannaman Square? Never heard of that? Then can anybody please kindly answer me that how many countries ever sent the tanks ran over its OWN people in the past 20 years?

Shame on Chinese / China Government, and those who defend what PRC did, and what PRC is doing!

58>> You are lucky you got your citizenship in Taiwan. You are free to talk. Anyway, what’s your point? What’s Tibet and China’s history got to do with Google’s case?

Chinese also complaint about some of the things you mentioned, but that is not the reason why Taiwan should get independent from China. Westernners may not understand our view on the issue of territory integrity.
But if Taiwan want to do that evil, China will DO ANY THING AT ANY COST.

Since business rarely is about ethics but rather about…business, maybe the logic of this statement stops even more companies from doing unethical business with China.

This post is a classic mis-quote. Brin has said that their decision to go into China has been a net-negative from a business point of view, but no where does it say that he regrets it.

Users in China have a right to use Google and in censoring their results, Google have provided the Chinese people with an incredible tool that they would otherwise not have access to.

I believe (call me naive if you will) that Google’s analysts had predicted the business model wouldn’t be successful, but they went ahead with it anyway simply because, for the Chinese people, it was that or nothing.

Really hard to hear you saying so.TechCrunch was my favorite tech blog,and I really appreciate you as a blogger,so please do not invlove political thing or my country in your posts any more.That’s not funny,and,how much you know about Falun gong? Does that have anything with Google in China? What if we report anything in China that refer to Amercia in Iraq? Like we say”Dell in China Market,wow,just like what U.S do in Iraq?”

Chinese government did somthing wrong, but you should not go to get some information only in Taiwan. Now the leader in Taiwan is pro-independence, so you will get many negative impression about mainland China there. If the leader were pro-unification from the National Party, you may get some reversed news. Tibetan people live a better life now, even richer than Han people because of the prosperous travel industry. The government has no need to get rid of tibetan religion, because religion always played an unimportant role in China’s history. Never a war caused by religion broke out in her history, and few Chinese believe in religion.

If you are a Chinese citizen capable of reading and writing English, you belong to an educated elite class
——————————————————————————————–
Funny, really funny, a person never go to China.

Taiwanese is Chinese, or you will taste our missiles.

Also I don’t agree with many things that Chinese government has done, but I believe that Falun Gong is the exactly evilest on the world.
When I a student of high school, the Falun Gong member forbid my classmate and I playing football on the ground of our school for they need that place to learn Falun Gong. What a evil thing it is!

Mike, I like your blog so much, as your view about web2.0 is great. But I’m so disappointed to see that you make this post, China is “evil”! How much do you know about China? Have you ever come to China? Just reading the news from US and Taiwan media, do you think this information is true?

I think US people are very kind, but just many of you are so naive, you say our Chinese government control all the media, do you think that your US government let you talk whatever you talk?

Call China evil, do you know that there are so many people I meet in Europe call US the most evil country in the world?

I used to see a video in Youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhh89RVs3ps

Your Amercian people are too close mind, how can these people just judge other country as evil, how funny is this!

#66 says, “Taiwanese is Chinese, or you will taste our missiles.”

I think I have just proved my point regarding the degree of cruelty of the Chinese Communists.

Mike, props for turning a no-news story into a heated political debate…whether or not that was the intention (at least partial? we all know what long comment debates do for pageviews), I think it’s good people are debating the issue.

However, putting China and “evilness” in the post title and calling the Chinese Govt “evil” is inappropriate and doesn’t really benefit the discussion beyond getting people’s attention and stir up emotions. Tabloit tactics at best.

Evil is a strong word to use and if the Chinese Govt is your definition of evil, then you should look to the U.S. Govt for some fairly recent acts of “evil”, as well as other western countries in modern history. I agree with several other commenters that if you base your opinion of mainland China on what you heard from a few people while on a business trip to Taiwan, then you are too naive.

But this is lesson for all of us. See, we have Taiwan and China on the board now, seldom you find them together in one boardroom for that matter. Just be quick to duck when missiles point your direction.

This post shows you the shift in economic powers.

Ah yah, you all Chinese - Taiwan, China kah, ok lah. No fighting. This is nice board. Peace!

Anyway, some points:

@#23: You’d be surprise how ordinary people in China put education in the forefront. Entering a university is one tough job over there. So they invest on their children’s education too just to land a place in a particular school. There are many from the mainland who send their children overseas to study and we are talking about ordinary people here.

#64 “…Tibetan people live a better life now, even richer than Han people because of the prosperous travel industry. The government has no need to get rid of tibetan religion, because religion always played an unimportant role in China’s history. Never a war caused by religion broke out in her history, and few Chinese believe in religion. ”

- That’s true. With the opening of the railway to the “Roof of the World”, commerce and trade is slowly coming to the area. If you’ve been to Lhasa lately, you’ll find those from other provinces selling their wares on a thin strip of commercial area. Sure commerce will always introduce new fears to the people of Tibet as their peaceful existence is slowly humming to a new tone.

