October 28, 2006

My CarsDirect Experience

Michael Arrington

128 comments »

A couple of months ago I decided I was going to buy a new car, but there is almost nothing I like less than negotiating with car salespeople. The first thing they do is try to get your name and phone number. They will then begin calling you a day or two after you leave to ask how your search is going, and try to get you back to the dealership. If you do go back to the dealership, the second trip is when the hard selling starts. The guy you already know is the “nice guy,” who’s going to “work with his boss to get you a really good deal.” The boss is a guy who tries to belittle you and make you feel cheap for negotiating and passing on the upgrades. It’s basic psychological warfare, and they do it multiple times per day, so nothing throws them off. But for the buyer it just adds to the overall cost of buying a car.

So for the third time I’ve skipped the dealer hassle and bought a new car through CarsDirect. I’ve researched other services, including autobytel and a very good program offered by Costco, but CarsDirect was better than anyone else on pricing. I’ve put my notes on the entire experience below, including research and test driving vehicles.

My car buying experience was a three day process and involved almost no stress and a minimum amount of dealer direct contact.

The TechCrunch Recommended Car Buying Process:

1. Figure out the basic type of car and price range using online tools (Kelley Blue Book is what I used)

2. Double check on the car’s rating with Consumer Reports. My parents have a subscription and I called them a bunch of times to compare different models

3. Test drive the car. This is tricky, because you have to go to a dealer and interact with them. They are going to photocopy your drivers license before you test drive the car. If it has your correct address, tell them its dated and give them a different address. This is to avoid the junk mail they’ll be sending you. They are also going to ask for your phone number. Don’t say no, because that will make them act weird. Just give them a fake number. If you do give them your real phone number, make sure you tell them you’ve already bought a different brand car from somewhere else and are no longer in the market. Do not invite further conversation. Be firm with these people. Remember - all you want to accomplish is a test drive of the car, so don’t deal with their guilt trips and other tricks. Never, under any circumstances, sit down at a desk.

4. Once you know which car you want, all the hard work is done. You can go home and order your car online, while other poor souls try to negotiate with the dealer. They’re hopeful that they’ll get a good deal because they’ve printed out the Dealer Invoice and MSRP for the car, but trust me, after hours of negotiating they are still not going to get as good a deal as you are.

5. Go to CarsDirect and order your car. The price you will pay is stated clearly on the final page. A CarsDirect customer care person will call you in an hour or two to discuss your order and make sure you know all of the options. CarsDirect will then work with a local dealer to find your car at their price, and call you back when they’ve found it. They will also discuss leasing, financing and trade in options if you want to do that. I’ve found their leasing and financing terms to be very attractive (better than what my bank offered), but trade in values are terrible. Sell your own car.

6. Choose to have your car delivered to your home or office. They will do this for free or for a small fee, depending on where you live.

7. When the car is delivered, test drive it, sign the agreements (make sure you opt out of receiving marketing deals from unaffiliated third parties), write a check. The delivery people then leave, and you have your car. If there is an issue, you deal directly with the dealer.

Here’s how the process worked for me:

Last Sunday I test drove the Honda Pilot, Chevy Tahoe, Ford Explorer and the Acura MDX. I liked the Tahoe the best, but it gets the worst gas mileage and was the most expensive car. The Pilot was almost $20,000 cheaper than the Tahoe and gets 5 miles more per gallon on average. Quick call to mom and dad confirmed it was also the most highly rated. Choice made. Total time spent: 3 hours, including lunch.

On Monday I placed an online order with CarsDirect for a Honda Pilot. Dealer Invoice was $32,507 (that’s what the dealer pays), and MSRP was $36,040 (the recommended price). Anything above the invoice price is profit for the dealer. The CarsDirect price was $33,306. That leaves $800 in profit for the dealer and CarsDirect to split. Seems fair to me. An hour after I placed the order I had a ten minute conversation with a CarsDirect rep named John. I confirmed I wanted the car, discussed the pros and cons of buying a black vehicle with him, and he promised to call back when he found the car. Twenty minutes later he called back and said he found the car with the options and colors I wanted. He asked when I wanted it and if I wanted it delivered. I said “tomorrow, and yes please deliver it to my house”. Total time spent: about 30 minutes.

On Monday evening I called two local Honda dealers, told them I was going to buy through CarsDirect but would get it from them instead if they would match the price. Both said no. One laughed at me before saying no.

On Tuesday afternoon the car was delivered to my house by two very nice retired men. I test drove the car, took a picture, signed the paperwork and wrote a check. They left. Total time spent: 30 minutes.

Total time spent researching and buying a car: Four hours over a three day period. Total time spent negotiating: none. And I believe I got a better price than if I had tried negotiating with the dealers directly.

And I love my new car.

  • Sphere It

Trackbacks/Pings (Trackback URL)

  1. CarsDirect, Microsoft, FON, HomeSeer « Technically Speaking
  2. BrianAndPamela.com » How to buy a car the TechCrunch way…
  3. Austoon Daily » My CarsDirect Experience
  4. Kernel Mustard » Blog Archive » TechCrunch on CarsDirect
  5. One more reason to buy online - less “Dealer Direct Contact” « The WebShopBlog
  6. howardowens.com: media blog » Blog Archive » TechCrunch on no-hassle, low-price car buying
  7. Boost Your Credit » Blog Archive » Buying a car from cars direct
  8. THE SAVVY BOOMER
  9. The Bitt » How to Buy a Car from the Guy Who Invented The Google Business Model
  10. Remainders: 10/28/06 at The Blog Herald
  11. TechCrunch Japanese アーカイブ » 私のCarsDirectでの新車購入体験
  12. Howard Lindzon » My Dummest Investment Ever - Cars Direct
  13. Arrington is now officially an asshole at odd time signatures
  14. blackrimglasses.com » Blog Archive » Techcrunch » Blog Archive » My CarsDirect Experience
  15. Then again… « ConsensusBlog
  16. Somewhat Frank
  17. adult internet station tv

Comments

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  1. Jay

    Dang Mike, all along I was picturing you in a sleek BMW M5 or 911 Turbo lol. Cool post though.

