It is getting better but there are still a number of items they really haven’t changed. I’ve used them a few times but I’m not sure this will continue too long once the relationship is in place.

For a small shop, though, not only can we not afford the ongoing HR recruiting costs - but we can’t afford to have five or six developers on the team with diverse skillsets. Expecting a single developer to do the CSS and to handle security is not fair to one’s web application nor is it efficient. One or two developers can’t do everything.

And AmericanMade, as long as you are talking about funding for Katrina cleanup and improved education stateside - let’s talk about the costs of Perpetual War.

Almost eight times as much money has been spent in Iraq (over $400 Billion) as has been spent on Katrina relief ($62 Billion).

Good point about the trade deficits though. Yanks are spending more than $760 billion a year that you don’t have.

The fish rots from the head.

hrlaulau aijwtdtais bfnwzeyu zhroxolxs …

AmericanMade - sending money or not sending money offshore isn’t going to help those people in East Palo Alto, what is going to help them in finding cheap ways to offer them goods. Just imagine had Wal-Mart not been available, people would still be spending $5.00 to buy a notebook for their kids to go to school with or $200.00 for a bedspread, instead they spend $1.00 for that notebook and $25.00 for that bedspread. I am betting that not only do you not understand the lives of Corporate America but you don’t understand what it’s like to be in that situation either, whereas I can say, I have lived both.

Doing the right thing isn’t about “giving” opportunity to people just because there are in one location or another. Where America will win the Global fight in business is in it’s innovation and not in price. The problems in America and with poverty don’t exist because we ship things offshore, they exists because people like yourself think there is a simply answer, black and white, that’s all it must be but more so that you, not having lived either case have all the right answers.

AmericanMade: you bet my friend… i think & act both locally and globally. i participate in both of the following non-profit organizations that help work on poverty, education, and housing issues:

1) i contribute time & money to Unitus, an organization that helps lend money to poor people around the world to help them start businesses and educate their families.

2) i contribute time & money to Full Circle Fund, an organization that provides grants to social entrepreneurs in the SF bay area (primarily SF, Oakland, and the SF Peninsula) working on local community issues in housing, education, and technology access.

i put my money, and my time, where my mouth is… i just don’t limit it to my own backyard.

in any case, sounds like we share some common ground in a few places, even if you think i’m an idiot on a few issues… so i’ll take that as a minimal foundation for starting some communication, and i’ll re-read your posts above to see what i missed the first time around.

peace out,

- dave

you can reach me at dave [at] 500hats [dot] com… contact info for email & skype also on my blog.

hope to hear from you & thanks for reaching out,

- dave

DM: clue - its not about race or equal opportunity nor is it about labeling someone an “outsider.” It’s about supporting the US consumer economy which is holding everything up like a house of cards. If you undermine it, it will only be a matter of time before it comes crashing down…including the value of your house and the ability of your US customers to pay for your services.

LTU: clue - re-read my posts 2 times, reflect, try to really understand what I am saying before commenting. Hint - Walmart is not driving higher quality but lower quality and lower prices. He who has the lowest price wins is the Walmart mentality…it doesn’t drive innovation, it drives you out of business (if you are in that space).

AnyoneWhoReadsThis: What happens when all of the entrepreneurs and business owners give away our Intellectual Property to countries like China and India? How long will it be before they have all of the ideas, know how, and more importantly the money to pull the ideas off, before they no longer need our money to fund them. Then your job as business owner has just been offshored.

DM: Seriously, I will try your service. If I like it, I will refer my US contractors to use it. I apologize for hijacking the focus of this article which was the review of your service. However, I can’t just go with everyone on this whole send it to India gig just because it is cheaper and it’s what everyone else is doing. There are serious long term reprecussions that they aren’t telling you and which most people don’t even care to think about. If it doesn’t affect me know, then it’s not a problem. If you have children, unless you plan on leaving them the fortunes you earn, their reality in the New World Order of Globalization could be that of hut dweller in the newly created sahara of silicon valley. Not that I am against hut dwellers…so don’t go off on that tangent.

Just think next time you drive past East Palo Alto…wonder to yourself “Is there anything I can do to help one person there learn a skill to feed their family?” Poverty is alive and well in America, it’s not just in a Third World country. If you can’t help your fellow countryman (black, brown, yellow, white, green, or pink), but would rather send money offshore, well that speaks volumes.

