Basecamp faces competition in free alternative

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1. BK
   

   July 6th, 2006 at 6:25 pm

   title typo - Basecamp

2. Paul Stamatiou
   

   July 6th, 2006 at 6:28 pm

   mmm, I love me some bascamp.

3. Pat
   

   July 6th, 2006 at 6:29 pm

   This will not hurt Basecamp at all. People that use Basecamp and other hosting services don’t want to host the software themselves. They want to subscribe, pay a monthly fee, get the support they need, and not have to worry about the hardware and software headaches. That doesn’t mean that there isn’t a market for free software, but I don’t think it will hurt 37 Signals or their competitors—believe it or not, even they have some of those.

4. Dennis Bullock
   

   July 6th, 2006 at 6:35 pm

   Wow this is great. It will be interesting to see what the response will be from 37Signals.

   As far as hosting this solution on your own I really dont see that as an issue due the minimal space the db would use.

5. xxdesmus
   

   July 6th, 2006 at 6:52 pm

   I have one setup on my test server if anyone is interesting in trying it out drop me an email and I will send you a user/pass to take a look around

   xxdesmus a.t. g mail

6. Chris Boulton
   

   July 6th, 2006 at 6:54 pm

   The response will indeed be interesting as this will hit 37s where it hurts.. their ego.

   I just installed this script and I am telling you now, in it’s current state it isn’t very good competition.

   - Wouldn’t install on MySQL 5.0 properly, had to import the schema and default inserts myself.
   - Is no where near as slick as Basecamp (though it is only alpha)

   I did, a while ago, begin to work on a Basecamp clone because it is something we needed to manage an application I develop. As the application is free and I already fork out for our server monthly, paying for a service like that is something I just don’t feel like doing.

   I got pretty far in my application including messages, to-do lists, the “writeboard” functionality, and milestones. It is all AJAX/Javascript based in terms of marking to-do items and lists as completed, adding new items, re-ordering lists etc.

   It’s interesting the name they chose to, “activeCollab” which is very similar to the name I had on mine.

   This is definitely a project worth following though.

7. John P
   

   July 6th, 2006 at 7:11 pm

   This comment from Jason posted on the “Being 37Signals for Free” blog before ActiveCollab was released is funny. No better way to motivate a coder than to taunt him:

   Jason Fried says:

   April 16th, 2006 at 12:08 pm
   Thanks for the press, Scrivs and Co.

   A few things…

   1. You severely underestimate the time, vision, and leadership it takes to bring *any* product to market — especially a consumer/business product used by non-techies. Basecamp, Blinksale, Typepad, Flickr, etc — they are all “simple” tools on the surface. It’s what you don’t see that’s the hard part. It’s not a matter of getting some talented people in the room. That’s the easy part. Making the right decisions at the right time for the right reasons is the hard part. The decisions involve design, development, marketing, promotion, support, analyzing customer feedback, what to add in or leave out, etc.

   2. There are already hundreds of project management apps out there. Do a search for “Project Management Software” on Google. So you’re “tool-in-a-weekend” idea isn’t just going to compete with Basecamp, but it will also compete with the hundreds of others tools already established in the market. Basecamp didn’t create the space, it entered the already well established space. We had a different take on project management/collaboration, we didn’t just copy another player. If you have a better idea go for it, but there’s little gained by copying someone else.

   3. Talented people are busy. They aren’t sitting around waiting to copy the next big thing. And talented people also prefer to work on something meaningful, not copying someone else’s hard work so they can save $12/month. That isn’t satisfying work and when you aren’t satisfied at your core then the product will reflect that.

   4. Where’s the motivation? Why spend months and months copying something that is pretty good already? People are motivated to spend their time making something considerably better than what’s out there, not making something that’s on par with something out there. There are plenty of great new ideas to be developed — why not spend your brainpower and energy on those?

   5. There are very few successful ad-supported software products. Are there *any* from anyone besides the huge companies that can afford to subsidize new products with revenue from other endevours? Ad-supported content is different from ad-supported software. It’s not as easy as saying “If you want to do a hosted model you could still sell advertising and run things for free.”

   5. It’s already been 11 days since you posted this. That’s two weekends and a handful of days. Any progress?

8. John P
   

   July 6th, 2006 at 7:15 pm

   Even more funny is they built and gave away free the tools to easily copy them, Ruby on Rails. I never really liked Jason too much, from hearing podcasts with him he always sound like he thinks knows everything, “we can talk more about that later if you want…..”

9. Jared White
   

   July 6th, 2006 at 7:17 pm

   I just downloaded Alpha 1 of activeCollab and looked at the PHP 5 source. Wow. This one guy, Ilija, has developed an entire Ruby-on-Rails-like framework from scratch to power this puppy. It’s very good, clean, OOP code. Not that this matters to anyone but programming geeks, but what it really means is this: activeCollab isn’t just some hacked-together piece of **** by some PHP script kiddie during his lunch break, but is a really solid, well-thought-out application by a good programmer. Assuming he doesn’t give up now (unlikely) and let this project wither on the vine, this could grow to be a MAJOR success and a significant blow to 37signals. Hmm.