  2. Louis

    Their site says they have 500,000 listings for used cars. Do you know where they get the listings - scraping dealer sites, feeds from dealers, private sellers advertising on their site? The search results seem to all be from dealers.

  3. kevin whited

    Anything above the invoice price is profit for the dealer.

    Actually, depending on the dealer holdback, the dealership can still make a profit on a car even if they sell it below the invoice price.

    I believe the dealer holdback for Honda models is 3%. Knowing that info can be very handy.

    I had a great experience using online buying directly through a volume Jeep dealership in my neighborhood a few years ago. There was minimal interaction with sales staff, and they wound up quoting me a price that was a couple hundred dollars above the invoice minus dealer holdback (yes, final price below dealer invoice). Hard to beat that.

  4. Tim O'Reilly

    Michael, there’s one bit about your post that bears thinking about. It’s Step 3. The reason you can get such a good deal from Cars Direct is that you are taking a service from the dealer (the test drive) that neither you nor Cars Direct has to pay the cost of. If you think long term, you realize that if everyone did what you recommend, the dealers would go out of business, and your process would no longer work.

    I wrote a piece about this in the context of online book buying a few years ago, entitled Buy Where You Shop. I agree that auto dealers have an absolutely awful sales process, and ought to be punished by the marketplace for it by people buying from people with better process (and some dealers really aren’t bad), but I would suggest that instead of using a dealer to test drive your car, you find a friend who has one, so that you aren’t using a costly service (dealer showroom, sales people, and cars available for test drive) that you have no intention of paying for.

    This is also the subject of my recent Radar post Getting the Market to Tell the Truth.

  5. Rob

    It must be nice to write a check for $33K like it’s nothing!

  6. Confused guy

    Mike Arrington says :
    Once you know which car you want, all the hard work is done. You can go home and order your car online, while other poor souls try to negotiate with the dealer.

    Jason Fried says :
    If you go to a store to test out a product then buy the product from that store.
    http://www.37signals.com/svn/p.....ate-advice

    I am confused :?

  7. JeepGuy

    I think that you left out one step that can save you even more. Take that price that Cars Direct was offering and email the dealerships directly. Make sure to only buy your car at the end of the month, and that the dealer responds with their price in an email. You can then forward it to other dealerships. Keep going until a couple of the dealers say “damn, that’s a good deal”, or they start selling you on their service department.

    I saved about $2000 off the Cars Direct price at the time when I purchased my new Jeep.

  8. Jerome

    I MUST comment on this, Mike, because you describe perfectly the trepidation most of us feel when going to a dealership hunting for a car. My mom was ready to get out of her Concorde, which had expensive sensor malfunctions. Since she has to brave a daily L.A. traffic commute I recommended she get a Toyota for better dependability. One Saturday I took time out to help her find a car - by the end of the day, I was pleasantly surprised we had it. My mom said she liked Avalons. First I grabbed the local phone book and made some calls (after putting on my battle armor) - not much luck. Then I jumped online and stumbled across a dealership I recommend to everyone in Southern CA. When we arrived to check out the color and test drive I was still on guard, but I got shocked. The experience felt more like going to Disneyland. With a relaxed NO pressure personality, our salesperson, Mitch, put us on a golf cart to drive into their massive holding structure - turns out they are the largest Toyota dealership in the world with over 5,000 cars on hand. Mitch was more like a consultant than a salesperson. It turns out they constantly break records in CUSTOMER SERVICE and sales, with a “customers for life” philosophy. This year they were on pace for over 30,000 cars. No haggling on price at all. We were already happy with the car, and Mitch said it was about 1K over dealer cost. Carsdirect may work well, but if you want a Toyota and a SURPRISING dealer experience in the LA area here is the info:

    http://www.longotoyota.com/en_US/

    3534 N. Peck Rd.
    El Monte, CA 91731
    1-800-619-8695

  9. Christian

    You are missing a big point here. Buying a car is one thing, but owning is a different.
    Although I really don’t hope that you will have any problem with your car, I would smile a bit, if you will bring your car for service or repair to the exact same dealer where you made the test drive and he will tell you: you bought online, so please make your service or repair also online!

    I agree with you that some dealers are a pain, because they make a bad job. But if they do their job right, and there are many good dealers out there, it’s much more than just buying a car, it’s establishing a relationship which you will appreciate.

    But with your behavior, you just take the best of both worlds, and this will not work out in long-time. It’s like buying your Windows CD in the streets of Hong Kong and then complain about a virus on that CD.

    A good job needs to be paid. And I guess you also appreciate your regular pay check. And so does the car sales guy.

  10. JoeB

    kevin whited head is correct. you didn’t get a great deal on that car.

    Indeed, there are several things included in the dealer invoice that are paid back to the dealer when they sell the car.

    You should *always* start from dealer COST, not dealer invoice. The invoice price already has plenty of fees that amount to profit included in the price. These include:

    * Factory hold back ( all dealers get this ), between 2%-5% of the price that is pure profit.

    * Factory rebates (you can find details of available rebates on several sites, again, pure profit, the factory pays the dealer this money when the car is sold).

    As well as others, remember these fees are already included in the “dealer invoice”. The deal will get these back.

    This site documents it well.

    http://www.carbuyingtips.com/car4.htm

    After using the above tips/site, I purchase a new Toyota Matrix for $16k, off the lot, new. Which at the time, was below the dealer invoice price. Sales person was really not happy, I sure was.

  11. JoeB

    And one more tip, do NOT buy any prepaid maintenence programs when you buy a new car (they usually last for 50k miles). It’s a rip-off. Most don’t actually cover the cost of the parts (like brakes), what you are basically paying for is an expensive oil change. Most dealers know that the bigger service requirements happen after 50k miles.

