The biggest problem I have with the iKarma concept is a one-size-fits-all “reputation” score. It seems that their business model equates reputation with “legitimate buyer & seller,” which doesn’t cover many future web apps.

If someone pays quickly on eBay, does that mean they are a reputable reviewer on Amazon? Does a good reputation in technical writing mean they give good critiques in online fiction writing workshops?

Reputation is frequently context-dependent, and I don’t see anything in the FAQ or discussion to suggest they are thinking of a multi-valued karma.

Has anyone married karma with tagging and created a way to partition karma across tag sets? This would let us view dentist karma for dentists without having interference from other domains, like auction buy/sell reputation.

Bill, both are brilliant ideas. Tagging sort of takes care (or should take care) of the issue in your first comment. Ask reviewers to tag what about the service provided.

When I saw the headline, I almost got really excited. But alas, as the post points out, there’s a lot of cons. Seriously though people. This is a big problem, and when someone comes up with a proper solution, I really actually will be excited.

I’d like to thank Michael and everyone here at TechCrunch for taking the time to review our site. We respect your opinions and we take your suggestions very seriously. I wanted to address some of your suggestions.

Scoring System
There were many scoring models we could have chosen and an eBay style system was an option. In the end however we decided that showing a average customer review and the number of posts it was based on (similar to Amazon.com) was easier for the average viewer to understand. Since eBay scores are really only visible within the closed eBay system they make sense in that setting and viewers can put the single number quickly into context. Because we have already coded one of the other suggestions you made, embedding a dynamic iKarma rating in the iKarma Seal we provide, we needed a rating style that that could stand alone without additional context to explain its meaning.

Open Data
We have a million mash-up ideas of our own so we can only imagine what your readers might do given the opportunity. Our Network Viewer began as a mash-up suggestion so are open to the idea of letting bright people take our raw steel and pound in into useful tools. But because we are still in beta, we thought it would be prudent to wait till we have solidified our data structure and code before opening the gates. We don’t want to waste the time and risk the fury of those coders eager to run with their own mash-up ideas. Reputations are literally at stake. That said, we do expect to take baby steps in this direction. The first step will be the availability of an API that will enable users to easily display their most recent (or selected favorite) iKarma ratings on their web site or blog.

Tagging
Bill Katz is correct in pointing out the limitations of a one-size-fits-all system like iKarma. Reputation is frequently context–dependent. The suggested solution of tagging is a planned component for our soon to be released Enterprise Version of iKarma. But the basic free version that is now open is designed to be simple. Most of your readers understand tagging, but for the average customer or client who just wants to post a comment, selecting a proper tag even if pulled from a drop down box is an added level of complexity that they just can’t deal with. The point where a tag is selected then becomes a new potential for corrupt data. The solution we chose was to tie a user reputation to a single e-mail address, but allow the user to link accounts. So for now, if you want to keep ratings from the girls you date separate from the ratings your business customers give you, you just need to use a separate email address and iKarma profile for each. If you like to date your business customers you can link multiple emails to a single iKarma profile.  Basically when faced with the choice between making iKarma simple for the complex user, or the user’s customer, we chose to make it simple for the customer. We also believe that precisely because reputation is so often context-dependent, what the world needs is not so much a “universal reputation engine” but rather a reputation engine that can be used for universal purposes. We believe iKarma.com can fill that need.

Once again I’d like to thank everyone here for putting iKarma to the test. Your comments and suggestions here provide the much needed feedback we need to make our vision a success.

Paul, simplifying your system for the customer makes sense, but tagging can be structured in a simple, transparent way. At one extreme, web apps that use your API could provide the tagging automatically. The site I’m building, Writertopia, might provide ratings with tags relevant to our focus, so “reputation” would be some n-tuple or something like that. The tags “writing” and “critique” would be automatically appended to the rating, thereby establishing the context of this reputation.

Del.icio.us provides a nice auto-suggest mechanism for adding tags to links, and I think a similar system would work well for ratings. Just as in the del.icio.us system, the tags are optional and shouldn’t break the system if the user doesn’t bother.