10. Ebrahim
    

    July 6th, 2006 at 7:17 pm

    Great effort by Studen. Script works great.

11. kv
    

    July 6th, 2006 at 7:33 pm

    My money is on this free open-source project tool that is looking better all of the time: http://www.streber-pm.org/

    streber is looking slick….

12. xxdesmus
    

    July 6th, 2006 at 7:40 pm

    I am quite impressed. Especially for such an early build, this quite nice already. I think Jason’s above comments are childish and quite obviously showing some worry on 37signals’s part.

    His entire 4th point is just moronic. If we were to follow that path of thinking we’d never have any innovation because we’d just think “oh, the way that guy does it is good enough.” …think out of the box, think how make an existing program better…nice try Jason. He’s just trying to cover his own a**.

13. David and Jason
    

    July 6th, 2006 at 7:51 pm

    Competition is great. Basecamp has had plenty of it from day one. This is another entry to the list of products that do online project management. In the open-source space, there’s already dotProject (http://www.dotproject.net/), phpCollab (http://www.php-collab.org/blog/), and streberPM (http://www.streber-pm.org/). If you want something to open source to install on your own machine, you should give those a look as well.

    Is ActiveCollab better, worse, or about the same as Basecamp? That’s for people and the free market to decide. But a clone? Nah. That would imply it had exactly the same features, design, and implementation. That’s obviously not the case. This is competition. Just as the other projects mentioned above.

    In any case, good luck to Ilija with his project. It’s always fun to release something you’ve worked on for a while onto the world.

14. Ben
    

    July 6th, 2006 at 7:52 pm

    Could use a UI designer…

15. James Weirick
    

    July 6th, 2006 at 8:01 pm

    This will not hurt 37Signals. Jason has a point, there are already hundreds of project management programs. The reason that Basecamp is number 1 is simple: it is perfect. I’ve used several in the past, none compare with anything made by 37Signals. There is more to a product than features. Its about design and thought.

    Also, one of the benefits of Basecamp is that you don’t have to install anything. You don’t have to worry about upgrades, or maintenance. You just sign up, and it works. If it doesn’t, they have professional support.

16. Jason Fried
    

    July 6th, 2006 at 8:11 pm

    “I think Jason’s above comments are childish and quite obviously showing some worry on 37signals’s part.”

    Yeah, sometimes I can sound like an idiot. Newsflash: I’m human! Things could be worse.

    But if you’ll allow me to play with something *you* said…

    “if we were to follow that path of thinking we’d never have any innovation because we’d just think “oh, the way that guy does it is good enough.” …think out of the box, think how make an existing program better”

    Since when is “cloning” an existing product considered “innovation” or “thinking outside the box” or “making an existing program better?” Clone means the same, not better, not different, not new. Of course Activecollab isn’t a Basecamp clone or a PHPcollab clone or a MS Project clone or… Each product has a different take and execution on something similar. That’s competition and it’s healthy. And there’s plenty of competition in this space. I’m not sure why Arrington suggests we have a “virtual monopoly.” There are no monopolies in this space.

    Anyhow, we wish everyone who has the guts to release a product to the public good luck. It’s certainly a wonderful thing to experience.

17. Jason Fried
    

    July 6th, 2006 at 8:16 pm

    Competition is great. Basecamp has had plenty of it from day one. This is another entry to the list of products that do online project management. In the open-source space, there’s already dotProject (http://www.dotproject.net/), phpCollab (http://www.php-collab.org/blog/), and streberPM (http://www.streber-pm.org/). If you want something to open source to install on your own machine, you should give those a look as well.

    Is ActiveCollab better, worse, or about the same as Basecamp? That’s for people and the free market to decide. But a clone? Nah. That would imply it had exactly the same features, design, and implementation. That’s obviously not the case. This is competition. Just as the other projects mentioned above.

    In any case, good luck to Ilija with his project. It’s always fun to release something you’ve worked on for a while onto the world.

    -David and Jason from 37signals

18. Jason Fried
    

    July 6th, 2006 at 8:19 pm

    “The reason that Basecamp is number 1 is simple: it is perfect. I’ve used several in the past, none compare with anything made by 37Signals. There is more to a product than features. Its about design and thought.”

    Thanks for the kind words, James. We’re doing our best.

19. Mark Devlin
    

    July 6th, 2006 at 8:29 pm

    Basecamp is useful, but it is far from perfect. I am a paying customer. I find some of the UI decisions to be a real PITA, and there are a few missing features that I think should be obvious (comments on to-do items, for example).

    Hopefully this type of competition will force Basecamp to improve more.

    Jason, can you make it so that when you add a new item to a list that it goes to the top of the list, so it doesn’t have to be dragged several times up using the AJAX interface? Cheers!

