Ilija Studen, a developer from Serbia, has released a free clone of the popular project management service Basecamp. Studen’s product is called ActiveCollab and has been down since blowing up on Digg. Though the site is available only intermittently now, that’s not of a lot of consequence because of its service model. ActiveCollab is a PHP/MySQL tool that users download and then install on their own web servers. The end result is a free, open source and web based application.
Studen says he first got the idea of open sourcing his project from a discussion in April on Paul Scrivens’ blog titled “Being 37Signals for Free.” Studen claimed he had created such a product in that conversation and has now returned to update the thread with news of ActiveCollab’s launch.
The creators of Basecamp, 37Signals, have enjoyed a virtual monopoly in the world of high quality, low-cost online project management software. Though the company is widely loved, Studen’s clone could pose a threat to their subscription based business model if it turns out to be of high quality. The company offers a variety of popular online tools, but this is particularly interesting because of the company’s role as one of the key though-leaders in the development of Web 2.0 business models.
title typo – Basecamp
mmm, I love me some bascamp.
This will not hurt Basecamp at all. People that use Basecamp and other hosting services don’t want to host the software themselves. They want to subscribe, pay a monthly fee, get the support they need, and not have to worry about the hardware and software headaches. That doesn’t mean that there isn’t a market for free software, but I don’t think it will hurt 37 Signals or their competitors—believe it or not, even they have some of those.
Wow this is great. It will be interesting to see what the response will be from 37Signals.
As far as hosting this solution on your own I really dont see that as an issue due the minimal space the db would use.
I have one setup on my test server if anyone is interesting in trying it out drop me an email and I will send you a user/pass to take a look around
xxdesmus a.t. g mail
The response will indeed be interesting as this will hit 37s where it hurts.. their ego.
I just installed this script and I am telling you now, in it’s current state it isn’t very good competition.
- Wouldn’t install on MySQL 5.0 properly, had to import the schema and default inserts myself.
- Is no where near as slick as Basecamp (though it is only alpha)
I did, a while ago, begin to work on a Basecamp clone because it is something we needed to manage an application I develop. As the application is free and I already fork out for our server monthly, paying for a service like that is something I just don’t feel like doing.
I got pretty far in my application including messages, to-do lists, the “writeboard” functionality, and milestones. It is all AJAX/Javascript based in terms of marking to-do items and lists as completed, adding new items, re-ordering lists etc.
It’s interesting the name they chose to, “activeCollab” which is very similar to the name I had on mine.
This is definitely a project worth following though.
This comment from Jason posted on the “Being 37Signals for Free” blog before ActiveCollab was released is funny. No better way to motivate a coder than to taunt him:
Jason Fried says:
April 16th, 2006 at 12:08 pm
Thanks for the press, Scrivs and Co.
A few things…
1. You severely underestimate the time, vision, and leadership it takes to bring *any* product to market — especially a consumer/business product used by non-techies. Basecamp, Blinksale, Typepad, Flickr, etc — they are all “simple” tools on the surface. It’s what you don’t see that’s the hard part. It’s not a matter of getting some talented people in the room. That’s the easy part. Making the right decisions at the right time for the right reasons is the hard part. The decisions involve design, development, marketing, promotion, support, analyzing customer feedback, what to add in or leave out, etc.
2. There are already hundreds of project management apps out there. Do a search for “Project Management Software” on Google. So you’re “tool-in-a-weekend” idea isn’t just going to compete with Basecamp, but it will also compete with the hundreds of others tools already established in the market. Basecamp didn’t create the space, it entered the already well established space. We had a different take on project management/collaboration, we didn’t just copy another player. If you have a better idea go for it, but there’s little gained by copying someone else.
3. Talented people are busy. They aren’t sitting around waiting to copy the next big thing. And talented people also prefer to work on something meaningful, not copying someone else’s hard work so they can save $12/month. That isn’t satisfying work and when you aren’t satisfied at your core then the product will reflect that.