Funny that you take a stance on issues you know NOTHING about. You wanna know what Falun group is about? Let me make an analogy. You watch 24, right? Episode 1 of season 6, remember those suicide bombers? Well, some of the Falun members are just that. In the past, some members have set themselves on fire in the middle of Tiananmen Square.

What would you think of a religion/organization that motiviates its members to set themselves on fire in front of the White House?

You do a good job writing about technology, you may want to stick to it.

To #71 ipanema,

If you have some time, do read the Wikipedia article on Tibet: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibet because I think your view on Tibet is questionable.

I must remind you, as we speak, an elected Iranian president has repeatedly declared that Holocaust did not exist and that Israel should be “wiped out”. My real estate agent is an Iranian exile. She and I talked about Iran many times; often she simply shook her head, could not believe that her fellow Iranians could elect someone who is a blatant Holocaust denier.

Germans are some of the smartest people on this planet, yet from 1919 to 1945, for 26 years, a large majority of them supported a death cult called Nazism.

My point is that people could get blinded by their nationalistic fervor and do not see the evil in their leaders, and I’m afraid that many Chinese, as smart as they are, cannot see through this fog called “nationalism”.

Suppose that Falun Gong is evil — and if one studies its doctrine, this is one possible conclusion.

In that case, if China is suppressing the spread of this evil, is China not-evil? In this case, Google has not been evil.

Similarly, for the German government to suppress any Nazi groups, most people would not think that Germany is an evil country. There are of course some fringe individuals (perhaps neo-nazis) who would label this on the present German government.

The point then is: perhaps China is not evil and that Google is not evil in doing business with a country which is trying its best to rid out evil? China is certainly not doing a good PR job. Its handling of Tianamen Square is abominal: did the British did something similar in Boston in the 1700’s? Perhaps China as a country is not learning fast enough how to handle its governance. Evil? Maybe not.

“Mike, props for turning a no-news story into a heated political debate”

Political for you perhaps. Your site is not being erased by Google like ours…

#62

You ARE naive… The reason why google is in china is simple… How can a #1 search engine in the world leave out the potential #1 market(number of net users) in the world? Even if they lose money in the short time, they gotta get a foot in the door hoping for a chance to grow and profitable in the future, or else, google will become quickly irrelevant in China.

Michael, I can’t believe you base your opinion on what you heard from Taiwan. It’s like going to North Korea/Iraq/… and ask people there what they think of the US. It’s all political propaganda!

By your logic, the Chinese bloggers should be persuading people not go to McDonald’s in China because it’s a company that’s from the country that invaded Iraq.

#73 Let’s talk about one thing at a time. The post itself is heavy - Google, China and Evilness. Iran, Iraq and the Nazis another time, alright?

If you want to let me read sources, can you please refer me to a reputable one. I’m not sure who’s editing wikipedia and it’s not my business. Well, I suggest you read other sources too. The opening of the railway which I wrote on #71 which you referred was covered by major dailies and television brought an emergence of a new Tibet. I’m talking commerce and trade in post #71. I’m not sure we’re you’re from but I’m from the region. I’ve travelled to that place because of my job. Friends are still there, on and off.

I think you’re harping more on evil in leaders as you say. Well, EVIL is everywhere. Not just in Iran, Iraq, Germany, China…it’s omnipresent…it manifests in many forms…it’s all around us.

Thanks for engaging me. Whatever differing views we have on the POST, I always welcome for as long as it’s substantiave and relevant. Otherwise, we’re like fools because every minute we spend on why Google, et al engage business in China, they’re earning millions as we speak.

Cheers!

Bush government is much more evil.

Google.cn is such a small matter. Most chinese can access Google.com without problem. The only feature of Google.cn are chinese charachters and filtering of tian an men square pictures or some stupid censorship like it.

If 5% of the chinese people are member of the communist party, then how many americans are member of the republican party, much less than 5%.

And the most evil thing is people didn’t vote for Bush, and people in USA have not wanted Bush lead their country for years. And not only did he fork up USA, he is forking up the world with his right wing pollution and stupidity.

If there is something that needs to be fixed in China, it is the living standards of the largest part of the working population, and the pollution. Those are mostly caused by USA and Western influence on the Chinese economy.

To Chinese boy who thinks Falun Gong is
Falun Gong is practiced in 70 countries all around the world. Why is that only one country - China has any problem with it? Gee maybe because all the Chinese people have been suppressed controlled and lied to for the last 60 years generation of generation family after family person after person. You have no idea what goes on in the outside world because all your information is censored.

NO Chinese would ever go back it live in China aafter living outside of China in a free world. They would love to go back only when the communist regime is dead>> Free the Chinese people and make the world a safer place to live. The Communist regime is dead long live the the new democratic China

Well why can the Chinese get away by making such demands.
very simply cause no one stands up to them.
Their demands are baseless.
Its time the US companies and government demands reasonable reciprocity wrt china

Those of you claiming that overseas Chinese have no desire to return are smoking crack. Many of the founders of startups in China are returning Chinese. In fact, there is a term for them — sea turtles. The motivation is purely economical because China presents the best opportunity for that subset of overseas Chinese.

I’m a Chinese. I have no good impression of Fa Lun gong. But I guess guys have their freedom to practice whatever they like without disturbing others.