20. Ben
    

    July 6th, 2006 at 8:33 pm

    @Mark Devlin: 37signals has always said that they prefer a simple application and don’t intend to fill it with features that the majority of users don’t ask for.

21. Ron
    

    July 6th, 2006 at 8:45 pm

    Although I disagree with what Jason Fried has to say most of the time, I do think he has very valid points in his comments to Studen. The space is indeed very well-established even before 37signals came into the scene. Although I don’t use Basecamp (only test-drive it for a while), I could easily see how Basecamp managed to create something innovative in the PM space. I agree with Jason that if you were to embark on something, might as well use that opportunity to create something different. Not necessarily meaning that don’t create another PM software, but try to incorporate something that Basecamp doesn’t already have. One thing that I’ve always thought about Basecamp (and surely one of the reasons I don’t use Basecamp much) is that it doesn’t work well for programming-based projects (the closest is trac, but even trac is not as sleek as Basecamp). So it could be worthwhile for someone to create something like that, based on Basecamp, and you could have an application that will truly be serving a purpose not unlike Basecamp. Not sure if Studen plans on adding new features to activeCollab, but if he only aim to be on par with Basecamp, then it’s truly a pity and waste of a great opportunity.

22. Don Wilson
    

    July 6th, 2006 at 9:01 pm

    Download and install on your own server? No competition to Basecamp there. No thanks.

23. Mark Devlin
    

    July 6th, 2006 at 9:15 pm

    Ben, are you on the payroll of 37 signals? If not, then you don’t have the right to speak on their behalf regarding their support policies regarding my feature request.

    My request is a simple one that would enhance all users’ experience of the product. Personally, I think that despite your claim, 37 signals do listen to their customers, because if they didn’t then they run the risk that alienating customers like me, who can easily move to newer services that provide missing features.

24. Sean Hayford O'Leary
    

    July 6th, 2006 at 9:24 pm

    I currently subscribe to Basecamp. But if I like this (installing it now), I could easily see myself dumping Basecamp.

    Basecamp is awesome software — don’t get me wrong — but I’m just not wild about the limitations. Especially the lack of SSL on the lower plans (which, ironically, I can get on shared hosting far cheaper than it would be to upgrade to a Basecamp plan with it).

25. digitaljhelms
    

    July 6th, 2006 at 9:45 pm

    @Don Wilson: Serious? No competition?

    It’s open source and (not positive) skinned with CSS, so what would stop someone from yanking it down, installing it, reskinning it with a complete corporate identity, integrating client-side (not code talk here, actually client level access) features that would allow a company’s customer base to jump in and check invoices, ask questions, submit feature requests for their project, etc.. The possibilities for a system such as activeCollab are limitless, [of course] if the framework is solid and built correctly.

    I’m a paying customer of Basecamp like many others, and I do enjoy the simplicity of their system. Yet, I agree with Mark, it is definitely not perfect and cries out for some of the most elementary features. But, as it sits, only features that are requested wide-spread are considered, so what’s the point; it’s picking a rabbit out of a hat when that’s the only means for features to be implemented. Tons of developers just like me don’t always have the time to email a company with a list of features we’d like to see - especially if you’ve done it a hundred times and never seen anything come of it…

    Obviously this alternative intrigues me. However, if it were taken to the limit I’ve discussed - yes, at some point it would become more than a PMS. But who cares, it could easily be a modularly access system that shows only what is necessary at any given time to the appropriate users. The whole point here is control, not just beauty or even cost (free or not). If one gives more control than the other, I say why not…

    PS. After all that talk, I honestly don’t think I’ll be moving away from Basecamp. Not because I’m in love with it, but because I can’t export my own [critical] project data (I don’t care about the comments, give me the todo’s). What a great feature they’ve considered for the integrity of their company. Can’t say I blame them though, I’d do the same! activeCollab seems a great choice, however, for the new PMS user or someone who only has one small project in Basecamp and is considering the upgrade. This is where I see Basecamp loosing some amount (large or small) of customers.

26. Ry Walker
    

    July 6th, 2006 at 9:55 pm

    Kudos 37Signals — you’ve achieved enough success that people are going to be taking cheap shots at you now — get ready for 37$ignals moniker

27. MikeInAZ
    

    July 6th, 2006 at 9:57 pm

    I installed this on my local machine. It’s not bad, but it’s pretty rough around the edges. I can see where this could get quite popular but I don’t think the main users of Basecamp and ActiveCollab will intersect.

    I’ll take a more thorough look, but it just feels clunkier. But because it’s open source, users have more potential for customization and flexibility.

    Basecamp = iPod
    ActiveCollab = Korean MP3 XP 2330XT SUPER Edition Limited Super Audio Maxtreme

    

28. Chris Ritke
    

    July 6th, 2006 at 10:08 pm

    Really - how many people in the real world know what php5 and mysql is? The model is get in there, do your stuff and don’t worry about configuring all kinds of stuff.

