Service: Zoho WriterParent Company: AdventNet
Launched: September 15, 2005
Location: Pleasanton, CA & India
We’ve been looking at a lot of Ajax Office applications (see Peter Rip and Richard MacManus on this as well) and other collaboration tools lately.
Quite frankly, it’s many people’s opinion (ours included) that Writely, Jotspot Live, Writeboard, Chalk and others are ultimately addressing the same customer pool – those who want to create, share, and group-edit documents online.
Zoho Writer is the newest entrant and is as good as the rest. Think Word + Group Editing + Ajax. It’s a rich ajax application that allows sharing and group editing, and, like Writely, has a great wysiwyg editing interface and excellent image import and manipulation features.
In fact, it’s pretty much exactly like Writely, except they do not yet support Word format import/export or tagging (coming soon).
Check out Zoho’s BackPack-like product Zoho Planner too.
Can’t wait to see Google’s (rumored) full Ajax suite that is (rumored to be) coming out this year.
http://www.zoho...reenshotbig.gif
That’s a total rip of Backpack. I’d think twice about covering such blatant rips like this — it hurts your credibility to support these sorts of businesses and ventures.
I have to agree with Jason. The zoho stuff is a pretty broken, and a shallow clone of us. E.g.:
“In fact, it’s pretty much exactly like Writely, except they do not yet support Word format import/export or tagging (coming soon).”
Er, also…spell check; blog posting; open publishing; bookmarks; autosave; RSS feeds; document search; line heights; post-its; or email-in. That’s just for starters, there are a lot of smaller details, too. Plus they’re really buggy, and the workflow is what we had about two months ago…I also found it very easy to lose data…try clicking on the preview button after making an edit, without saving. Oh, I forgot cancel, too.
I don’t know whether it supports simultaneous editing, as I haven’t been able to even get it to launch in IE to test…and this is a very hard thing to get right.
I love this blog, but it would be nice to get a little deeper review of competitors than this. I think a more accurate characterization of zoho writer right now would be a ’skin’ that looks like Writely, and is strictly following along right now.
Sam
I’d like to think about this before I respond directly to Jason’s and Sam’s (more thoughtful) criticism. I also think Zoho should have a chance to respond.
Ultimately, this boils down to who will stop using Writely or Backpack to use Zoho. Want to take numbers? My bet is on a super small percentage.
Both your products have the advantage of having gone to market earlier, and obviously the better performance and features. So don’t bother with it, its another web application.
Jason, on another comment today you said something like: “always love it when we launch a product and the post is about how it needs more features. It tells me we’re doing the right thing
”. Shouldn’t this post give you all the motivation to get even better stuff out there and kick competitions ass?
Notice, even though I’m biased because I write for TechCrunch too, I love both Backpack and Writely, and even though I agree Mike didn’t need to post about Zoho, it’s not going to affect you guys. Keep releasing great quality web applications, and I (and most of your audience) will keep loving you. And not using competition.
Dear Mike,
Thanks for covering Zoho Writer. It’s interesting to see some harsh reactions from Jason & Sam. Here is my response to both Jason & Sam.
Sridhar.
Jason,
We are surprised you are attacking it. Isn’t it what competition supposed to be? Or in your conception of Web 2.0, competition is not supposed to show up? Did Google invent search? Did they invent IM/VOIP? Did they invent web mail? Or after Hotmail, no one else was allowed to do web mail?
You have a pretty arrogant attitude, and have pretty much told your own users “It is my way or the highway” & “Backpack isn’t built to be all things to all people. The best way to get exactly what you want is certainly to do it yourself”. We are presenting a honest choice, and we will let the marketplace decide if we offer value or not. In the mean time, we will just get back to code …
Sam:
We put out our service within 2 weeks after your stuff. We have been working on it for 6 months now. Do you honestly claim that no one else is allowed to do an online word processor? Well, we got news for you: GOffice was there even before you were. Competition is the nature of business.
Jasaon/Sam: Zoho is not your threat. Wait till Google and Yahoo and Microsoft show up for the Web 2.0 party. If you believe they are not coming, I have a bridge to sell you.
