December 19, 2006

Peerflix Swaps One Problem For Another

Michael Arrington

48 comments »

After a year long beta period and another year of operation, Peerflix is ditching its barter model of swapping DVDs. Until today, users swapped DVDs in the Peerflix marketplace, and the company took a $.99 transaction fee for the exchange. Any DVD was as good as any other, and the result was that people only put the stuff they really didn’t want on the site, hoping to swap it for a new release. The price for any DVD was effectively the same. You just had to find a sucker to take yours off of you.

In January 2006 Peerflix announced 100,000 trades. In a press release today that number had grown to just 250,000, suggesting that the company has recognized just $250,000 in revenue over the last two years.

This Model Didn’t Work

Money exists, of course, because a barter economy doesn’t work very well. Peerflix won awards at tech conferences for their model, but users didn’t take to it with nearly as much enthusiasm. Peerflix was on a long, gentle slide into obscurity, slowing burning their venture dollars.

Hey, Let’s Use Money

Good companies change strategic direction when the writing is on the wall. Peerflix just did that, creating a virtual currency on the site and putting a price on every DVD. If you send a DVD to someone, they pay you a set price based on an algorithm created by Peerflix. When you receive a DVD, you pay the sender the set price. There is no negotiation, and Peerflix takes a $0.99 transaction fee. You have to have money in your account in order to get a DVD, so you either have to send out DVD first, or add to your account with a credit card. I put $20 in my account to test the system, but couldn’t find a DVD I wanted. Perhaps the new system needs more time to ferment. Users can cash out of the Peerflix currency at any time.

Swapping One Problem For Another

Market economies work (see eBay), but Peerflix didn’t adopt a market system. They ditched a barter economy for a command and control system, where Peerflix uses a proprietary algorithm to determine the value of a DVD. That won’t work - eBay will always have a more efficient system for quickly equalizing supply and demand. Peerflix will constantly be tinkering with their pricing algorithm, while eBay lets its users do all the work.

This is easy criticism to give, but in reality Peerflix couldn’t adopt a market pricing system. If they had, there would be little to distinguish them from eBay to keep users going there. Their solution - adopting an inferior model - does give them the differentiation they need. But in the long run my bet is that they continue to burn those VC dollars.

Speaking of swapping sites, anyone hear any news about Swaptree? They went into private beta in June and I haven’t heard a word out of them since then.

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Comments

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  1. Jason M. Lemkin

    Anyone remember BigVine?

  2. Michael Arrington

    was that the big Kleiner backed company that raised $100m and fell apart?

  3. Ralph Dagza

    Baterbee? anyone?

  4. Darren Stuart

    Barter does work in certain areas. In the Uk there is something called Barter card and its a B2b service.

    However they make money by charging real money commision for the transaction.

    I think in they would have been better offering a years worth of free service with and then charging a small flat annual fee afterwards.

  5. Janson

    These people need to take an Econs 101 course and learn the foolishness of replacing a solution (money) with a problem (barter).

  6. Johnathan Millner

    Michael, there is a factual error in your article: “Any DVD was as good as any other” and “The price for any DVD was effectively the same”.

    Peerflix had Peerbux, their own currency. New DVDs cost more than old DVDs, meaning you did not need to wait for a sucker, rather for someone willing to spend the Peerbux.

  7. Sean

    A better business model. A different business too!

    http://www.iRegift.com

  8. Mike

    DVD swapping first, then comes books, gadgets?

    -Mike
    Tech Tutorial: http://www.hotcoding.com

  9. matthew

    from my experience, la la is having the same sort of “people only put the stuff they really didn’t want on the site” problem.

  10. Adrian Keys

    Michael - I think you are dead right. Good to see the company changing its strategy but the time proven concept of free enterprize and its success has obviously eluded Peerflix. Ah…the laws of supply and demand…

    Maybe they were all asleep in Economics class…but then lets give them some time…this is Web 2.0 and anything is possible!

  11. Khang Toh

    I think Peerflix can overcome their limited inventory by integrating with a 3rd party using their existing web services. (think harder guys)… User experience is still not there yet… They need an easier way for users to filter sort DVD results.

  12. Mike Keliher

    How is this different - functionally - from LaLa, the music-CD trading site? I love the hell out of LaLa, and it seems to be based in the same ideas. Is there something fundamentally different about Peerflix, or does the model just not work the same with DVDs?