    On the other hand - if you do know php and mysql and can configure a server: go for it - not me!

29. ruzz
    

    July 6th, 2006 at 10:20 pm

    as an existing free user (with my own servers) of basecamp for a couple projects, I downloaded and installed (3 simple steps, really) activecollab. I used it for a short time and decided I’m pretty much done with basecamp.

    People who complain it’s rough around the edges maybe need to spend more time in basecamp, where design choices are ugly–but highly functional. And, i guess studen has taken advantage of a lot of 37signals time and effort because it feels very basecamp like.. but with it being on my servers i get greater control.

    so, i may be the only user where these two products intersect and cost 37signals a customer (albeit a free one right now) I would be surprised.

    I think, though, there are enough users to go around.

    lastly, i think jason and others should know sometimes we build things for other motivations than profit: experience; notice; to test a theory; or because we’re bored even. I think we should be happy to see such a well thoughtout, free and ambitious offering.

30. street
    

    July 6th, 2006 at 11:05 pm

    Well JF… here it comes…

    Let me know when I can pre-order Office 2009.

    – insert long drawn out comment about creators vs. monkeys here…

31. James
    

    July 6th, 2006 at 11:14 pm

    Jason Fried.. if this doesn’t bother you why are you replying to comments on this post? You have an arrogant attitude most times, and trust me, this gets you nowhere. I’m CTO for a software company that you would’ve heard of, and we didn’t get where we are by acting arrogant and ignorant. I wish ActiveCollab the best of success, and hope he offers a hosted solution to take on basecamp directly.

32. e.j.
    

    July 6th, 2006 at 11:25 pm

    well, im all for things that take jf and dhh down a notch potentially. i am not delusional, this of course helps 37signals as a brand, it essentially news/press and reiterates that they are the ones to chase. it will surely not kill their business. as with all companies, your initial hit may one day become a commodity and you have to use the revenues while they last to extend your brand into other businesses. if not now, it is sure to happen eventually and will put JF to the test as a CEO. we should all be so lucky to have the opportunity to face that challenge.

    37s is reaping what they sew tho. there is some palpable ill will they have truly earned with their funky attitudes. and here is the first shot across the bow from all the silly non-ruby developers that have been “taken to task” by dhh.

    these dudes are not really a tech company tho. they are marketing the hell out of very simple tech and refining the design of stuff that has been around forever. most importantly they are monetising every breath they take. id guess they make most of their money on ridiculous $19 pdfs and lame conferences so who knows if they even care.

    anyways, the prime customer for basecamp are super casual people that would have no clu on how to install this or want to. but this is a great substitute for people that have a clu, have a server, and realy dont want to fatten the pockets of those fatheads anymore.

33. street
    

    July 6th, 2006 at 11:29 pm

    James? Which car company do you work for? A major one?

    Laugh while you can monkey boy!

34. e.j.
    

    July 6th, 2006 at 11:32 pm

    james, i obviously agree with your premise. but i would like to point out that 37signals DID get where they are primarily by acting arrogant and ignorant.

35. Nik Cubrilovic
    

    July 6th, 2006 at 11:38 pm

    A few points to clear up.

    Jason: Marshall wrote the post, not Mike

    and further, I am not sure if the ‘basecamp clone’ angle came from the developer, or was something that Marshall concluded. In the communication I have had with the developer he never mentioned Basecamp, but in these times with so much software being released you need a unique angle like that to get coverage - so I don’t blame the developer if he did take that angle (ie. basecamp clone).

    That being said, I can see activeCollab stretching beyond what Basecamp does. First of all, Ilija should setup a developer community around it to help drive the next phase of development. I believe that as an open source project activeCollab has tremendous potential, especially as open source developers are more likely to build it to be suitable for software projects (which most people don’t find Basecamp suitable for at the moment).

    Once the project matures, has a support group, developer mailing list and a community, I am sure we will see dozens of hosting providers sprout up and offer this software as a subscription service.

36. ruzz
    

    July 6th, 2006 at 11:40 pm

    trying to stay on topic here-and i don’t think flaming jf to hell was the topic- does anyone get a bit creeped out storing their company project data with what are ostensibly competitors?

    my servers, my data. not that 37signals has show any reason to mistrust them–but when it comes to data…

37. Nik Cubrilovic
    

    July 6th, 2006 at 11:41 pm

    oh and I would like to add that the platform that has been written for activeCollab has been very well put together, probably one of the better PHP frameworks. It would be interesting to hear more about or perhaps for it to be released.

38. Kal
    

    July 6th, 2006 at 11:44 pm

    Comments #25 and #26 are right on the money. Geeks just don’t get it. (perhaps geeks simply CAN’T get it.) It’s not just about the features. It’s also about design. Style and user interface may not matter to geeks, but it certainly matters A LOT to the rest of the world. Just as iPod is not the most powerful MP3 player but it is the best selling, Basecamp is not the most powerful project management service but it probably will continue to be the best selling.