  12. Larry Velez

    I think that comparison shopping between retail and online stores is inevitable and the best retailers will find a good balance between the two. For all the Apple fans, Apple stores are a great place to touch and feel their products and I bet they don’t mind at all if people buy online.

    For Apple, Dell and other streamlined retailers - their pricing is pretty transparent and a future without commisioned sales people is an inevitable and probably happier world.

    The trick for businesses will be to give a customer a sense of satisfaction without having to negotiate on price. I say have open pricing and let the market reward or punish you based on pricing. If your only value proposition is price, your service or product quickly devolves into junk and , for first world countries, there is little demand for junk these days - all the basics are already at that level.

    So for Jason Fried and others who are annoyed that people are browsing retail stores and buying online, don’t worry the retail stores that sell anything other than essentials like food will be little more than glorified billboards in a few years.

  13. Dustin Wyatt

    Yeah, that’s not a great price. I don’t say this to get in a dig at you, I say it for others who are looking to buy a new car.

    Find out the dealer holdback, which is often substantial. I usually pay maybe $500 over dealers COST (which is not dealer’s invoice).

    Dealing with salespeople at dealerships is not hard. Do your research beforehand, tell them how much you are willing to pay, and then leave. This has not failed to get me the car I want.

    The internet salesman at most dealerships will even interact with you via email, so you don’t even have to get face to face with anyone till you’re ready to sign.

  14. Askar

    Good luck with the new car Mike. I’m glad that’ve taken your time to explain the process in detail. I’m sure CarsDirect will get some traffic and eventual sale after reading your experience.

    I agree with you that the car dealers are horrible to deal with. They always wanted to trick you and they definitely play the psychological warfare. That’s absolutely true.

    Good luck again.

  15. BG

    It’s been a while, but I bought my last car through Costco - a Volvo XC 70. I bought the car in late Sept. and the dealers were trying to sell all of the current year cars in anticipation of the arrival of next years cars. The Costco buying experience was great as they had pre-negotiated the price with local dealers and it was several thousand dollars (>$3k) below dealer invoice.

  16. Nathan

    It feels a bit off to use a dealership just for the test drive. Of course using carsdirect just for information is probably a different sort of trespass.
    This recommendation assumes you have alternate financing and don’t need to leverage a trade-in for a new car too.
    Really, the problem is that there isn’t a single best way. For a mass-produced mid-priced new car where the buyer is willing to handle financing on their own, you have a good plan. For the luxury buyer, this seems like a bad plan. For the used car buyer, this seems like a bad plan. For the good negotiator, this is a bad plan.

  17. Tim

    In regards to #3: One thing I was reading recently (on one personal finance blog or another) was…one way to potentially avoid the hassle (and annoyance) of test driving a car at a dealership is to get a weekend (or day) rental through any of the myriad rental places (Hertz, Budget, etc). It might cost a bit more, but daily rates seem reasonable enough to warrant not having some salesman from 1963 sitting next to you chatting you up….and you can take your time with the vehicle.

    Of course, it’s probably more difficult to get the model you’re looking for, but it seemed like a decent idea.

  18. Pam

    Kudos to Mike for standing up and trying to help people even though a lot of them are going to try shoot him down.

    I bought a Jeep from Carmax and can recomend the experience. I did online research for an hour then went to Carmax. In 3 hours at Carmax, I did a test drive on 2 cars, completed all the paperwork included a good price on a loan, unloaded my old car into the new one and drove away. They don’t send you junk mail, their sales people get same commission no matter which car they sell you and they are not allowed to pressure you at all. They won’t ask you to sit at a desk until you are ready to do paperwork. Their prices are fixed and very competitive, no negotiating and you can ifnd out price online or by phone before you go. Even the price for the old car was good, I don’t want to buy anywhere else now.

  19. overcast

    Is this site unusable by anyone else? All my searches timeout or hang.

  20. MrShoop

    There is definitely a moral issue in using the dealer to test drive knowing that you are not going to do business with them. You are wasting a salesman’s and dealer’s time and resources; it is a form of stealing. That most dealers and car salesmen are sketchy doesn’t justify it. If you choose to forgo the dealers for an online experience (which I totally support - working with dealers usually sucks) the onus is on you to find a way to drive the cars without using the dealer. Look for someplace that rents the car you want, or better find friends that have the car who can also be source of information. I think this is important not just for cars, but any online transaction. Maybe it is more clear with this example: You walk into the mom and pop fishing store - you talk to the owner for an hour about what he likes best, what’s the best value. You get stuff in your hands to see how it feels. Then at the end you say thanks for your time, now I know what I want. I’m driving over to wal-mart to buy it because it is cheaper there.

  21. mbrunet

    I’m not sure I agree with your point about going to try it out before by “using” a car salesman. I can’t dispute the fact that most of the tactics that these salesman use are somewhat, deceiving, but they still have to make a living.

    By trying out the car, and time wasting their time (you’re not going to close the sale with them) - they could actually be making a sale. And earn a living.

  22. Jimmy

    Awesome, nice ride.

    And now that you have a car with a picture, you can find out why FuelEmpire rocks so much. :)

    http://www.fuelempire.com

  23. Robert

    Here’s how I bought my new ‘03 350Z in Dec. ‘02, a couple of months after it was released when demand was incredible and markups over sticker were common:

    1. Found car on eBay at local dealer w/ no-reserve auction below sticker.

    2. Examined the car in the dealer’s showroom w/o talking to anyone. Test drove a different car at a different dealer that allowed test drives in the new Z…it was hard just to get a dealer to give test drives back then.

    3. Won the auction below sticker.

    4. Wrote dealer a check and declined all options/warranties/etc.

    Drove out of the dealer in the new car in less than 30 minutes…just the time to sign papers and decline all the extra BS. This was my best car buying experience ever…no haggling and no frustration at all, while getting a high-demand car below sticker.

    I suppose the dealer placed the new car on eBay due to X-mas…holidays are a slow time for car sales.