4. Where’s the motivation? Why spend months and months copying something that is pretty good already? People are motivated to spend their time making something considerably better than what’s out there, not making something that’s on par with something out there. There are plenty of great new ideas to be developed — why not spend your brainpower and energy on those?
5. There are very few successful ad-supported software products. Are there *any* from anyone besides the huge companies that can afford to subsidize new products with revenue from other endevours? Ad-supported content is different from ad-supported software. It’s not as easy as saying “If you want to do a hosted model you could still sell advertising and run things for free.”
5. It’s already been 11 days since you posted this. That’s two weekends and a handful of days. Any progress?
Even more funny is they built and gave away free the tools to easily copy them, Ruby on Rails. I never really liked Jason too much, from hearing podcasts with him he always sound like he thinks knows everything, “we can talk more about that later if you want…..”
I just downloaded Alpha 1 of activeCollab and looked at the PHP 5 source. Wow. This one guy, Ilija, has developed an entire Ruby-on-Rails-like framework from scratch to power this puppy. It’s very good, clean, OOP code. Not that this matters to anyone but programming geeks, but what it really means is this: activeCollab isn’t just some hacked-together piece of **** by some PHP script kiddie during his lunch break, but is a really solid, well-thought-out application by a good programmer. Assuming he doesn’t give up now (unlikely) and let this project wither on the vine, this could grow to be a MAJOR success and a significant blow to 37signals. Hmm.
Great effort by Studen. Script works great.
My money is on this free open-source project tool that is looking better all of the time: http://www.streber-pm.org/
streber is looking slick….
I am quite impressed. Especially for such an early build, this quite nice already. I think Jason’s above comments are childish and quite obviously showing some worry on 37signals’s part.
His entire 4th point is just moronic. If we were to follow that path of thinking we’d never have any innovation because we’d just think “oh, the way that guy does it is good enough.” …think out of the box, think how make an existing program better…nice try Jason. He’s just trying to cover his own a**.
Competition is great. Basecamp has had plenty of it from day one. This is another entry to the list of products that do online project management. In the open-source space, there’s already dotProject (http://www.dotproject.net/), phpCollab (http://www.php-...ollab.org/blog/), and streberPM (http://www.streber-pm.org/). If you want something to open source to install on your own machine, you should give those a look as well.
Is ActiveCollab better, worse, or about the same as Basecamp? That’s for people and the free market to decide. But a clone? Nah. That would imply it had exactly the same features, design, and implementation. That’s obviously not the case. This is competition. Just as the other projects mentioned above.
In any case, good luck to Ilija with his project. It’s always fun to release something you’ve worked on for a while onto the world.
Could use a UI designer…
This will not hurt 37Signals. Jason has a point, there are already hundreds of project management programs. The reason that Basecamp is number 1 is simple: it is perfect. I’ve used several in the past, none compare with anything made by 37Signals. There is more to a product than features. Its about design and thought.
Also, one of the benefits of Basecamp is that you don’t have to install anything. You don’t have to worry about upgrades, or maintenance. You just sign up, and it works. If it doesn’t, they have professional support.
“I think Jason’s above comments are childish and quite obviously showing some worry on 37signals’s part.”
Yeah, sometimes I can sound like an idiot. Newsflash: I’m human! Things could be worse.
But if you’ll allow me to play with something *you* said…
“if we were to follow that path of thinking we’d never have any innovation because we’d just think “oh, the way that guy does it is good enough.” …think out of the box, think how make an existing program better”
Since when is “cloning” an existing product considered “innovation” or “thinking outside the box” or “making an existing program better?” Clone means the same, not better, not different, not new. Of course Activecollab isn’t a Basecamp clone or a PHPcollab clone or a MS Project clone or… Each product has a different take and execution on something similar. That’s competition and it’s healthy. And there’s plenty of competition in this space. I’m not sure why Arrington suggests we have a “virtual monopoly.” There are no monopolies in this space.