    Is it because you can rip and re-trade CDs so easily, but it’s harder with DVDs? (Not that I do that, of course, but I’m sure one or two people do…)

  13. Chris

    I’m surprised by the negative review. I signed up for Peerflix last spring and have kept track of it but never really used it until now. I think that this new version is really interesting and I think can be quite successful. Peerflix in my opinion has huge benefits over Ebay:

    1. They guarantee your DVD sales and buys so you don’t get screwed over by fraudulent Ebayers (despite their good rankings).
    2. They have a standardized shipping method that keeps mailing DVDs simple and price consistent.
    3. DVDs are added to the database by UPC so you always can make sure you’re adding the right DVD and it has all of the cover art, info, etc included on their website.
    4. You can list all of the movies you own and want right on the site and they make it easy for you to sell and buy DVDs. Buying and particularly selling DVDs on Ebay is a much more burdensome and time-intensive process.

    I do wish that you could adjust the prices of the DVDs though. They could list the suggested and then give buyers and sellers the option to increase or lower their bid/ask prices as they see fit depending if they want to wait a long time to get a better price or if they just want a quick sale.

    Finally, in the past not all of the DVDs were worth exactly the same as on LaLa, rather they were rated a 1, 2 or 3 depending on their estimated value.

  14. Nathan Kaiser

    I did an interview with one of the founders of PeerFlix. We talked about some of these very issues:

    http://www.npost.com/interview.jsp?intID=INT00127

  15. SD_Chris

    We have a great FREE model going on at http://www.SwitchDiscs.com

    We aren’t VC funded or have the marketing/PR power to explode like Peerflix or lala but we are steadily growing strong with a pretty addicted group of users who are spreading the word for us.

    There’s something pretty BIG in the works that I’m hoping we will have ready to go early 2007 that is not only going to make trading stuff on the internet really easy but is going to have a positive effect on the “Planet”.

    So we might not have the VC funding like the two “big dogs” and get all the attention but we have something coming worth talking about…keep an eye on us!

    cheers,
    Chris

    “use more…waste less!”

  16. Adam

    The model of trading discs online should work, i dont know the price of shipping but if netflix does it, it cant be that expensive. The only problem is that most people buy movies that they want to keep. Where as music you might buy an album have 2-4 good songs feel robbed and than want to see if you cant get something else for it. The ripping part is also a valid point. When the HD format for DVD’s becomes more mainstream people will be looking to get rid of their old stuff for new, maybe than there will be more of a traders market. Games should be successful because most have very little replay value. With the price of games today it makes alot of sense.

    SD_Chris continued success with your site, I am interested to see what you mean by a positive effect on the “planet”.

  17. Rodger

    We’ve recently launched a private beta of iLetYou at http://www.iletyou.com, an online rental community for both DVDs and video games.

    Despite its drawbacks, people see hope for the barter model as do I. Barter does have a problem in really scaling up that Matthew and Adam mention: you only list items that you don’t want anymore, effectively less desirable items. However, a vibrant barter community can play a complimentary role to the efficient eBay economy - like Chris mentioned, there’s at least some friction with eBay payments that can be removed.

    The biggest differences between the barter models today and the iLetYou rental model are:

    1) Solving the desirability of listed items problem for significantly increased availability of items and
    2) Offering a free market platform similar to eBay - pricing and terms are set by store and per item for a more efficient market

    If you’ve got movies and games, you can make money or credit. If you want to get a movie or game quick, you’ll find it at iLetYou. It’s our continued goal to remove friction and enable stores and renters to find each other on their terms - from DVDs to HD-DVDs to PS3 and Wii games.

    Look out for us in 2007, visit http://www.iletyou.com and please feel free to ping us with any questions.

    Happy holidays and cheers,

    Rodger

  18. Alex Bosworth

    First nail the basics. I signed up with Peerflix and never received any mailers. I emailed them to get more mailers, no response. Netflix just works and has a killer distribution platform, which is why they are still around.

  19. Josiah

    $250,000 ? What a complete waste of time…oh the poverty!

    I can’t think of the last time I made 250K in two years…ah those were the days, eating ramin noodles, begging for spare change outside of Starbucks and scrimping to just go out to the movies or to buy a new pair of socks. What a waste of time.