Sam Ossman: re: your comment on what oDesk does for education / filtering for talent — we offer feedback scoring on all of our providers (launched a few months ago, feedback available for up to a year ago), and as far as we know we’re the only company currently offering free testing on over 100 different subject areas. i’m sure there’s always more we can do to improve on this in the future, however as far as providing a great place to find quality developers & other technical talent we believe we’re pretty far ahead of anyone else offering services online. if you’re up for it, i’d encourage you to give us another try and choose any of our top-rated developers for your projects.

AmericanMade: i think you’ve clearly identified your principles… obviously we have very different perspectives. oDesk *does* provide Remote Work opportunities to US-based talent (particularly in rural / non-urban locations), however the majority of our providers are outside the US… primarily because people in those locations don’t have the same opportunities & choices we have here. why you choose to call those folks “outsiders” and not give them a shot the same as anyone here is beyond me, but i guess you’re entitled to your opinion. as i mentioned before, to me those “outsiders” are my family and friends… and in another generation or two, they’ll probably be yours as well

- dave mcclure
http://500hats.typepad.com/

Personally, we have given tons of great feedback to odesk and even previously recommended at least 10 new clients to odesk, however, in light of some recent issues with odesk, we have dropped all our projects. This of course is unfortunate being that we had so much more business to give oDesk. While I feel that oDesk still has lots of potential, we have decided not to work with them anymore.

Sam Ossman - In part, I agree. Too often people assume that just because you can monitor people that improves the quality of their work. We went into odesk thinking just that and were quickly disappointed. If I had to say the only real value I see in odesk at this point is that their management appears to be professional and does seem to care about users, other than that, the rest will be seen in how they address their issues. My advice to them would be that they bring in a professional business advisor, someone new and fresh from the outside to completely rework things because it’s unfortunate to see a company with promise go down the tubes because they don’t address their clients needs. I’ve seen it so many times in my ecommerce career.

AmericanMade - it does matter what you spend because the reality is that unless you are in someone else’s shoes, while you can speak to the issues, you have no background in understand their mindset. Managing a group of 3 developers certainly has it’s issues but managing a group of 20 or even 50 developers has an entirely set of issues and one of those is cost is that’s a reality that can not be dismissed.

AmericanMade - you can criticize the Wal-Mart mentality all you want but despite peoples beliefs that company’s like Wal-Mart do evil, look at the reality. Those company’s force innovation, they require and demand the highest level of quality and at the lowest price. This forces people to innovate and without that innovation, where would America be? Want to know what makes America great? It’s not the cheap labor or the abundance of people, it’s in their abilities to innovate and create and that innovation has several forms and sometimes its in competing with others.

AmericanMade - While your objectives may not be to turn a profit, others are and if you wish to continue in business without turn a larger and larger profit, that’s your choice but the reality is that in order for business to survive, they must consistently turn a profit so while you may not be happy having record profits year after year, that’s your right, I give you that but I think the majority of people online are looking to make more money. I think the problem here is that you assume the money should go to you and not others. Why would I decide to spend 20% to even 50% more with you just because? That means that you get that money and not outsiders but when in reality by giving money to them, I in term have more money which means I can do more.

Profit is not a bad thing, what is bad is assuming that it should go to you rather than to someone else.

I wouldn’t “feel” any better or worse if HP announced a 50% drop in profits…I don’t gamble on stock any more than I let it ride in Vegas. Actually, now that I come to think of it, if HP did report such a thing, I would be extremely giddy…considering the actions of the existing and hopefully soon to be replaced board of directors. Their ethics are clear for everyone to see.

Does it matter if I spend $50K, $150K, or $500K on development? Again, I am not against outsourcing…I am against OFFSHORING. It doesn’t matter how much I spend on development. What matters is this:

Silicon Valley - 0% cost savings
New England - 10-15% cost savings
Midwest - 15-25% cost savings
South - 25-35% cost savings
Rural areas - 35-60% cost savings

How much cost savings do you need and at what cost? I can live with 15-50% cost savings…I don’t need the extra 30% “cost savings” by using offshore workers. In my experience, I can find plenty of cost savings in the US, remain profitable, and keep US citizens employed. All of these efforts go towards feeding the American economy…not undermining it. Small businesses may save the American economy, not corporations who march to the beat of the shareholder drum no matter the cost.

The trick in business is not to become a commodity where you have to compete based on price alone. This Walmart mentality IS the problem. How many 99 cent tacos does Taco Bell have to sell to be profitable? Quick illustration - web2.0 companies are so entrenched into this Walmart thinking… “well hell, let’s just give it away for free…our competitors can’t beat us if it’s free” - LOL

Repeat after me:

I won’t become a commodity
I don’t have to be the low cost leader
I can create a product and service based upon value
I don’t need 400% profits
I don’t need to make $137 million when the workers are making $75k in the US and $7K in India - but if I do, I promise to build a school to help educate the less fortunate here in the US.
If Warren Buffet can live in the same old house for the past 40 years, so can I - I don’t need to live in Palo Alto, Los Altos or Beverly Hills.