It’ll be interesting to see how others feel about partitioning karma based on e-mail addresses. My initial reaction is that it’s too constraining for all the possible contexts and imposes a burden on customers. In any case, good luck with your venture.

I spent several minutes clicking on every profile I could find, looking for a member that doesn’t have a perfect 5-star rating. No dice.

First monkey to find a sub-5-star rating gets a banana.

Just like eBay where over 98% of all reviews are positive, bad people avoid reputations systems like the plague. So it’s only natural that the people who choose to join iKarma would tend to have overwhelmingly positive reviews. That said, you owe me a banana. http://www.ikarma.com/user/default.asp?userid=211

Mike, how are they going to make any money if they open up “the APIs and data for third party applications”?

Sure it’s great for other development teams but what’s the business model?

There seem to be a lot of “faith based” business models flying around the web 2.0 blogosphere.

Here at iKarma we’re taking the suggestions made here on Techcrunch.com very seriously. iKarma profile data is now available as an RSS feed, so our users can now add their profiles to their web pages and blogs. Next week we will be posting a spec sheet that will assist anyone who is interested in doing a mash-up. In fact, to encourage mash-ups we will soon announce a contest with a cash prize for the most innovative mash-ups. We’ve also incorporated tags into our system and the ability to pull RSS feeds based on specific tags will be rolled out next week. Basically by next week we will have incorporated about 90% of the suggestions made by Webcrunch readers while retaining just enough control to preserve our business model. Keep your suggestions coming and we’ll do our best to make those features available whenever possible. We do however want to keep our focus on reputation management. By doing one thing and doing it well (and Web 2.0 compliant) we believe that iKarma.com will be a valuable tool for adding reputation and trust to all your transactions.

Very interesting. From an investment standpoint, this could be a very attractive venue. I would sure like to see some financials - eg # of shares outstanding, float, ownership shares, projections, etc. Thanks.

What I find interesting about this company is the reputation service it provides for small business. In my opinion, if iKarma is successful, it will revolutionize online shopping because it a very powerful tool in the small business owner’s arsenal. I believe consumers will welcome a standard or rating system for everything from online shopping to choosing a lawyer. The name and company logo are also appealing because it points in a positive direction - companies engaging in honest business practices = happy consumers. I personally rely on tripadvisor.com whenever I travel and need to book a hotel. iKarma’s function would be the same - a way to establish reputation so that consumers can make an informed decision. I personally like the 5 star rating system. I think the company has great potential.

The only Problem I see that someone easily can manipulate your iKarma in a negative Way. They give you bad reviews, an one moment later your iKarma account has a negative effect on your reputation.

The comments are not anonymous. A person has to register to post one. I doubt anyone would say something defamatory that would have a substantial impact on business because it would be actionable. Also, if you subscribe then you can comment on a negative post. Additionally, a person can only post a review once. As CEO Paul Williams stated in his stockguru interview - bad reviews chase off bad businesses.

I received a solicitation from a sweatshop about this stock. They have received 400,000 shares, and intend to sell them now. Wonder how many of the positive reviews here are from that same source…

Shame IKarma support spam - you should see the investment advice spam that hit my users inbox this morning….though Ikarma are saying they dont know anything about it of course.

Dean

FYI:
I am getting spam regarding your company, just in case you are unaware.
the spam is focusing on promoting your stocks with comparison to myspace.com

GET MY E-MAIL OFF YOUY LIST ,,,,NOW…
I ,,,AGAIN RECEIVED LOTS OF E-MAIL TODAY

I want to assure everyone at TechCrunch that we are more upset about this spamming incident than any one. I’m sure you can imagine how we must feel being an online reputation management company that is getting a reputation as a spammer. We depend on our ability to send sign-up confirms from iKarma without getting blocked by spam filters. We can’t afford to risk that by engaging in spam. We suspect that the person sending this is either a small investor engaged in a (very stupid) personal effort to promote our stock, or judging from the disclaimer, a very evil stock manipulator trying to make us look stupid and move our stock down. We can’t imagine anyone buying stock from an email spam letter, much less one where the spammer claims they are about to dump 400,000 shares. We hope readers here will not let this reflect poorly on the team here at iKarma. We’ve placed a disclaimer about this on our front page and we are looking into making a donation to an anti-spam organization to show our commitment to stopping this annoying behavior.