    To the commenters that think Basecamp is going to add more features, read Jason’s blog post here: http://37signals.com/svn/archi.....ng_out.php
    He says:”We’re saying no. And here’s why: We’d rather our customers grow out of our products eventually than never be able to grow into them in the first place.”

    Jason Fried = geek that can think like average person = successful entrepreneur.

39. Ariel
    

    July 6th, 2006 at 11:53 pm

    I forced our adoption of basecamp 10 months ago, and I must say that i did it to be supportive of a cool development group with great UI touches. But as time has gone bye I am disappointed in the lack of basic evolution of the product. So although this article isn’t about bashing basecamp, it is about a potential treat - better, cheaper products. And, i say there’s a market out here for them.

    For all of us who subscribed early, w/our $ subscriptions, i thought there would be more features coming out by now. For example, why can’t messages parce/post HTML yet? Once someone can better integrate MS project files, post my html and organize my ‘front page’ a bit more intuitively I’m outta basecamp. Or please 37signals, keep up with your development. I was a big big fan.

40. Gookie
    

    July 7th, 2006 at 12:02 am

    Use a UI designer…and a proof-reader. It will look alot more pro in no time.

41. Anna
    

    July 7th, 2006 at 12:56 am

    If you’re looking for an easy-to-use alternative to Basecamp, you might want to check out TeamWork Live: http://www.teamworklive.com

    TeamWork Live was released a month ago and has all the features of Basecamp (except time-tracking). The company is very receptive to new feature requests. Their user interface is elegant and there are many additional useful features like SMS reminders, a full text search engine, and an integrated wiki. Their free plan even allows for file sharing.

42. Boolean
    

    July 7th, 2006 at 1:18 am

    Of course this is bothering 37signals, that’s why they deleted my thread in their Basecamp forum at http://basecamphq.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2320

    I’m a paid customer of the basecamp, and just wanted to discuss it in their forum. Previous threads about other alternatives didn’t get deleted, but this one did.

    I started using activeCollab and won’t cancel my membership with Basecamp until activeCollab hits final version.

    I’m glad I submitted this cool project to digg, so it received the publicity it deserved.

    Few reasons why I’ll choose activeCollab are:
    1. I can easily theme it.
    2. I can install it to my local network or web server without space limitations.
    3. Community can add new features.
    4. It’s free.

43. Shrikant Joshi
    

    July 7th, 2006 at 1:19 am

    Do I see Jason scrambling to cover his a**? Or are my eyes deceiving me?

    JF, I agree Basecamp is a great tool and all that. Heck, I an great fan of the SvN blog. You have had the guts to post some radical thoughts online. Kudos to you about that dude!

    But, when I look at you scrambling around to answer comments in TC trying to assure users that BC is not going anywhere, it pains me.

    BC was, is and will always be a great tool to work with. Period. AC is new. AC is for those who can’t pay. And that does not mean they are cheapskates. They could be students like me. For some of us a paid option just isn’t viable.

    My best wishes to you and BaseCamp.

    Regards,
    Shri.

44. forrest
    

    July 7th, 2006 at 1:29 am

    Hi All,

    Can anyone please enlighten me as what exactly is comment #25 referring to?

    Quote = After all that talk, I honestly don’t think I’ll be moving away from Basecamp. Not because I’m in love with it, but because I can’t export my own [critical] project data.

    I thought “Exporting Data” from Basecamp is supported?

    Thanks

45. molgar
    

    July 7th, 2006 at 2:02 am

    Yes, exporting of all the comments and messages is supported, in XML format.

46. Jafar
    

    July 7th, 2006 at 2:32 am

    Me, I can care less about the basecamp stuff. That php framework is something though.
    There is the fact that basecamp is RoR and AC is PHP, so I’m kinda interested what the long run product will be… which will be faster, stronger- better?
    Its like an ultimate test or something.

47. Ilija Studen
    

    July 7th, 2006 at 2:39 am

    Hi everybody,

    First of all thank you for this entry and the comments. I apologise because of the hosting problems we are currently having. Load on the server is through the roof and they had to bring it down to keep the server from crashing. aC is available for download but forum, demo and blog are down.

    activeCollab is all about alternative. There is a lot of people that find closed nature of Basecamp pretty limiting. Your data is not in a place you can control, you can’t customize the solution to fit your specific needs, it can’t be integrated with system you already have in place etc. activeCollab is targeting that group of people + the people who like open source or just want a free solution to solve their organization problems.

    I tried to make it easy to install, extensible and easy to use. There are still a lot of things that need to be addressed, my ToDo list is huge, but we are moving pretty fast. With a lot of user feedback and testing I think will have stable version in few months. So, keep testing, submit bug reports, make feature requests…

    And let me repeat this: its all about providing alternative and meeting user’s needs. Simple as that.

    >> Anyhow, we wish everyone who has the guts to release a
    >> product to the public good luck. It’s certainly a wonderful
    >> thing to experience.