Anyhow, we wish everyone who has the guts to release a product to the public good luck. It’s certainly a wonderful thing to experience.
Competition is great. Basecamp has had plenty of it from day one. This is another entry to the list of products that do online project management. In the open-source space, there’s already dotProject (http://www.dotproject.net/), phpCollab (http://www.php-...ollab.org/blog/), and streberPM (http://www.streber-pm.org/). If you want something to open source to install on your own machine, you should give those a look as well.
Is ActiveCollab better, worse, or about the same as Basecamp? That’s for people and the free market to decide. But a clone? Nah. That would imply it had exactly the same features, design, and implementation. That’s obviously not the case. This is competition. Just as the other projects mentioned above.
In any case, good luck to Ilija with his project. It’s always fun to release something you’ve worked on for a while onto the world.
-David and Jason from 37signals
“The reason that Basecamp is number 1 is simple: it is perfect. I’ve used several in the past, none compare with anything made by 37Signals. There is more to a product than features. Its about design and thought.”
Thanks for the kind words, James. We’re doing our best.
Basecamp is useful, but it is far from perfect. I am a paying customer. I find some of the UI decisions to be a real PITA, and there are a few missing features that I think should be obvious (comments on to-do items, for example).
Hopefully this type of competition will force Basecamp to improve more.
Jason, can you make it so that when you add a new item to a list that it goes to the top of the list, so it doesn’t have to be dragged several times up using the AJAX interface? Cheers!
@Mark Devlin: 37signals has always said that they prefer a simple application and don’t intend to fill it with features that the majority of users don’t ask for.
Although I disagree with what Jason Fried has to say most of the time, I do think he has very valid points in his comments to Studen. The space is indeed very well-established even before 37signals came into the scene. Although I don’t use Basecamp (only test-drive it for a while), I could easily see how Basecamp managed to create something innovative in the PM space. I agree with Jason that if you were to embark on something, might as well use that opportunity to create something different. Not necessarily meaning that don’t create another PM software, but try to incorporate something that Basecamp doesn’t already have. One thing that I’ve always thought about Basecamp (and surely one of the reasons I don’t use Basecamp much) is that it doesn’t work well for programming-based projects (the closest is trac, but even trac is not as sleek as Basecamp). So it could be worthwhile for someone to create something like that, based on Basecamp, and you could have an application that will truly be serving a purpose not unlike Basecamp. Not sure if Studen plans on adding new features to activeCollab, but if he only aim to be on par with Basecamp, then it’s truly a pity and waste of a great opportunity.
Download and install on your own server? No competition to Basecamp there. No thanks.
Ben, are you on the payroll of 37 signals? If not, then you don’t have the right to speak on their behalf regarding their support policies regarding my feature request.
My request is a simple one that would enhance all users’ experience of the product. Personally, I think that despite your claim, 37 signals do listen to their customers, because if they didn’t then they run the risk that alienating customers like me, who can easily move to newer services that provide missing features.
I currently subscribe to Basecamp. But if I like this (installing it now), I could easily see myself dumping Basecamp.
Basecamp is awesome software — don’t get me wrong — but I’m just not wild about the limitations. Especially the lack of SSL on the lower plans (which, ironically, I can get on shared hosting far cheaper than it would be to upgrade to a Basecamp plan with it).
@Don Wilson: Serious? No competition?
It’s open source and (not positive) skinned with CSS, so what would stop someone from yanking it down, installing it, reskinning it with a complete corporate identity, integrating client-side (not code talk here, actually client level access) features that would allow a company’s customer base to jump in and check invoices, ask questions, submit feature requests for their project, etc.. The possibilities for a system such as activeCollab are limitless, [of course] if the framework is solid and built correctly.