    /sarcasm

    Seriously folks, I know it doesn’t compare to the other big market success’s but 250K is nothing to sneeze at, unless their costs exceed that (which they probably do in order to pay for their executive BMW’s and fancy offices, oh well) Hey if they charged $3 that 250K would be er…..750k!

  20. Fashion Industry Ceo

    i will stick with netflix!

  21. pwb

    PeerFlix always struck me as wholly asinine.

  22. Adam

    Josiah you said it when you said made 250k in 2 years, the 250k is just revenue. If it was profit than i may agree with you. When you have probably a couple of people working, and need place to house them, and computers and bills to pay that money is just not enough. They are lucky the venture capital guys havent tried to pull the plug on them yet.

  23. sudhir jha

    Rodger,

    I checked iLetYou and like the concept but am not sure it can be legal. I didn’t think I could rent my personal collection (some of which I may have paid as little as 4-5 dollars if bought used) and make money from that. Doesn’t it come with “can only be used at home and for no commercial purposes” warning? Othewise this can be a very lucrative market.

    I am sure you must have done the research and found some loophole before starting the site. Can you (or some one else) shed some light?

    Thanks,
    Sudhir

  24. Rodger

    Hi Sudhir,

    Great, thanks. It’s not a loophole so much as just the way that copyright law works. The first sale doctrine allows rental and resale of items once the first copy of a copyrighted work has been legally acquired. Copyright law only restricts rental of phonographic recordings (music) and computer software, hence you don’t see rental outlets for either.

    As such, you have just as much legal right to rent your DVDs and video games you legally own as does a corporation or any other company. And yes, hopefully that can be very lucrative for many people.

    The “home use only” clause means you can not screen the movie (bought or rented) for commercial purposes - its usage is for home viewing only.

    Thanks,

    Rodger

  25. Josh

    Gamershare is another trading website exclusively for video games that I think is worth a mention. Check ‘em out at http://www.gamershare.com

    Any model can work as long as it can create value and capture mindshare, which is what Netflix and Ebay has proven over and over again.

  26. emre

    Web sites like Peerflix are great platforms for testing new economic theories. They should have been more adventurous!

  27. John Moore

    So their next round of VC funding will be for lawsuits? lol

  28. SD_Chris

    John,

    Why do you say that?

    cheers,
    Chris

  29. Concerned

    Heh - I love how they make news by copying what ebay, half, and swapsimple have been doing for years. They argue it makes selling easier, with their Muse database of items, info, photos, etc. but I’ll still stick to ebay and it’s international audience for selling my stuff, and places like swapsimple for trading.

  30. John Moore

    Because of this quote in the news Chris.

    “There would be no reason to own the patent unless we intended to flex our muscles around it,” said Billy McNair, Peerflix’s chief executive. McNair, who also is a lawyer, believes the patent will cut a broad swath, particularly as more peer-to-peer networks are formed online to swap goods and serices.

    I think it’s funny they bought the patent for exchanging online when it looks like they’re going into the Buy/Sell business now.

  31. Neil

    um..make money w hile you can from this model is my advice.

    I think the model of trading physical media is going to be short lived. Why, well frankly it’s just a buit of a pain in the a**e to send out a DVD when you can download one in the same time, and for less. Obviouly as local bandwidth speeds up, this model dies faster.

    By the way, is there is a possiblility to trade rights to purchased media? (i.e. swap downloads?)

  32. SD_Chris

    John,

    Interesting quote from Mr. McNair. But that would have to be some pretty BIG patent covering A LOT of things because I know everyone out there right now has their own little twist on how things work.

    Plus you are right…they are no longer a “swap” site in the purest sense because members are now selling and buying just like people do on eBay.

    cheers,
    Chris

    http://www.SwitchDiscs.com

  33. Mark Hampton

    As far as I can tell, what Peerflix has done is open the door to non-traders to also bring their DVD’s into the network, expanding the number of titles available to people who use peerflix as a way to watch lots of movies cheaply.

    1. The barter system is left perfectly intact
    2. People can Sell DVD’s (without trading) to the library for all the traders
    3. Those people can make money (and it’s WAAY easier to list a movie on PF than anywhere else, it’s just that you have to settle for the PF price
    4. Peerflix is still the only swap site that insures the trades (you can’t lose - unlike ebay, switchdiscs, and all the others)

    Peerflix Remains the cheapest way to get lots of dvd’s unless you can get more than 13 dvd’s per month on a 3 out plan at Netflix, and if you ever want to watch less than 13 movies a month (like most people) you are throwing money away using netflix.