  24. Thund3rbox

    Why an SUV?

  25. Ryan

    Regarding #5 and the argument Jason Fried made:

    I think what Jason was talking about was when you go to say Best Buy and check out a camera, then go buy it on say Amazon. Best Buy spent time and money showing the camera and answering all the questions. Then you give your money to Amazon. However, this service sounds like the purchase is actually made from the dealership, but you are using Cars Direct to avoid the negotiations. So the dealership is still getting some money.

  26. Vinny

    My problem with the online experience is that I want to have a person to deal with when I have a car. I’m investing in a 5-10 year experience, and if there is a problem, I want to have a person to hold accountable.

    Dealerships can offer you loaners when your car goes in for service, and it will need service at some time or other. Dealerships will keep you up on recalls, etc. Dealerships offer personal service that, on an investment this significant, is worth some extra dollars.

    Does the experience stink? Absolutely! I just bought a Prius and hated the entire shopping experience. But I’ve already been in for service, and so far I’m pleased.

    I have also been the guy who shows up with a car bought elsewhere and had the dealer tell me “you have to have it serviced THERE.” It’s just not worth it.

    $2000 is probably my limit on ’stuff I’ll buy without seeing the guy.’

  27. Dave

    I would have waiting until next year as the Pilot will be all new for 2008. You will take a huge hit in deprecation.

  28. peter

    from what I see, I still think eBay.com/Motors has far better prices than CarsDirect. Compare it yourself :)

  29. Jay

    Having gone the similiar route for my last two car purchases, I can say that I will never buy from a dealer again. While I have not had direct experience with cars direct, I can say that an equally hassle free experience can be found at a place called http://www.cartelligent.com. Compare and see.

  30. Fred

    1) Anything “over invoice” is a good deal for the dealer, so the carsdirect deal wasn’t that good a deal. Invest more time, visit more dealers, and you’ll get a better deal — or, you can pay more like Our Hero because you’re too wimpy to negotiate. Our Hero thought he had a good deal, because he picked up the phone and proposed a price to a dealer. No dealer is going to give you a great price over the phone. You have to show some commitment, and show up at the dealership. That’s the game they play, and you have to play by their rules.
    2) Dealers don’t care where you bought your car, unless you bought a gray-market Mercedes, in which case Mercedes dealers have been known to refuse to service it. Dealers make most of their money on service, and it would be quite foolish for them to refuse your service business. So all this nonsense about “oh, the dealer won’t help you” is exactly that: nonsense.
    3) Morals? Is it moral for the dealer to propose a sticker price that’s ridiculously higher than what he’s prepared to accept? Why are we talking about morals? If your conscience bothers you, offer the lowest deal you got to the dealer from whom you originally grabbed the test drive. If he says “No deal,” you can sit in the front pew on Sunday morning without guilt.

  31. Louis-Eric

    I don’t see much of a problem with using the dealership at all; the dealer has a chance on pitching them during that time, calibrating for this particular type of “swooping” buyer. It is simply one more (last) chance for them to make a sale, as long as they are willing to write a few new pages in their sales manuals: it is clear that the prospect acting this way does so to avoid the kind of techniques that the salespeople already know. The customer may end up with a better deal than anticipated.

    As for time being wasted: I have never seen a line-up at a car salesperson’s desk; at best you are using dead time, at worst you are waiting a bit for current clients to be done before using up dead time.

  32. David Mackey

    I will keep CarsDirect in mind the next time I purchase a car. I made my first new car purchase in August of 2005. I purchased a Chevy Aveo LT Sedan from a local auto sales place called Stockburger Chevrolet.
    Before going to the dealers I spent some time reading websites on how to buy a car and visiting sites such as Edmunds.Com to discover what sort of car I wanted. The Chevy Aveo had high safety ratings, a low price, and good gas mileage - so I decided it would do. I visited several car sales locations, but ended up at Stockburger. I actually found that I was too defensive. They didn’t try to rip me off and I got the car for right around invoice - including $800 trade-in for a dying Suzuki Samurai I had.

  33. Greg Spira

    I’ve used CarsDirect and similar sites to get quotes that I ask my local dealer to match. If he comes close, which he usually does, I buy from him. Am I therefore stealing from carsdirect’s bandwidth? The logic of the folks who say that test driving a vehicle at a dealer and buying online is stealing say that it is. Please. Many people test drive at one dealer and buy from another dealer who offers a cheaper price. That must evidently be stealing, too.

  34. dumbfounder

    I think buying a car from the dealer is fun. I am usually a very nice guy, but when dealing with car salesman the gloves come off. No remorse. No regrets. It can take many hours to beat them down, but I think it is fun!

  35. Geoff

    So Michael Arrington condones flagrant lying and misrepresentation? Makes me look at TechCrunch in a different light.

  36. Tyler Wright

    Michael, you need to put some rims on that bad boy. I look forward to a post on your hunt and gather for wheels online!

  37. Some Guy

    Wow, lots of car (or other) salesmen complaining about how evil this guy is. You guys just can’t turn it off can you?

  38. Louis-Eric

    I’ll add some more to my past comments (all the while applauding Greg Spira): having an open market economy with buyer freedom means being able to look at all options: that it takes time from retailers (online or off) is just part of the cost of doing business. Car companies (and other manufacturers) know that there is value ins imply showcasing inventory in the most central and flashy way possible; this is part of their advertising; trying it is the first level of engagement towards an acquisition. People work behind and are paid for facilitating this process, either directly or through flamboyant markups. The guilt stuff is really out of place here. I applaud Michael for his lucidity.

  39. CHEF-D

    Yuo all have missed the key point:

    The amount of time that Michael saved by not wasting time negotitating with dealers (i.e. email, phone, whatever) is more valuable to him than the marginal $1000 to $1500 he would’ve saved by doing so.

    $1000 additional savings on the price that he paid is roughly 3%. Yawn. Perhaps big bucks to the trolls that visit this board. Not to a hustla like M. Arrington.