I’m a paying customer of Basecamp like many others, and I do enjoy the simplicity of their system. Yet, I agree with Mark, it is definitely not perfect and cries out for some of the most elementary features. But, as it sits, only features that are requested wide-spread are considered, so what’s the point; it’s picking a rabbit out of a hat when that’s the only means for features to be implemented. Tons of developers just like me don’t always have the time to email a company with a list of features we’d like to see – especially if you’ve done it a hundred times and never seen anything come of it…
Obviously this alternative intrigues me. However, if it were taken to the limit I’ve discussed – yes, at some point it would become more than a PMS. But who cares, it could easily be a modularly access system that shows only what is necessary at any given time to the appropriate users. The whole point here is control, not just beauty or even cost (free or not). If one gives more control than the other, I say why not…
PS. After all that talk, I honestly don’t think I’ll be moving away from Basecamp. Not because I’m in love with it, but because I can’t export my own [critical] project data (I don’t care about the comments, give me the todo’s). What a great feature they’ve considered for the integrity of their company. Can’t say I blame them though, I’d do the same!
activeCollab seems a great choice, however, for the new PMS user or someone who only has one small project in Basecamp and is considering the upgrade. This is where I see Basecamp loosing some amount (large or small) of customers.
Kudos 37Signals — you’ve achieved enough success that people are going to be taking cheap shots at you now — get ready for 37$ignals moniker
I installed this on my local machine. It’s not bad, but it’s pretty rough around the edges. I can see where this could get quite popular but I don’t think the main users of Basecamp and ActiveCollab will intersect.
I’ll take a more thorough look, but it just feels clunkier. But because it’s open source, users have more potential for customization and flexibility.
Basecamp = iPod
ActiveCollab = Korean MP3 XP 2330XT SUPER Edition Limited Super Audio Maxtreme
Really – how many people in the real world know what php5 and mysql is? The model is get in there, do your stuff and don’t worry about configuring all kinds of stuff.
On the other hand – if you do know php and mysql and can configure a server: go for it – not me!
as an existing free user (with my own servers) of basecamp for a couple projects, I downloaded and installed (3 simple steps, really) activecollab. I used it for a short time and decided I’m pretty much done with basecamp.
People who complain it’s rough around the edges maybe need to spend more time in basecamp, where design choices are ugly–but highly functional. And, i guess studen has taken advantage of a lot of 37signals time and effort because it feels very basecamp like.. but with it being on my servers i get greater control.
so, i may be the only user where these two products intersect and cost 37signals a customer (albeit a free one right now) I would be surprised.
I think, though, there are enough users to go around.
lastly, i think jason and others should know sometimes we build things for other motivations than profit: experience; notice; to test a theory; or because we’re bored even. I think we should be happy to see such a well thoughtout, free and ambitious offering.
Well JF… here it comes…
Let me know when I can pre-order Office 2009.
– insert long drawn out comment about creators vs. monkeys here…
Jason Fried.. if this doesn’t bother you why are you replying to comments on this post? You have an arrogant attitude most times, and trust me, this gets you nowhere. I’m CTO for a software company that you would’ve heard of, and we didn’t get where we are by acting arrogant and ignorant. I wish ActiveCollab the best of success, and hope he offers a hosted solution to take on basecamp directly.
well, im all for things that take jf and dhh down a notch potentially. i am not delusional, this of course helps 37signals as a brand, it essentially news/press and reiterates that they are the ones to chase. it will surely not kill their business. as with all companies, your initial hit may one day become a commodity and you have to use the revenues while they last to extend your brand into other businesses. if not now, it is sure to happen eventually and will put JF to the test as a CEO. we should all be so lucky to have the opportunity to face that challenge.
37s is reaping what they sew tho. there is some palpable ill will they have truly earned with their funky attitudes. and here is the first shot across the bow from all the silly non-ruby developers that have been “taken to task” by dhh.
these dudes are not really a tech company tho. they are marketing the hell out of very simple tech and refining the design of stuff that has been around forever. most importantly they are monetising every breath they take. id guess they make most of their money on ridiculous $19 pdfs and lame conferences so who knows if they even care.
anyways, the prime customer for basecamp are super casual people that would have no clu on how to install this or want to. but this is a great substitute for people that have a clu, have a server, and realy dont want to fatten the pockets of those fatheads anymore.