    Yes, it really is. I think I’m gonna get a heart attack

48. look
    

    July 7th, 2006 at 2:54 am

    i really don’t get when Jason is taking about design…37s??? come on pepole, wake up! which design exactly we are talking about? it’s not like Paul Rand is back from the dead and working for 37s;)

    *btw - i really don’t remember any great designs coming from 37s back in the days.

49. Ron
    

    July 7th, 2006 at 3:29 am

    @Boolean
    July 7th, 2006 at 1:18 am
    Of course this is bothering 37signals, that’s why they deleted my thread in their Basecamp forum at http://basecamphq.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2320

    *he always censor or shutting down posts!!!

    **it’s funny how he pretend to be to be super free/liberal/open…but if you follow the SVN blog it got all the characteristics of a bad cult!

    what a hypocrite!

50. Mark Beattie
    

    July 7th, 2006 at 4:31 am

    It’s a great app, kudos to Ilija Studen. Open source is good, but not to be confused as being equal to free. You get what you pay for, and that doesn’t have to mean dollars. I got activeCollab running with a bit of console hacking to create a DB for it and set file permissions and stuff. 5-10 minutes maybe, but if I wanted to keep using it for the duration of it’s lifespan I should expect more of the same as the DB schema evolves and features are added and improved. Of course, keeping the installation and my data intact are also my responsibility.

    That’s the common misconception of open source - that it’s *completely* free. Everything costs something, whether it’s some of your time, or a small monthly fee. I’m thinking that most of Basecamp’s paying users already appreciate that, seeing as it is a tool designed to help better manage your time and resources in the first place.

    The following activeCollab is attracting may be comprised more of the kind of individuals who are happy to apply a bit of elbow grease to working on their tools as well as working with them. It’s all good, different products for different market psychographics. All the best to both.

51. shawpy
    

    July 7th, 2006 at 4:45 am

    Whats going on guys? Its 14.41 here (Brussels time) and 37signals web site is down - is this discussion bringing on a DDOS attack on them?

    Anyway back to the discussion, my view is the market is wide enough for all competition, hell, we even let Microsoft participate.

    One thing I would like to see though is several players in the hosted software field get together and offer a suite - all of their software fitted together with a single sign on.

52. Ilija Studen
    

    July 7th, 2006 at 5:04 am

    I just explained why activeCollab is free and what group of people it’s targeting. If you wish take a look at the comments on this entry.

53. David
    

    July 7th, 2006 at 5:26 am

    Is it ironic that Basecamp, Tada lists, campfire, and even 37signals.com are all down right now???

54. RDB
    

    July 7th, 2006 at 5:33 am

    ActiveCollab has a limited audience. How many people seeking a Project Manager want to Manage the Project Manager?

55. RDB
    

    July 7th, 2006 at 5:44 am

    David, I have no problem reaching any of these
    http://www.37signals.com
    http://www.basecamphq.com
    http://www.backpackit.com
    http://www.writeboard.com
    http://www.campfirenow.com
    http://www.tadalist.com

56. Kurt
    

    July 7th, 2006 at 5:45 am

    Everyone is missing the real story here. The story is how low the barrier to entry is for creating compelling web applications. VC’s need to watch this issue very very carefully. Creating web-apps that scale is now relatively simple - particular if the app is focused on simplicity (and so many of the web2.0 startups are just that). So how does 37Signals protect itself? I’ve posted my thoughts on the topic with this post.

57. Xumequinho
    

    July 7th, 2006 at 5:48 am

    Could everyone pleae stop squalking.

    This is not a project management tool. It has project management tools in it. It is a collaboration tool. I for one am looking for a collaboration tool, like Basecamp, but I would never trust a hosted solution to this job because they have access to my information (as Google does for all if its offerings). That is why I want to install it myself and keep the competitive information that I am sharing in-house (or atleast for our eyes only).

    Conclusively, I am interested in ActiveCollab in order to collaborate better with my firm, my clients, and keep collaborative information truly private so that I can share important information confidently.

58. Richard Bird
    

    July 7th, 2006 at 5:53 am

    37signals should be ashamed of themselves… taking simple ideas and turning them into profits. Horrible.

59. Wim
    

    July 7th, 2006 at 6:13 am

    Looking great Illia thanks for the great effort and I love open source.
    Combine this with open source cms joomla! and you can have your business running in minutes

    The great benefit for me is that my private data is stored on my own server and I will be able to tune, tweak and style it like I want it to be.

    Wim

60. JF
    

    July 7th, 2006 at 6:26 am

    Guys - Basecamp is far superior then anything out there. It’s time you all realize it.

    - Jason

61. Jason Fried
    

    July 7th, 2006 at 6:35 am

    Hopefully this goes without saying, but that last comment “Guys - Basecamp is far superior then anything out there. It’s time you all realize it. - Jason” by “JF” wasn’t me.