I don’t think TechCrunch is here to referee on who did what first and refuse to report on companies building similar tools. What Jason and Sam are demanding (?) from TechCrunch is to give them an additional advantage by refusing to mention competing services. Is that a reasonable demand? I agree that ZohoWriter has a long way to go before it can threaten Writely, but that is another blog post/comment.
I would like to clarify few things here.
Yes, we accept that Zoho Planner was started with inspiration from Backpackit but we have a different direction for Planner than Backpackit. Time will prove this to them.
We completely disagree with Sam’s claim on Zoho Writer looking similar to Writely. We are working on this idea for last 6 months & we have released this within 2 weeks of Writely release. By the time Writely was released, we were busy doing our QA & setting other things to get our service up & running. FYKI, our first internal milestone of Zoho Writer was released on 11th August.
Let me tell you how Planner got started. One of our engineer was trying Backpackit for maintaining todo’s. To be honest, he likes Backpackit for it’s simplicity.
There was a comment from Jason which triggered him to start his own organizer “The best way to get exactly what you want is certainly to do it yourself”. Any techie user will be prompted to build their own by reading such arogant comment. IMHO, this is a clear sign of monopoly. We need some extra features & we started building our own
– Setting deadline for to-do’s
– Adding multiple to-do list on a single page
– Listing all publicly shared pages
– Allowing comments in public pages
– Calender & more
So this was started as a fun project for our own internal use ( We strongly felt against paying so much for the service ). Since we felt we can offer better value to users in terms of both features & pricing, we published this service publicly ( we strongly feel that USD $5 / user / month is too much for what it offers ). We would like to get Organizer to masses by offering more free.
Even if user’s don’t use Zoho Planner, atleast user’s will get better service & better pricing from 37Signals. That’s what competition offers to customers. For example, GMail offered 1GB free space, now Yahoo is offering that. Don’t forget that there were days when users paid for getting more space.
We have nothing to hide here. We work on few original ideas & few ideas which inspired us. At the end, customer’s decide. It happens industry after industry. Does Honda invented & introduced the first car?
Let users decide whether they want Zoho Planner or not. We make it clear that Zoho Planner is started with inspiration from Backpackit but Writely’s claim is 100% false.
We will leave it for users to decide.
Ranjith
TechCrunch is dedicated to “obsessively profiling” developments in Web 2.0. If derivative and/or shoddy applications are part of what it is happening, then TechCrunch would only be acting faithfully to the guidelines of its mission by reviewing such ventures.
Of course, shoddy can simply be a dysphemism used by competitors for “in development” or “alpha”. And Zoho writer clearly labels itself as alpha-stage. Since a common piece of advice for start-ups is to get an application up and running on the web as soon as possible, it seems perverse to disqualify alpha companies from consideration precisely because of the qualities that make them alpha. This is trite to point out, but we all have to start somewhere. The interesting thing will be to see the progress that Zoho is un/able to make.
Part of the fun and utility of reading TechCrunch stems from the ability to see different competitors in a space and track how they evolve and compete over time. If this blog were limited to tracking the initial front-runners, it wouldn’t be nearly as interesting or useful. A newsletter devoted to tracking developments in the auto industry in the 1920s would not be worthwhile if it only covered the evolution of the Model T.
Jason argues that Zoho is unoriginal and therefore undeserving of coverage. This does not seem to be sufficient to eliminate a venture from consideration. If an application were unoriginal but superior, clearly TechCrunch would be within its rights to cover the development and to introduce readers to a newcomer that had been able to overtake the competition and provide a better service. (Similarly, if an application were original/unique, yet not ready for prime time, TechCrunch would be within its rights to introduce readers to the innovative service.) From an editorial perspective, for an unoriginal venture, it makes sense to note existing players in the space. For inferior applications, it makes sense to note the shortcomings. And I think the original review did both.
Meanwhile, Sam does not argue that Zoho should not have been reviewed. He simply thinks TechCrunch should have been more thorough in cataloguing the shortcomings. He might have a valid point. How thorough does a review/posting needs to be in order to be “fair” to competitors and useful to readers? In my personal opinion, TechCrunch strikes a nice balance between criticism and concision. I read the blog to know what’s happening with Web 2.0 with some brief commentary on the applications under discussion, not for a Consumer Reports-style examination. But this is a personal opinion, and Sam may be correct that a more rigorous criticism is needed, especially in areas with a number of competitors.