    Meanwhile, visit a few of the ad links on his page and give our guy some support, eh? He’s enjoying his Saturday at the park while some other folk are in a dingy sales office at the local dealer “breaking down” a salesman.

  40. Daniel

    Mike, you are now obliged to frequent http://www.hondapilot.org, excellent community & resource for the Pilot owners.

  41. Steve

    As far as warranty servicing: there is absolutely no issue with buying online. Manufacturer warrranty work is gladly handled by any dealer; the manufacturer pays the dealers for this work and it is a big profit center for dealers (the service departments typically are more profitable than new car sales).

  42. nemrut

    Mike, good work. Althought i have to brag that my recent buying experience only took about 2.5hrs including test drive (but not lunch ;-).

    I also got a quote through Cars direct and immed emailed the Internet sales reps around the Bay Area. Fortunately for me, many of them are used to corresponding/doing deals viam email.. Within a day i received several responses, went in to take a test drive, do paperwork and drove away with a new Lexus IS350. It was the most hassle-free car buying experience i ever had.

    More and more dealers are realizing that the buyers today are much more savvy and have little patience for the sales bs. If they can provide a great car-buying experience, they will more than make up for inflated commissions through maint/svc and customer loyalty.

  43. Todd

    I tried using CarsDirect but got a lower price when I contacted a few dealers directly. I wanted to give CarsDirect my business, but they couldn’t match the price. From my experience, some savvy car dealers do a lot of Internet business and understand that a lot of people want a no-hassle experience and the lowest price up front. I drove to the dealer that quoted a great price, the car checked out, and I was out of there in less then an hour.

  44. Nate

    Others have commented on this, but dealer invoice IS NOT what the car costs to the dealer. The last car I bought (a Subaru WRX) I paid essentially invoice (after refusing to discuss any price higher.) I still don’t know if I truly got a good deal, as I don’t know what the dealer holdback was. They could easily have make $1,500 off of me.

  45. Rush

    I wish I had done this when I bought my car. Next time I will give it a try. Thanks for the article!

  46. posiguy

    This post really begs the question, “Is negotiating with a car salesperson for a new/used car always a painful process?” As a result, we get into .

    The situation Michael describes is a distributive negotiation scenario. Basically, the car dealer and the car buyer are trying to slice the pie at the expense of each other. Essentially, this is a pie-slicing negotiation process. I agree that these situations are painful for both parties, but I don’t think that all car negotiations are like this.

    Rather, I believe that some car negotiations can be integrative. Basically, the car dealer and the car buyer are trying to enlarge the pie. Essentially, this is a pie-enlarging negotiation process. For example, if the car sales person throws in a service agreement, then the buyer will agree to a later delivery, etc. These types of negotiations are usually just not about price.

    I don’t think that there is one right way to buy a car. I definitely think that you can get good deals from dealerships. The main thing any car buyer should remember is that alternatives are always good. In Michael’s case, his alternative was the quote through Cars Direct. However, this quote may not have considered things like maintenance.

    In the end, your negotiation power comes from increasing your BATNA and doing your homework before entering into any negotiation process. (i.e. what is the reputation of the other party, what is my alternative to negotiating with this party, do i want an extended service agreement, etc.)

  47. posiguy

    This post really begs the question, “Is negotiating with a car salesperson for a new/used car always a painful process?” As a result, we get into negotiation theory.

    The situation Michael describes is a distributive negotiation scenario. Basically, the car dealer and the car buyer are trying to slice the pie at the expense of each other. Essentially, this is a pie-slicing negotiation process. I agree that these situations are painful for both parties, but I don’t think that all car negotiations are like this.

    Rather, I believe that some car negotiations can be integrative. Basically, the car dealer and the car buyer are trying to enlarge the pie. Essentially, this is a pie-enlarging negotiation process. For example, if the car sales person throws in a service agreement, then the buyer will agree to a later delivery, etc. These types of negotiations are usually just not about price.

    I don’t think that there is one right way to buy a car. I definitely think that you can get good deals from dealerships. The main thing any car buyer should remember is that alternatives are always good. In Michael’s case, his alternative was the quote through Cars Direct. However, this quote may not have considered things like maintenance.

    In the end, your negotiation power comes from increasing your BATNA and doing your homework before entering into any negotiation process. (i.e. what is the reputation of the other party, what is my alternative to negotiating with this party, do i want an extended service agreement, etc.)

  48. Clint Kennedy

    Votes for Bush twice and now buys an SUV……please Mike stop!!!!

  49. Jason

    I am so sick of high-pressure sales in general. I recently tried to find out if it would be adventageous for my Grandmother to switch to high-speed and the Verizon representative has been calling her house harassing her for days. It’s all a big game to them, and we’re the prey.

  50. Michael Arrington

    To those commenting on the appropriateness of going to a dealer to test drive the car (including Tim O’Reilly), and then buying online: I do not feel any guilt about doing this, because I called the dealer and asked if they’d match the price. They wouldn’t. I mentioned this in the post

    I don’t think you can build an arguement that says that once I’ve test driven a car at a particular dealer, I am obligated to buy from that dealer at any price.

    The market will sort this out anyway. If the trend continues, dealers will either move to a set price per car (they should anyway) that competes with the online services, start charging for a test drive, or the manufacturers will need to subsidize dealers in order to make them profitable and keep them around.

  51. Rob H.

    It’s called the cost of doing business. The car salesman is not some poor guy trying to make a living, he knows the business and what’s up. Anyone working any retail job with heavy competition knows that a large percentage of customers will take all the “freebies” they can with no intention of buying anything. Sometime those freebies are just information and sometimes it’s a test drive. When I worked at Circuit City, we knew that the most inquisitive customers were likely just getting info before making their purchase at the cheeper, yet understaffed and unhelpful Best Buy across the street. You were obligated to help the customer no matter what because they were wtill a potential sale.