62. Wim
    

    July 7th, 2006 at 6:35 am

    Yeah Jason and MS Internet Explorer is too

    Tunnelvision like this is what holds development not open source alternatives to commercial software.

    Wim

63. Wim
    

    July 7th, 2006 at 6:38 am

    To the real Jason, I was responding to the fake Jason.

    Wim

64. wayne Lambright
    

    July 7th, 2006 at 6:49 am

    Copycats often lack ingenuity, insight and genius. Basecamp rocks!

65. Jeremy Wright
    

    July 7th, 2006 at 6:50 am

    The only reason we haven’t installed this yet is because of the required upgrade to PHP5, which would be fairly significant for us (and isn’t a priority anytime soon).

    If we do the upgrade, I could see us both moving to this *and* contributing to the project (if allowed). It’s a great idea, and is perfect for use as a self-hosted solution.

66. John Smith
    

    July 7th, 2006 at 7:11 am

    This is why business people need to be involved with technology purchasing decisions. Most people seem to be missing the big picture. Basecamp is $99 or something like that. Basically that is FREE!! After all, if your business problem isn’t costing you $99 per month, why are you trying to solve it !?!?!

    I don’t know anything about this solution, but I have to believe someone is going to spend a few hours getting it setup and another few hours each month keeping it running. Those hours aren’t free.

    Listen, I’m no basecamp fan. Frankly, I’ve never understood the hype. But, if Basecamp works for people and can purchased for less than $100 per month, there was not a problem to be solved.

67. thomodachi
    

    July 7th, 2006 at 7:26 am

    Guys, why can’t we all be happy that there’s a free solid open source pm software out there that we can download and modify to fit our own needs? Thanks Ilija for making this possible!

68. Geof Harries
    

    July 7th, 2006 at 7:47 am

    I wouldn’t trust my project files, messages, schedules, lists, client communications/user experience and other personal data to an application such as this. I also wouldn’t want to have to install and patch the software all the time. That’s the beauty of a web-based solution. Less headache. More time to get work done.

    I pay the dirt cheap rate of $49/mo to 37s and get a world-class product on top-notch servers and back-up systems. When you’re working on real projects with real clients and real money, that’s peanuts.

69. Tarellel
    

    July 7th, 2006 at 8:02 am

    I think this a great project for all those self concious developers. As basecamp allows an easy to use product that clients don’t have to maintaine and keep up with. This project is great for everyone who hates to have their information on servers other then their own. I highly respect 37signals cause, I mean it does cost money to run and maintain server, and who wants to distribute a large amount of resources with no return? But, I highy respect ActiveCollab’s proejct as well, it allows for a great intranet service, usability, and stepping stone for all those startups.

70. JJ
    

    July 7th, 2006 at 8:11 am

    @David and Jason “Competition is great.”

    Competition is amazing;) you keep insulting your users intelligence!

71. phil swenson
    

    July 7th, 2006 at 8:11 am

    You guys are way off. This project will have almost zero impact on 37Signals because it’s not a service.

    It’s definitely worth the minimal cost to let someone else run the software for you and deal with all the infrastructure crap (backups/uptime/db maint/etc).

    If ActiveCollab starts offering their product as a service for free (ad driven?), then it gets interesting.

72. Varun Mathur
    

    July 7th, 2006 at 8:13 am

    Open Source Web Applications (Osswapps / Asswipes ?) will increasingly pose a bigger threat to various hosted services like Basecamp. I think everyone from 37signals to Google will probably be affected by it in some way. If I could install a Basecamp-like product on my own server, I will. I don’t care much about the $12/month. I was a paying customer previously. What I do care about is having the stuff on my own server.

    I think I read Jason’s comment somewhere that their target market is the Fortune 5 million - small businesses. Folks who have a need for a web-based project management software, and who don’t want to / can’t go through the hassle of installing stuff on a web server. I think an osswapp like activeCollab would be a real threat to 37signals once it gets somewhat popular and web hosting providers like GoDaddy start including it in their list of easily-installable scripts.

    The “story of 37signals” is really inspiring. I think the real business opportunity for them lies in:
    - Monetizing RubyonRails.
    - Developing and launching mass-market consumer apps. Think Big. The mentality of “profitable, small business” isn’t taking them in the company of Flickr, Delicious, Digg, Meebo, Google, YouTube, etc.

    Good luck !

73. Don Wilson
    

    July 7th, 2006 at 8:28 am

    Guys, if you don’t like Basecamp, Jason, David or anything or anyone related to 37signals then move elsewhere. Don’t complain because you’re not going to sway anyone’s opinion except your own. Calling Jason a hypocrite, because 37s might be removing topics they seem fit on their message board, is childish. This isn’t a democracy, if you don’t like they way they run things, do it the capitalistic way - don’t buy their product.

74. What Monopoly
    

    July 7th, 2006 at 8:33 am

    Three things:

    1. How can a 5 person team in Chicago have a monopoly? Perhaps a monopoly on the TechCrunch crowd (none of which are able to or want to pay for anything b/c none of them have any real business).