I say Fa Lun Gong IS bad. They make money by fooling people. If you guys ever come here, you’ll know what I’m saying. Maybe they behave better overseas. But, here, they are really nasty.

Anyway, I respect their freedom and I prefer to fight them by commission, rather than handcarfs.

I also believe that Chinese gov is even WORSE. They crack on FLG because FLGs are threatening its ruling. China is full of cheats like them, but the government only take FLG seriously. My gov itself is something like FLG, ruling the whole country by brain washing.

Do not support FLG too much. They enjoy no reputation here back in China. Just look at the reporters, and the depressed professors. They deserve more concerning than FLGs.

About google:
It’s not google’s fault. It should blame the Chinese Gov.

I use google everyday. Fortunately, I can read English. So I’m not that brain-washed today.

If google doesn’t cooperate with Chinese Gov. It will be kicked out of China and that will be a great loss to people like me. The window will be closed. Things will be WORSE.

Google is still there. Though, censored, the smell of freedom and demo**cy can still leak in. That’s why I support Google.

Die in vain, or live up against the reality. I choose later.

To peace:

I can confirm your words. They are back, and most of them with green-cards.

to Charbax:

google.com back in China redirects to the same server of google.cn. So the information is still screened.

You say 5% of Chinese are communists. You know how many of them join this party out of personal belief? Most of my friends join that GOD damned party because they could take the benefication when applying for govment and state-owned company jobs.

This party is corrupted and the belief is gone. ( a good thing anyway)

People are not that stupid any more.

It’s really strange of you to pointing your angry finger to the rest of the world while somebody is sitting on your head.

Don’t blame Chinese. We don’t actually VOTE for that shit gov!

To Wei:

It’s so reassuring to see people like you who hate their country. I suppose the U.S. has nothing to be afraid of China after all.

It seems what I’ve heard about the Chinese all along is true - its people would trade its citizenship away for $100.

#69: I think I have just proved my point regarding the degree of cruelty of the Chinese Communists.
————————————————–
Lincoln did not tolerate those separatists in US, and we Chinese also will not tolerate any separatist in China. If we’re evil, Lincoln was also evil. And I am not a communist party member! Not only communist members, but nearly all the Chinese cannot tolerate those traitors of our Chinese nation. If you come to China, you will know that. Ever a foreign teacher in our college held a point of view like you, but after several talks, he knows China much better now.

Also, patriotism is not nationalism.

to IEW:

For free, man, not 100$.

It’s not the country that I hate. It’s the gov. I’m afraid this hatred growing among the people would one day upset the country. I’m afraid!

BTW:you can’t be an American. You’re just another brain-washed Chinese. Pathetic!

Wei, all of the Falun Gong practitioners I know in Australia are good people. They are all kind and follow the principles of the practice (Truthfulness – Compassion – Forbearance) in their daily lives. I am sure the practitioners in China are no different. Perhaps your opinion of them is based on the Chinese government’s propaganda rather than personal experience. I also know the practice is taught free of charge. There is no money involved.

As for not deserving people’s concern… Falun Gong practitioners in China are victims of an 8 year persecution by the CCP. During this time thousands have been tortured to death. There is also extremely strong evidence to suggest that detained Falun Gong practitioners have been used by the CCP as the primary source for the lucrative organ trade in China. Since the persecution of Falun Gong in 1999, there was an increase of 41,500 organ transplants in China that had no other verifiable source.

If anyone is deserving of people’s sympathy and support, it is Falun Gong.

IEW:
It’s people like you who’re holding the country back. You popular and extreme ideology will pull it into hell.
May justice and freedom prevailing.
Freedom is not American, nor European. It belongs to the whole world.

to Jason:
I understand that. It’s not from propagenda where I got to know them. I knew many of them during daily life.
And I must admit that most practitioners are good, certainly like what you said. But the guys who organize them are not so good as you might think.
They collected much money from each practioners, even when those people are so poor.
Comparing christainity in China with FLG, you will find that christains never lure people for money. But FLG here is always asking for money.

To Jason:
Certainly, persecution of FLGs should be condemned. But I guess before our captured reporters is released, the freedom of speech is assured. Any outside pressure on that would simply backfire.
A dangerous trend now is that the gov began to use nationalism or patriotism as a counter-reaction to any demand requesting social advance.

I am sure the practitioners in China are no different.
————————————————————————
How can you be sure? In order to win your support and sympathy, they can pretend to be something like that.

I just can understand why there are so many fellow-Chinese enjoy brain-washing, get used to those corrupted fat officials, feel at easy when the whole nation is raped a few people and ignore the pain and tears around you while always angry at the distant, small and democratic island and can’t help to wage a war?
We Chinese culture isn’t that bloodlust.

What a concept !
Because you are american, you feel right to point some country and or is government has “evil”.
Well let me tell you what :
A lot, if not zillion people in the world are tired of this “american attitude”.
It is not even funny anymore to read and hear such jugment from people like you who lives in a country that torture, murder, pollute, do not respect citizen privacy right …..
So clean the front of your house first, then we PEOPLE may listen to you.