As for knowing your mindset, that’s fine but at the same time, I would ask how much your company spends on development? Now consider, if that were one area which you could save on cost, wouldn’t you then find other areas to improve upon? Just because a company outsourcers don’t make it some greedy corporation, in fact, our company gives a lot back to the community but rather we outsource yes to make more money but also to stay completive which in business, if you don’t adapt, you find yourself out of business very quickly.

The United States is as most would agree the greatest country on the planet but face is, not everyone moves things internationally because they simply want to turn a buck, While that is one of the biggest factors, as a business person I can tell you that it’s not the only factor as no one would simply change their entire operations on a single point.

If you elect to keep all your operations in the United States, that’s fine and certainly your choice but in time you will find it difficult to compete with other company’s who do outsource certain aspects of their business and find competitive advantages in other ways.

Not everything is so black and white so I ask again, how much does your company spend on development and if you could save 80% of that cost in one way or another, wouldn’t you use at least the bulk of that money to improve in other areas?

Yes, I am also “pretty confident there are many functions that can be performed remotely, and quite competently, by many talented people around the world.” I am not disputing the incredible talent that can be found in India, Russia, Ukraine, or the Czech Republic…or anywhere else for that matter. That’s not the point.

Yes, there are people everywhere that “have life a lot worse off than we do here in the good ol’ US of A.” So what you are implying is that you are running a charity to help improve economic conditions in other countries?

What would have happened if companies like HP, Intel, IBM, and any of the others that have been pouring MILLIONS if not BILLIONS of dollars into India had put that money into developing new infrastructure, educational programs, tech schools, learning labs, & jobs into New Orleans? I hear property is cheap and there is an abundant supply of people looking for work there.

Dave, you have the right to CHOOSE any hard working individual anywhere in the world you want to work with. I also have a choice to hire or contract work with anyone who I want to. The difference is that I CHOOSE to use US based resources. Please, don’t mask the motivation for offshoring with the warm and fuzzy feeling imbued by the term “Equal Opportunity”. Give me a break. The real motivator is PROFIT, period.

In regards to this statement you made:

“i’ll certainly state CLEARLY that in general our standard of living is higher because of trade and interaction with other nations… and similarly, our own exports flourish because other nations also co-exist and participate in the global economy.”

Ok, what mind altering delusional drugs are you on? I have two words for you…TRADE DEFICIT. In 2004, our annual trade deficit was…drumroll… $618,700,000,000.00!! That’s more than half a TRIILION. I can’t find any numbers for 2005…maybe they don’t want us to think about it. In 1995, before the Web took off and before the big push for globalization our trade deficit was below $100 billion.

You also state:

“the cars we drive, the televisions we watch, even the food we eat is made more plentiful and less expensive because we operate in a global community”

Yes, we have moved from a country that PRODUCES things to a country that CONSUMES things. What happens to a consumer economy when the consumers can’t find a job because the jobs all went to India, China, Russia, or wherever? They stop spending money on consuming things because they can’t afford it…even if it is Walmart cheap.

If I didn’t know better, I would think you were a politician throwing around cozy catch phrases like “Equal Opportunity,”Level Playing Field,” and “multi-ethnic immigration.” If you are really for “Equal Opportunity,” I dare you to contract work or hire someone who lives in East Palo Alto, Oakland, Compton, or the deep South. Oh, I forgot, they don’t have the tech skills required for the job. Why is that? Because building jails is more profitable than building schools.

I am not against Equal Opportunity in the real sense of the word. I am not opposed to LEGAL immigration. I am opposed to gutting the American economy for the sake of corporate profits. When we send jobs offshore that is exactly what we are doing and that is my point. How many years will it take for corporate executives, the asset class, and the old money class to kill the middle class and push those-who-had class into the have-not class? Wake up America!

It seems that the US is number one for looking for available labor outside of the US. Why is that? Does Russia hire primarily Russians and stay inside their borders? Is it the language barrier in that stereotypically Americans only speak English while just about everywhere else people speak their native tongue as well as English (and more)? Or is it that the bulk of the development work comes from the US companies?

I definately like the comments and feedback regarding this article kudos for reviewing it.

Best thing about oDesk is the transparency for both buyers and providers and the hourly payment mechanism which gives lots of flexibility to buyers in organising their needs.

We have a dream and I know oDesk is going to fulfill it.