    2. There are already plenty of “basecamp clones” on the market…some of which are quite good…and add value in differnent ways:

    http://www.jotspot.com
    http://www.centraldesktop.com
    http://voo2do.com

    3. If you can’t afford $99/month for your business you are a complete idiot. If you think its wiser to spend even 2 - 5 hours a month supporting your own hosted app then that means you value your own time (or your employees time) less than $100/hour. It will take you a MINIMUM of 3 hours per month to ’support’ activeCollab. I don’t care what you say. If you say it will take you less than an hour…well, you are fooling yourself.

    I’d rather spend $99 then waste one hour of my time that I could have been monetizing with a client, spending with my family or doing something more useful with my time then ’supporting a GD software package.’

    You people are absolutely ridiculous.

75. pwb
    

    July 7th, 2006 at 9:01 am

    This is an interesting development. Obviously there is plenty of room for BaseCamp, ActiveCollab and the dozens of other similar offerings. All of the “this will hurt 37s” or “who wants to host their own app” comments are silly.

    Fact is, the purely hosted app is attractive from an ease and predictability standpoint. However, I believe that a large number of companies will have a competency in running a basic LAMP installation and will prefer to host the apps themseleves for a variety of reasons including cost and control.

    The current biggest obstacle of the host-your-own approach is installing updates.

76. Fez
    

    July 7th, 2006 at 9:19 am

    Varun,

    I’d much rather be a 37 Signals than Digg or Meebo any day of the week.

    37S is one of the few Web 2.0 companies with a rock solid business model and has been minting money from its apps since before the “web 2.0″ buzzword bingo game even existed.

    Just my $.02. Cheers!

77. phil swenson
    

    July 7th, 2006 at 9:39 am

    varun, why would you want to install on your own server? I don’t understand this mentality. You’re definitely going against the grain with this line of thinking… why not focus on your core problems and let others do the non-core stuff?

78. Ken Rossi : CivilNetizen.com
    

    July 7th, 2006 at 10:33 am

    I use Basecamp apps and they are now making them more a suite of apps then a string of useful apps. Campfire and Writeboards are integrated into Basecamp and if I could have a private to-do list and calendar that only I could see I wont be going anywhere. Even if they don’t integrate tadalist I wouldn’t go anywhere.

    This open source app has potential but there is little to no support. You have to host it on your own servers, make your own backups, fix your own problems. 37s is a hosted solution.

    Good luck to ActiveCollab!

79. Michael Arrington
    

    July 7th, 2006 at 10:34 am

    wtf is a link to Paul Scrivens doing on my blog?

80. dH
    

    July 7th, 2006 at 10:44 am

    Hey - Basecamp offers a SERVICE - not a Software. It’s difference. You don’t have to do installs, upgrades, fixing exploits and bugs, manage the underlying layers - you just have to do your own work within your own project. There is already a lot of basecamp alternatives (more and less complex ones) on the net since years. Nothing new is here.

81. Varun Mathur
    

    July 7th, 2006 at 10:52 am

    Phil: Ownership. Data is a key asset. While in most cases people would probably be ok with using hosted services and focusing on their core problems, in some cases folks would prefer having complete control over where their data / applications are based. For example, look at Wordpress. From their website: “WordPress.com is a project brought to you by some of the same folks who do the Open Source blogging software available at WordPress.org. WordPress-the-software has been incredibly successful and risen from a handful of users to the most-used blog tool in its category. However, as easy as we could make WordPress.org, there was still a barrier in that you needed a hosting account, a database, FTP, and a whole alphabet soup of acronyms that make normal people like you and me dizzy. We wanted to bring the WordPress experience to a larger audience.” I believe 37signals is focused on this “larger audience”. Osswapps like activeCollab could be preferable to folks like me who have both the interest and capability to run it. But 20% of the market should not define how 37signals deals with the other 80% of customers who cannot/will not host stuff themselves.

    Fez: Digg, Meebo, YouTube, etc….without any hint of a business model, are swimming in millions of dollars, probably are market leaders in their category, and have a good chance of big financial success in the future. 37signals, given it’s incredible reputation and credibility, is well poised for such success. I think all they need is 1 big, unique, killer idea, instead of 5 regular ideas, to propel them in the fast track of massive financial success. I just don’t think the extremely bright folks at 37signals and superstars of this Web 2.0 revolution, like Jason, David, Sam, etc are doing justice to themselves by working on ordinary ideas and having a small business mentality.

82. DougT
    

    July 7th, 2006 at 12:13 pm

    To me - the argument about free vs. paid doesn’t matter … nor does “maintaining my own servers” vs. having someone else do it for me.

    For other people - those may be critical decision points. But for me, they’re not.

    I work for a large 30,000+ multinational corp … I’d liked the idea of Basecamp for managing some of our internal projects, but the fact that it’s offered in a