James? Which car company do you work for? A major one?
Laugh while you can monkey boy!
james, i obviously agree with your premise. but i would like to point out that 37signals DID get where they are primarily by acting arrogant and ignorant.
A few points to clear up.
Jason: Marshall wrote the post, not Mike
and further, I am not sure if the ‘basecamp clone’ angle came from the developer, or was something that Marshall concluded. In the communication I have had with the developer he never mentioned Basecamp, but in these times with so much software being released you need a unique angle like that to get coverage – so I don’t blame the developer if he did take that angle (ie. basecamp clone).
That being said, I can see activeCollab stretching beyond what Basecamp does. First of all, Ilija should setup a developer community around it to help drive the next phase of development. I believe that as an open source project activeCollab has tremendous potential, especially as open source developers are more likely to build it to be suitable for software projects (which most people don’t find Basecamp suitable for at the moment).
Once the project matures, has a support group, developer mailing list and a community, I am sure we will see dozens of hosting providers sprout up and offer this software as a subscription service.
trying to stay on topic here-and i don’t think flaming jf to hell was the topic- does anyone get a bit creeped out storing their company project data with what are ostensibly competitors?
my servers, my data. not that 37signals has show any reason to mistrust them–but when it comes to data…
oh and I would like to add that the platform that has been written for activeCollab has been very well put together, probably one of the better PHP frameworks. It would be interesting to hear more about or perhaps for it to be released.
Comments #25 and #26 are right on the money. Geeks just don’t get it. (perhaps geeks simply CAN’T get it.) It’s not just about the features. It’s also about design. Style and user interface may not matter to geeks, but it certainly matters A LOT to the rest of the world. Just as iPod is not the most powerful MP3 player but it is the best selling, Basecamp is not the most powerful project management service but it probably will continue to be the best selling.
To the commenters that think Basecamp is going to add more features, read Jason’s blog post here: http://37signal...growing_out.php
He says:”We’re saying no. And here’s why: We’d rather our customers grow out of our products eventually than never be able to grow into them in the first place.”
Jason Fried = geek that can think like average person = successful entrepreneur.
I forced our adoption of basecamp 10 months ago, and I must say that i did it to be supportive of a cool development group with great UI touches. But as time has gone bye I am disappointed in the lack of basic evolution of the product. So although this article isn’t about bashing basecamp, it is about a potential treat – better, cheaper products. And, i say there’s a market out here for them.
For all of us who subscribed early, w/our $ subscriptions, i thought there would be more features coming out by now. For example, why can’t messages parce/post HTML yet? Once someone can better integrate MS project files, post my html and organize my ‘front page’ a bit more intuitively I’m outta basecamp. Or please 37signals, keep up with your development. I was a big big fan.
Use a UI designer…and a proof-reader. It will look alot more pro in no time.
If you’re looking for an easy-to-use alternative to Basecamp, you might want to check out TeamWork Live: http://www.teamworklive.com
TeamWork Live was released a month ago and has all the features of Basecamp (except time-tracking). The company is very receptive to new feature requests. Their user interface is elegant and there are many additional useful features like SMS reminders, a full text search engine, and an integrated wiki. Their free plan even allows for file sharing.
Of course this is bothering 37signals, that’s why they deleted my thread in their Basecamp forum at http://basecamp...pic.php?id=2320
I’m a paid customer of the basecamp, and just wanted to discuss it in their forum. Previous threads about other alternatives didn’t get deleted, but this one did.
I started using activeCollab and won’t cancel my membership with Basecamp until activeCollab hits final version.
I’m glad I submitted this cool project to digg, so it received the publicity it deserved.