I am actually indebted to the email I rec’d about IKarma. I not only invested in the company, but also added our company profile to their site. I had never heard of this place, and I agree with the notion that this site could indeed “cleanse” the internet world of scammers, spammers and schemers to a large degree.

I realize it was a spam-mail, but if it gave our company a great new network lead, (and an interesting stock to keep an eye on!), then it can’t be too evil an email.

Yes, you heard me. Some spam is good.

*cough cough*

Sorry about that, Paul, and best of luck to IKarma’s endeavors.

Paul Kraly
Co-owner
Scribes Unlimited, LLC

Having just spent the past 3 hours sorting through over 4000 hate emails from people blaming me for their spam, I still think spammers are a pile of poo. But I guess even a pile of poo can have a cherry on top. So thanks for your nice comment Paul, I’m glad I took a moment to recheck TechCrunch before going to bed. It’s been a long day.

get me off your email stupid list now now now

this is like a virus . i have to change my email address to get rid of you.
how did i get into this i never signed up for anything.
get me off off off

we all know this is promotional’ and it’s working so far’ let’s c what happens..

Response to SPAM

It has come to our attention that certain individuals or entities have been distributing unsolicited spam materials regarding iKarma.com. These materials are being distributed without our support, input, control or knowledge. Moreover, the individuals distributing the spam e-mails are taking measures to mask their identity. Despite these efforts, we at iKarma, are working diligently to learn the source of unsolicited spam e-mails and intend to demand a cease and desist of all improper communications and to assist in seeking enforcement of federal and state anti-spam rules and regulations.

Federal legislation was signed into law, effective January 1, 2004, pre-empting all existing and pending state e-mail marketing legislation. The CAN-SPAM Act of 2003 requires that certain “opt-out” procedures, including, but not limited to, a functioning return e-mail address (and a time limit of ten (10) days to comply with all opt-out requests sent by consumers), be included in commercial e-mail marketing. The CAN-SPAM Act prohibits the sending of e-mail containing false, deceptive or misleading subject lines, routing information, headers and/or return address information. The Federal Trade Commission (”FTC”) is empowered by the CAN-SPAM Act to enact regulations that would implement certain provisions of the CAN-SPAM Act such as standardized subject line labeling, a “bounty” system to compensate consumers for being the first to report a spammer and a potential “do-not-spam registry.” On December 16, 2004, the FTC adopted rule provisions, effective March 28, 2005, to assist in determining whether the purpose of an e-mail is commercial. Only commercial and transactional messages are regulated by the CAN-SPAM Act. Generally, if the recipient of the e-mail would interpret the subject line or body of the e-mail to be primarily commercial, then the e-mail is subject to the CAN-SPAM Act and its implementing regulations.

In addition, most states have enacted similar anti-spam statutes.

iKarma has been run on the belief that conducting business in an ethical manner is extremely important. This would dictate that we do not market our companies stock through SPAM. If you receive or have received any SPAM regarding the iKarma stock, please forward it to abuse@ikarma.com and we will attempt to find out who has been sending these emails and stop them.

Actually, were our 6-month old stray kitten not named ‘Karma’, we probably would have just passed this by as well right into the trash dump. We rescued her, frightened and starving, from the bitter October 2005 chill the same day we received a business loan, so it seemed like “karma”, and so we named her as such.

It’s remarkable what your eye can catch and trigger online; and now we’re part of a pretty solid business community.

I sympathize also with those receiving spam letters, and I’m sorry that you were misled to believing IKarma was responsible for it.

However, instead of expressing your outrage to the company, direct it to the senders of the email. There are still some situations where “shooting the messenger” is acceptable.

Paul

I am receiving emails about stocks etc from iKarma Incorporated. I wish my address removed immediately. Thank you.

Remove me from your spam. I am getting up to 20 SPAMS per day. I have no idea how I got on your list and want it to stop now.

I need to advise people not to respond to these spam emails. It appears that the spammers are using the email address of anyone who sends a reply as the “from” address on the next 1000+ emails they send. Once again this tactic seems designed not as it seems to promote iKarma, but rather to identify those few people motivated enough to complain and then hit them again in a way that is guaranteed to really piss them off.