  52. vintner

    Up till my last car I always bought through a “broker”. These were independent businesses who advised you on cars, they had you go and test drive at a dealer’s, then you told the broker what model, color, and options you wanted. The broker found the car from some dealer, inspected it, and had it driven or trucked to your delivery point. You never had to talk to the scum at the dealership.

    Last car, a friend persuaded me that a luxury dealer in Silicon Valley really knew how to sell over the internet by email, so I tried dealing. It was repulsive; the “internet salesman” is no better than the rest of the dealership people.

    What Michael Arrington describes is nothing more or less than a “web broker”, the same people who have been around for decades, just using current technology.

    (The business about “cheating the dealer” is rubbish. Thanks to all the government regulation in the auto-dealing business, a sale has to be made through an authorized dealer anyway. The online broker buys the car from a dealer under a special arrangement that makes you the “first owner of record”, and earns its money by charging you more than the price to the broker. Collectively, the dealers sell ALL of the cars and provide ALL of the test drives. The brokers are just independent salespeople who in effect get paid the commission that otherwise would have gone to a dealership employee. And the commenters who think they “have a relationship” with their dealer are really fools.)

  53. Jeff

    congrats on your new car, but I agree I think you could have gotten a better deal without a lot of effort.

    I’m not sure if you said you were looking at 06’s or 07’s, but Honda is offering a $2500 kick back to dealers right now. So even if you paid invoice, the dealer would be making $2500 (+ any doc fees, which are typically profit as well).

    Edmunds.com is a great resource for car buyers — it’s super easy to find the invoice price, any rebates or deals going on and figure out a reasonable price that gives the dealer like $500 profit.

    If you go in knowing that number upfront, the rest of the process is simple.

  54. Steve

    Edmunds doesn’t show dealer cash back.

  55. Michael Arrington

    Jeff, that’s good information, but that is exactly what I DON’T want to do - go in to a dealer armed with information, and fight it out. I have much better things to do with my time, even if its just playing video games.

  56. Todd

    I agree that edmunds.com is probably the best place online to research before purchase, even if you end up buying on CarsDirect - sites like edmunds.com and kbb.com can help you make informed decsions.

  57. David Dalka

    “They will also discuss leasing, financing and trade in options if you want to do that. I’ve found their leasing and financing terms to be very attractive (better than what my bank offered), but trade in values are terrible.”

    Point of information: Did you *really* finance this car?

  58. Tim B

    Services like Cars Direct help eliminate market inneficiencies. But, the deal the writer got was probably not much better than he would have got had he gone to the dealer armed with data and some resolve. There is some justification for paying a premium to avoid the messy uncomfortable dealings with commissioned sales folks, but don’t be fooled into thinking that he achieved the best possible deal. The service he describes is just a Internet enabled verision of the old car buying services that have been around for years. You’re paying someone else to do the negotiating.

  59. Edwin

    Ok i have a question. You make more money a month then most americans, but you still by a honda pilot? Wht don’t you buy a more expensive car, i mean you work hard for your money and you should buy the luxury you deserve.

  60. Jerome

    Edwin,

    He DID consider buying a more expensive car - one that cost about $20,000 more if fact. Read the post.

  61. Blaze

    I honestly pegged you for more a M3 kinda guy. Ah well.

  62. Darrin

    I read Tim O’Reilly’s point as well as Mike Arringtons rebuttal. At the end of the day, one can look at this as the Economics in an Information Age Society, whereas, it’s supply & demand of information. He who holds the most information at the current period of time will be able to challenge (in this case Mike’s “Demand” for a new car) Demand by manipulating not only price and expectations. In this case, Mike was able to shift demand given the value of information he had. It’s interesting that people questioned his tactic, when the same process can be done not only for cars but also other products. You all have already done it for the laptops & desktops you have now. Take for example, if you were in the market for a new laptop (with specifics). You may want to look at Best Buy, a manufacturer (Toshiba), or a competitor (Circuit City or Target). Using a site similar too Cars Direct (I don’t know of any off hand that does what CarsDirect does –maybe that will be Mikes next post) you can follow the same process of buying a computer. You can test drive it by just going to Best Buy! You will also get the laugh in the face from Target becuase this company will not & does not price match (that’s a whole different story). At the end of the day, it’s the value of the “Information” that bought the car. Cars Direct I could say was worth a savings of $2,734 & at $683.50 / HR for 4 hours. Now go buy some rims!

  63. J F Kennedy

    Dude,
    I think he went with the pilot because it was less price and better gas mileage. I would of went with the Range Rover Sport myself.

  64. suv sux

    Sounds pretty cool … although why anyone would buy an oversized SUV in this day and age is beyond me. not attractive, not practical, not stylish, not as fuel efficient as a car could be.

  65. Minh

    For everyone concerned about using the dealership to test drive, I would just think of it as giving a prime opportunity for a dealer to capture the sale. I would say, hey i’m interested in this car, if you give me the best price, ie.. match carsdirect.com etc.. then i would buy from you… So it turn, challenge dealer to work and give you the best deal.. if not do what you need to get the price… and to think of it.. what is the cost to do a 15 minute test drive.. tip the guy if you feel bad… just think of how many people test drive and don’t buy….

    happy car hunting..

  66. Startups.in/India

    Right, Jay. Even I was expecting Mike to drive around in a Merc or some thing similar :-)

  67. Really Now

    Is it worthwhile to sit at a dealership for hours on end, fending off one uncomfortable upsell after another in a stochastic attempt to save a few bucks extra?:

    >> Sir, I highly recommend another helping of insurance to go with your extended warranty, anti-theft device, maintenance contract, tire warranty, rust protection, payment protection, door ding protection, bat guano protection, and gummy bear contraception?
    >>OK, I made those last two up.

  68. Todd

    Edwin: a lot of people don’t have a need for or don’t want a luxury car. Just because you have money doesn’t mean you should blow it on an expensive car. You don’t get rich spending money. :)

  69. howard lindzon

    As a buried shareholder it is nice to hear a bit of positive news from this pig of a deal.