Few reasons why I’ll choose activeCollab are:
1. I can easily theme it.
2. I can install it to my local network or web server without space limitations.
3. Community can add new features.
4. It’s free.
Do I see Jason scrambling to cover his a**? Or are my eyes deceiving me?
JF, I agree Basecamp is a great tool and all that. Heck, I an great fan of the SvN blog. You have had the guts to post some radical thoughts online. Kudos to you about that dude!
But, when I look at you scrambling around to answer comments in TC trying to assure users that BC is not going anywhere, it pains me.
BC was, is and will always be a great tool to work with. Period. AC is new. AC is for those who can’t pay. And that does not mean they are cheapskates. They could be students like me. For some of us a paid option just isn’t viable.
My best wishes to you and BaseCamp.
Regards,
Shri.
Hi All,
Can anyone please enlighten me as what exactly is comment #25 referring to?
Quote = After all that talk, I honestly don’t think I’ll be moving away from Basecamp. Not because I’m in love with it, but because I can’t export my own [critical] project data.
I thought “Exporting Data” from Basecamp is supported?
Thanks
Yes, exporting of all the comments and messages is supported, in XML format.
Me, I can care less about the basecamp stuff. That php framework is something though.
There is the fact that basecamp is RoR and AC is PHP, so I’m kinda interested what the long run product will be… which will be faster, stronger- better?
Its like an ultimate test or something.
Hi everybody,
First of all thank you for this entry and the comments. I apologise because of the hosting problems we are currently having. Load on the server is through the roof and they had to bring it down to keep the server from crashing. aC is available for download but forum, demo and blog are down.
activeCollab is all about alternative. There is a lot of people that find closed nature of Basecamp pretty limiting. Your data is not in a place you can control, you can’t customize the solution to fit your specific needs, it can’t be integrated with system you already have in place etc. activeCollab is targeting that group of people + the people who like open source or just want a free solution to solve their organization problems.
I tried to make it easy to install, extensible and easy to use. There are still a lot of things that need to be addressed, my ToDo list is huge, but we are moving pretty fast. With a lot of user feedback and testing I think will have stable version in few months. So, keep testing, submit bug reports, make feature requests…
And let me repeat this: its all about providing alternative and meeting user’s needs. Simple as that.
>> Anyhow, we wish everyone who has the guts to release a
>> product to the public good luck. It’s certainly a wonderful
>> thing to experience.
Yes, it really is. I think I’m gonna get a heart attack
i really don’t get when Jason is taking about design…37s??? come on pepole, wake up! which design exactly we are talking about? it’s not like Paul Rand is back from the dead and working for 37s;)
*btw – i really don’t remember any great designs coming from 37s back in the days.
@Boolean
July 7th, 2006 at 1:18 am
Of course this is bothering 37signals, that’s why they deleted my thread in their Basecamp forum at http://basecamp...pic.php?id=2320
*he always censor or shutting down posts!!!
**it’s funny how he pretend to be to be super free/liberal/open…but if you follow the SVN blog it got all the characteristics of a bad cult!
what a hypocrite!
It’s a great app, kudos to Ilija Studen. Open source is good, but not to be confused as being equal to free. You get what you pay for, and that doesn’t have to mean dollars. I got activeCollab running with a bit of console hacking to create a DB for it and set file permissions and stuff. 5-10 minutes maybe, but if I wanted to keep using it for the duration of it’s lifespan I should expect more of the same as the DB schema evolves and features are added and improved. Of course, keeping the installation and my data intact are also my responsibility.
That’s the common misconception of open source – that it’s *completely* free. Everything costs something, whether it’s some of your time, or a small monthly fee. I’m thinking that most of Basecamp’s paying users already appreciate that, seeing as it is a tool designed to help better manage your time and resources in the first place.
The following activeCollab is attracting may be comprised more of the kind of individuals who are happy to apply a bit of elbow grease to working on their tools as well as working with them. It’s all good, different products for different market psychographics. All the best to both.