Please remove me from your email list. I do not want any further emails from you.

I have gotten spam emails not only about IKarma but about other stocks too. It has been happening for about 2 weeks now and they all come in the same type of format. I don’t know who is behind it.

Please don’t let third party scumbag scam/spam artists dissuade you from iKarma. In my experience, it is a good company run by good people. Do your own DD and please ignore the spam. (unless, of course, you have the foresight to recognize a good co. when you see one)

As a result of this mess, I am further impressed by Paul Williams’ dedication to his company as well as net users (who aren’t even members of iKarma). With a leader like him, I believe iKarma has potential for greatness. Most ceo’s wouldn’t even care or respond to this. That says a lot in my opinion.

If iKarma is completely, on all levels, uninformed as to the source of this spam - that’s fine. Unlikely, but I can see it as possible.

But their concern doesn’t make them saints. That’s just good business sense - right now they’re getting a bad rep from anyone with more to do with their time than sift through 500 bad e-mails.

They’ll be saints when they figure out the who/what and how to stop these spams. That’ll be the day. Remember, they do have something to gain by badmouthing these spammers - and so it’s not the thought that counts, it’s the actions taken.

As far as “realizing this great investment opportunity from the evils of spam-” get a newspaper or read a few websites. If you really think you got lucky because you got a few hundred spams that you think happened to be a decent stock tip - you have way too much time on your hands and you’re not using it very effectively.

If an arsonist burns down your house, and happens to drop his wallet on the way out, that doesn’t make it “not such a bad fire.” The fire still sucks.

Regardless of what people think about what appears to be blatant, third party spam (I mean, come on, haven’t you received stock spam before?!)this company has a lot of potential.

I invested before the “spamming incident” and have yet to receive any spam. Who has your email? Are you a member of stock websites?

Has anyone considered that someone is trying to “pump and dump”? Obviously iKarma would not spam, that’s beyond counter-productive and contrary to their company vision (if anyone would take the time to learn about them). They are not a boiler room!

The posts on this site (4 months after the last post on the original topic, I might add) are taking on an decidely different tone, similar to that found on the Yahoo stock boards or the Raging Bull board. It really makes me wonder.

The spam is not the issue here - it’s the company. I suggest that people look at the co. website and do their DD and make a decision based on that rather than ridiculous, blatantly manipulative spam. Why did people become so reactionary over blatant third party spam??

If have the need to promote yourself or your company in any way, please check out iKarma and forget that ridiculousness!! (and no, I do not work for iKarma, I am an attorney in CA and was on board with this stock before this bizarre, blatant sabotage or pump and dump or whatever it is).

In my opinion, iKarma is a very worthwhile company on many levels and I really hope this craziness doesn’t obscure how much potential they have. Go to the website and see for yourself and forget about the spammers!!!

Please, please, please take me off of your mailing list. I am getting emails daily from this site. All attempts to have myself removed from your mailing list have been unsuccessful. Please stop sending me mail. Thanks, Jana Johnson

I’ve been following the iKarma drama this week, here and on several other blogs. As I have a unique perspective on iKarma, I really feel that I should say something.

I know the iKarma folks personally. I’m the guy who wrote most of the written copy on iKarma’s website; I did some of their early press releases, a magazine article or two, and some other odds and ends. I’ve talked with Paul Williams and Scott Pitchford many times over the last year, sat and had lunch with them in their Florida offices, and have worked with them long enough to have a pretty good sense of where they’re at. I’m not an employee of iKarma, nor do I have any financial stake in iKarma - I’m just a guy hired to do some marketing materials from time to time. But I do know these guys.

I don’t believe for a minute that this spam fiasco was their doing. In the time I’ve known Paul and Scott, they’ve always gone out of their way to leave a good impression. They pay their bills on time. They rarely complain about anything (at least around me). They try not to offend anybody, sometimes to their detriment. Like all human beings, they have their flaws, but if there’s one thing I must say about these men, it’s that they’re not so mindbogglingly stupid as to do this. And it’s simply not in character.