  70. David

    With respect to those criticizing Mike for test driving at a dealer and not buying — I am a firm believer in ethics on a personal basis: one should differentiate themselves by taking on ethics, which also benefits society as a whole if each person does so. However, the system should be built in such a way that individual exploitation is not possible. If you design your system in such a way that an individual can exploit your system by disregarding ethics, then your system is fundamentally broken.

    And about buying a car online — my most recent car was purchased from a dealer I found through an eBay auction. I won the auction for a car which was not at the reserve price. I contacted the dealer (in Delaware, while I was living in Maryland), who told me they had just received a car they were willing to sell at a lower price, and that they had just received (1997 Pontiac Sunfire, in 2001, 60k miles). In the end, I emailed the dealer, received some pictures, and liked it so much that I drove 2+ hours to the dealer during a hurricane-eske storm to purchase the car. I called many personal acquaintances (grandfather, pontiac dealer which was a family friend) to ask about the car, and received a lot of good advice about that brand of car. The car checked out, and I even received $300 trade-in for a car I expected to have to pay to tow (1988 Dodge Shadow, the rain may have helped). In the end, I had a seamless process with the dealer, left actually paying *below* Kelly Blue Book value, and have received birthday cards from the dealer ever since.

    Sure, it’s not a new car, but I couldn’t praise the process through eBay and the dealer any more — I am completely happy with the purchase, and several years later, I am still driving the same car, and have paid very little maintenance, even after 105k miles.

    And for those saying that you should establish a relationship with the dealer for maintenance — total baloney. If you’re talking about changing breaks (you should do so yourself, it’s actually quite easy) or oil (completely standard, and cheap), it’s not worth it. Other work is very cheap and easy with a specialized shop, as long as you know enough not to get ripped off (not always an easy thing).

    -David

  71. Ping Liang

    CarsDirect should be able to arrange a test drive at a dealer that wants to do business with CarsDirect. This way, step 3 is a non-issue.

  72. Alaska Miller

    I got this other nifty thing that I do where I block all the advertisements on TechCrunch network and randomly email people on the CrunchBoard with fake resumes. I would make a blog and detail it but I’m too lazy.

  73. Dominik Hahn

    Be honest: Do you really need such a large car?! The new VW GTI is great, much more fun and even cheaper. ;-)

  74. Andreas

    I thought this is your car :)
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/flickrelmo/282088410/

  75. Geoff McQueen

    Looks like a nice set of wheels Mike - what does Laguna think of the new acquisition? ;-)

  76. thierry

    Is that the car from 24?
    Looks very similar to jack baurs’ ride:P

  77. Frank

    I read techcrunch religiously and I found this post interesting and very timely. I just joined a start up and we are getting ready to launch a new product that will make car buying, particularly the negotiation process much more easier (i.e. without actually have to deal with a sales person.

    Our product will allow you to take all of the pricing research you do and actually make an offer on a vehicle from a dealership’s website. We receive daily inventory reports from the dealers, so you are negotiating on real cars, with real features. Unlike most car services, we are not a referral service nor a brokering service. You search the dealers inventory and if you like that car with those features, you can make an offer on it online. You never have to deal with a sales person until you go in to inspect and test drive the car you want.

    The unique feature of our system is that the system negotiates with you and not a person. We take into account things like days on hand, margins, popularity of a vehicle etc and negotiate from there. Once both parties agree on the price, you put a small deposit down to hold that vehicle. Then you go in, test drive it, inspect it, and then buy that car.

    It is a simple process that allows you to get a car you want for the price you are willing to pay for it and allows the dealer to maximize their profits and move cars more cost effectively.

    We are getting ready to launch in December and already have a few dealers lined up to utilize this system (TX, MI and GA for now). If you are interested or want to know more, shoot me an email.

  78. Pusspaw

    You were silly to buy a new car thats getting completely upgraded next year…its the unwritten rule, check the upgrade cycle first. This cost you $3000 at least in resale. You seem like a smart enough guy; would you buy a new Win laptop without a Vista coupon upgrade today (assuming you could not pirate it from buddies)….hmmm..

  79. Jeff O'Hara

    I used autobytel in 1999 to buy my 99 Honda Civic SI which i still have and it was a great experience. I was dealing with a dealership and couldn’t give me the price I wanted. I went to autobytel, and ended up getting the exact same car through the dealership i was dealing with for the price I wanted. Kinda crazy that the dealership would give autobytel the price and not me, then they had to split commissions and their profit was watered down that much more. Some day people are going to wake up and find dealerships are not the way to buy a car. Luckily we have already realized that.

    -Jeff O’Hara
    http://blog.zemote.com

  80. Island in the Net

    I have bought two cars online. I bought a new 2001 Honda Odyssey through Autobytel back and recently bought a 2006 Honda Accord through CarsDirect. The CarsDirect experience was great. I researched and bought my new car all within a month. I also sold my used 1994 Acura Integra (179,000 miles) on CarsDirect. It sold within 3 hours of listing.

  81. Grant Lyons

    Reading the postings made me really excited. As the Green Generation has ripened into a thriving culture, automakers have begun producing more fuel-efficient and alternative fuel cars. Inspired by the movement toward green-consciousness, FirstRide is releasing N.O.M.A.D.—the greener online car store, featuring new fuel-efficient cars with top safety ratings and cool designs. N.O.M.A.D. will cut the hassle and haggle out of buying greener cars by providing flat pricing and home delivery through our FirstRide Dealer Network.

    FirstRide is a company with a simple vision: Do Good…Do Well.

    We are proud to promote people, companies, products and events that reflect this vision. Our unique online magazine features articles and photo essays on green culture, the organic revolution, social entrepreneurship, and independent trends in music, travel, fashion and cars. As an environmentally and socially responsible company, FirstRide is bringing positive and creative energy to the auto industry and the next generation of car buyers.