    The way I see it, the only effect this new system will have on a service that I already loved is that I will have access to more movies.

  34. SD_Chris

    Mark,

    Very poetic post.

    But Peerflix is NOT the only site that insures the trades. My site SwitchDiscs.com guarantees ALL trades so I know of at least one other site even though you say Peerflix is the only one. :)

    cheers,
    Chris

    http://www.SwitchDiscs.com

  35. David Mackey

    I tried Peerflix, but gave up b/c I could never be the first person to respond to a request, and didn’t really get DVDs I wanted, plus I didn’t want to deposit money into the system to make the trade - I think they will need to use ad revenue if they want to make the system work.

  36. Richard Jeffries

    Just looked up Peerflix’s world Comscore #’s for November - they had a tiny 135,000 unique visitors. These guys need to figure out how to get more users to ever stay afloat - introducing fancy patents and new features will mean nothing if they have no user base - they may want to concentrate on marketing / bizdev as opposed to spending 80% of their efforts on PR and talking about how much money they raised.

  37. M. Last

    I’ve had nothing but problems with peerflix–everything from extreme waits to blatant mailing DVDs that I never ordered! Never again. A few friends of mine have had problems as well. I live in Canada so maybe its different for US citizens.

    The bottom line is I do not trust Peerflix and I don’t want to give them my business anymore, no matter how many”improvements” they make to their system. I feel ripped off and betrayed and my experience with their customer service department has been very unhelpful.

  38. Neige Wilson

    I can’t rave enough about SwitchDiscs!!! AWESOME free site with cross-border trading! Would highly recommend checking it out - I was with Peerflix up until last year, and I can’t believe I was paying for a service I could receive for free. I can’t tell you how many mediocre movies I suffered through while waiting for the elusive “top priority” movies to arrive.

  39. John...

    Just to note it, GameTZ.com has been around longer than ANY of these sites (over a decade now) and allows free swapping of DVDs plus games, books, and music CDs too. There is no “currency” — you just list what you have and make deals with other members through the offer system. plus they have almost 4000 ACTIVE users (that have actually signed on and used the system in the last 2 months). Too many other sites on there claim all of these users and then turn out to have only a tiny portion that actually USE the site. Stating that you have 10,000+ members means nothing if 95% of them haven’t used the site in half a year…

    - John…

  40. R. J. Fujan

    [matthew December 19th, 2006 at 6:31 am from my experience, la la is having the same sort of “people only put the stuff they really didn’t want on the site” problem.]

    That is not a problem. Thank God we are not all alike, neither are our tastes in entertainment. The stuff I don’t want to keep in my collection, may be just the thing you need for yours! My collection is so large now, that when I get a new DVD, I have to sacrifice one I like to keep it. When it was a swap system, I could do it easier because I knew I could always request it again down the road.

  41. L Wells

    I was a pretty heavy trader with Peerflix. Since the change it seems to be crashing. Customer Service is nothing but a joke. Guarantee?? What guarantee?? It seems to have disappeared. Movies appeared on want lists that ppl didn’t ask for. Peerflix customer support would insist the ‘customer’ put the movie on the list and would do nothing about it. The conversion of peerbuxs to cash was a joke! The amount they gave for each peerbux would not even buy the cheapest movie available. There are a lot of unhappy ppl there just waiting to cash out and get out of the mess Peerflix has made!! There have been several mentions on their backlot forum about lawsuits.

  42. Whats the frequency Kenneth

    L Wells, you are correct. Those things happened to me personally (though I have to admit with enough pestering, I got credited back for their screw-ups, and I think the idea of a lawsuit is silly.) I cut my losses and cashed out.

  43. Larry Gilbert

    Correction on the statement “Users can cash out of the Peerflix currency at any time”: There are restrictions, according to Peerflix’s own help info. “In order to get to the ‘Request Cashout’ page, you need to have more than $100 in trade cash present in your account, and you can’t have requested a cashout in the current calendar month. If you live in the US, you need to have a bank account on file with us in order to access this page.” I suppose it’s possible to put in enough money to bump oneself over the $100 limit and then cash everything out, but that’s still jumping through hoops.

    It *is* a difficult system to like, because things do seem to settle like gravity into a resting state where the DVDs on your have-list are ones with lots of supply but negligible demand, and the DVDs on your want-list are ones in high demand but short supply.