Like Paul said here, this is apparently a case of either a) a large stockholder trying to pump the value short term for a quick and profitable dump, or b) someone setting out intentionally to destroy iKarma’s reputation. Personally, I think it’s the former, but I don’t rule out the latter. Not this week.

So to all you people pleading with iKarma to take you off their mailing list, they can’t. You’re not there. They’re not spamming you. This is coming from someone else, and that someone else simply doesn’t care about either iKarma’s rep or your aggravation.

Based on iKarma’s stock numbers at Friday close, they most likely made the profit they were looking for. But, believe me, none of that profit was collected by iKarma’s hands. When Paul says that no one is angrier about this situation than he is, he means it.

Here are some of the bogus addresses that I extracted from the spammers promoting ikarma - maybe they can help you in tracking the perps

pjfq@frueh.at
mehcl@727records.com
krobat@prasadgifts.com
zowm@halobunker.com
bjo@2ndnorbiton.org.uk
yibkes@fss.rnu.tn
mopzy@cadiware.com
vuku@dcm.co.nz
xihy@astroreseau.com
ebfc@retro64.com
tqc@radiobingo.be
slf@followadream.net
kpvggn@francophone.fr
gfajw@beckford.freeserve.co.uk
vqzrc@camerino.com
bhwsd@creativeads.com
sska@graq.co.uk
uqgm@westernlime.com
cxk@sunnycrestbaptist.org
nxiqw@ndburke.com
kxlt@colonialheights.org
wkdk@qaequipment.co.uk
krobat@prasadgifts.com

Tracking these “perps” doesn’t matter.

These are probably emails of legitimate, innocent persons who have been sadly dragged into the spam scheme. Some emails do that; the minute you reply to them, it automatically duplicates the message and resends it, and before you know it, YOU are the spammer.

All you’ve done is list email addresses of people who probably have done nothing wrong.

Don’t make this a witch-hunt, people. I’m sure after the stock dropped like a stone the last few days, the spammers got exactly what they wanted: a huge jump in price, and probably are out of the country by now.

Sad, because this is a major federal offense and we’ll never know who or what was behind it.

BUT, if I were IKarma, I’d look at the stock owners and see who sold off a LOT of shares suddenly.

Paul

I still think iKarma has great potential.

As do I.

I am in this stock for the long haul; I think it is a business gold-mine, and if I-Karma can cater to businesses as well as eBay did way back when, it’s a solid business model.

If I were to be nit-picky, the only thing I think I would ask for as extra on IKarma, would be a nice blog or discussion board for groups.

I’m sure those are in the works though.

Paul

I sure as heck hope it rebounds. I bought 5000 shares last week after a 25%drop thinking I’d catch it in the trough. Who’d have thought it would drop 25% again and then 33%. I lost half my investment in less than a week. I’m too stubborn to get out now. Count me in with the long-haulers. I-Karma, my prayers are with you.

Hi Paul,
There is a Discussion board on IHUB.COM

http://www.investorshub.com/bo.....rd_id=5575

It has only been around for a couple of weeks.
See you there one Day

Steve

Man this stock is really dropping. i hope ikarma is using there resources well to built this compamy

I just started using ikarma.com. Fantastic. I have been listed on the site for one week. In addition to the reputation buildup there is a great additional benefit. If you Google “lace yardage” you will come up with my listing under ikarma ON GOOGLE’s FIRST PAGE. That is the best results I have ever gotten from any idea I have ever tried.

I hope a lot of other web sites use this tool because the more that use it the more popular it will become.

Al Nelson
http://www.oldeworldelace.com

I knew better, but I bought into the spam-scam and bought 2K shares with a bit of money that I could afford to lose, and the stock is currently tanked. That being said, I do think it’s a good idea, and that is why I bought in and am hanging on. I’d love to know more about it, and some of your ideas for the future of the company. But to the hard questions, Paul, are some basic financial data on the company - shares authorized vs. outstanding, assets/liabilities, your salary (Yes, yours) and some reasonable earnings projections. Maybe there are a billion shares out there, but still, I deserve to know.

Even annoying spam messages can become a source of your profit if you think about them as of source of new ideas for popular content websites.