    Thanks for keeping the conversation going. We hope to bring you a company with real integrity that helps the new car buyer and dealer respectively - while still doing our bit for the earth and the people who inhabit it. We’d love your support while we prepare for our January launch of N.O.M.A.D. (th New Organic Model for Auto Deals)

    Grant Lyons
    Founder, CEO
    FirstRide.com

  82. kareem

    I got my Acura RSX for a couple hundred bucks below invoice using info about dealer rebates, holdback, etc. I got from Fighting Chance. There was no negotiation with any dealers, and I spent about the same amount of time you did getting the car:

    http://tinyurl.com/yb9owj

    I’d highly recommend Fighting Chance–there data helped me immensely. (no I don’t work for them)

    Kareem

  83. Looking out for you

    Off Topic to Grant Lyons:
    You’re website has horrible presentation. As a concerned customer, please sort out your demographic before your january launch - generally the “Greener” crowd isn’t going to enjoy blaring hip hop cussing out of their speakers while trying to sort out a new car.

    Just my 2c

  84. Brad

    What everyone seems to be missing is that you did buy the car from one of those dealers. Possibly one of the dealerships you did a test drive at. You just let CarsDirect do your negotiating. So it’s NOTHING like going to Borders to peruse the books and then ordering from Amazon. In that scenario, Borders makes nothing and never had a real chance at getting the sale. In this case, anyone with any sense at all will go to several dealerships and test drive several different cars. And then will talk to more than one dealership about the model they decide on. Then only the one with the best price gets the sale. Which is exactly what happened here, only Michael’s letting someone else do the negotiating. It’s not like CarsDirect is buying directly from Toyota or bringing them in from dealers across the country.

    Thanks for the tip, Michael. I’m in the process myself and my time is valuable, too.

  85. Steve

    I’m responding to post # 77

    Frank, how can you negotiate a price on a car that you don’t know if you want to buy ? That to me is a waste of time and effort.

    Lets say you negotiate a price on a vehicle that you want to purchase and the negotiating process has taken several hours or even days and you travel to the dealership to find the vehicle that you were interested in isn’t what it was made out to be. All that you’ve done is wasted your time and your clients time.

  86. mariusz pudzianowski

    hahah.. I love the comments citing the “moral” implications of “using” a car dealership to test drive.

    That is absolutely ludicrous. You are test driving a car to see if you like it or not, if it handles the way you want it to, if it fits you correctly, if the options the car has work as advertised.

    You are not “using” the dealership in any way, shape, or form. Jesus Christ, you act as if a $30K purchase is nothing but a drop in the ocean.

    I guess you guys just have so much BLING you can’t be bothered with saving money, jerkoffs.

  87. Serge Baranovsky

    Yes, agree with Edmunds.com recommendations - I used Edmunds.com to do research buying 4 of my last cars (new and used) - it is an excellent source of information. After spending a couple of nights on Edmunds.com I knew exact make, model, year, color and such of the cars i wanted to buy and how much it will cost me too. Never have to go anywhere else :)

  88. Vikram N

    Couple of months ago, I tried to buy a car through Cars Direct. I was told my car would be available in 3-4 weeks time. During the whole process, I was calling Cars Direct daily to find out the status of the car. Finally, they never got the car I wanted and I had to go to a local dealer and buy the car :-(. The only thing I liked about the whole process is that I had a reference price to bargain with the dealer.

  89. David Haddad

    I haven’t read every post yet but the encouragement to go to a car dealer and test drive the car with no intention of buying from them and to top it off to lie to them so repulsed me I will never look at Tech Crunch in the same light…if I keep reading it. Does Mike also call up realtors and look at houses just for the fun of it when he has some spare time? His behavior shows a lack of scruples. The fact that he is happy to brag about it does not speak well for him either.

  90. Michael Arrington

    heh.

  91. Jerome

    David,

    It’s too bad you didn’t read the other posts, because if you did then you would have seen that Mike already addressed this by saying that he DID have the intention of buying from the test drive dealer IF they could meet the price. But don’t bother to go back and read, instead just wait for Mike to show up at your door personally begging your pardon so he won’t lose you as a reader.

  92. SammyD

    Wow. Lots of conversation on a post that should have been on Crunchnotes :-) Just used CarsDirect to get a Highlander…45 minutes tops + signing paperwork when they delivered it to work - for free. Lots of hot air on this one…a complete no brainer. When are we doing lunch…

  93. Joe

    MSRP — Federal Law

    The vehicle sale price which appears on a label affixed to the car window showing the base price, manufacturer’s installed options, the manufacturer’s suggested retail price, plus manufacturer’s freight or transportation charge, and fuel economy (mileage). The label is required by federal law and may not be removed by anyone other than the purchaser. The MSRP is the recommended selling price for a vehicle plus any optional accessories.

  94. Greg

    I just recently purchased a 2006 Honda CR-V. I used the CarsDirect price as somewhat of a starting point. After several trips and several phone calls, I actually got a price several hundred dollars less than what the CarsDirect website recommended.

    However, perhaps your method was worth it to avoid some stress. :]

    Enjoy your new ride!

  95. Scott Ellsworth

    He did _not_ say that he had no intention of purchasing the car from them, he said that he had no intention of going through the usual sales process.

    I suspect that he might have gone with the dealer had they matched the Cars Direct price.

    I contacted CarsDirect, every honda dealer in the near area, Costco, and a few other folks when I bought my Accord. I ended up buying from a local dealer, as they were within twenty bucks of the best online price, and I rather liked the style of the internet manager. No nonesense, clear emails, clear price quotes, and no extra fluff or junk mail.

    So, while CD does not provide the service that he wanted - the test drive - they do provide others that the car dealers have to compete with. The local dealer also has you on site, and if they cannot learn to use that well, then they deserve to lose the sale. (In other words, given that you have already come to the lot, and are going to spend time with a salesman in the car, it seems rather sad that they cannot close the deal.)