I read TechCrunch because I don’t want to miss out on the latest Web 2.0 developments. If TechCrunch starts ignoring new offerings because someone else has been there and done that, the reviews are going to dry up (case in point, Yahoo Blog search, Google Blog search etc. etc.). Seems to me the role TechCrunch plays is bringing these to the attention of the tech public, whether the product then stands or fails depends on the product (don’t shoot the messenger etc.).
If products are a blatant copy (design and features) then the educated audience of TechCrunch will quickly and deservedly deride them for it. However, when new services bring new features and ways of working to the party then that’s got to be good for the advancement of Web 2.0, surely?
One final thought – in an ironic twist, TechCrunch today has a review of Writeboard, from 37signals. As always, I’m eager to read about it, but if you follow Jason’s (37signals) argument, TechCrunch might well have left it out because it covers a marketplace where there are already a number of players. Before Jason replies, I know its not a rip, but its not a totally original idea either.
Bottom line, censorship sucks. No-one should prevent or try to sway TechCrunch from writing about any ventures they see fit.
There are few common web 2.0 features like tagging, sharing etc. which every web 2.0 service offers today. I think ( correct me if I am wrong )Jotspot first introduced “email to this page” feature which was used ( shall I say copied ) by others.
Most website offer Forums, blogs etc. today. Does this mean everyone is copying from the inventor? Does anyone know or care about who introduced this concept first to users?
Who execute well is going to survive. This is my personal opinion & I agree with Gabe on TC’s stand here. They did the right thing by reviewing new Web 2.0 application launched in the market.
Peter.
I also agree with Jason – if the service doesn’t add value (ie. it’s just a clone), then it’s not worth reviewing.
What a lively conversation. Keep up the great work, Michael!
Hi,
I didn’t realize this was going to be so heated (my mistake).
I don’t want to start a flamewar. I didn’t object to the existence of the article itself. I think Michael can review whatever he wants. I just objected to the statement “Zoho…is as good as the rest”.
I’m sure Ranjith and his team are awesome, and we welcome the competition. But I think Zoho has a long way to go before it’s as good as Writely is now (and we’re still moving fast), and I’d like TechCrunch to be a little more accurate if it’s going to actually review products, instead of just notify folks about them.
I don’t think that’s an unreasonable request – if you’re going to report an opinion, not just an event, I have a right to disagree with that opinion, and ask it to be reasonably accurate. I would never ask that you filter apps out of your reporting, just that we get a fair shake.
As for the comments about being copied – my bad. Whether this is right or wrong, I was wrong to say this, and I regret it. We owe a lot to programs and teams that have come before us, and we are imitators ourselves.
May the best program win!
Sam
Sam:
We don’t have a quarrel with you. We appreciate you had gone earlier than us.
“May the best program win” – Amen.
Ranjith.
Everyone – thank you for taking the time to write your comments. Sam, I think the best advice you gave me is to go a little deeper into the reviews.
as a consumer here not currently using either of these projects i am facinated by this developing area .. but seriously.. google can buy writley ,.. yahoo jotspot and msn the others.. then everyone would be happy right?
Sorry, guys. You said it, and you can’t take it back. Your true selves were laid out in your first posts. Sure, you have your opinion and you can post it here, but so can the author of the blog, and so can I (maybe I DO think Zoho is as good as the rest – or even better than yours!).
I think it’s completely arrogant, unethical, and just plain out-of-line for creators of a competing product of one being reviewed here (or on any site) to chastise the author for reviewing the competing product… (Frankly, it’s ridiculous for ANYONE to tell a blogger what they should or shouldn’t put on their site.)
Should there only be Ford automobiles on the road? If I was Henry Ford back in the early days, I’d call all other automobile companies “blatant rips” too.
You guys make good products, but you don’t own the right to make this type of product. The next thing you know you guys will be trying to patent your novel, little web software ideas.
In fact, now that I’ve had time to digest this, I find your actions so objectionable, Jason and Sam, I’m going to think twice about using your products in the future. And I’m gonna sincerely root for the folks over at Zoho or anyone else who might decide to make a competing product to improve their sites and get better than you guys. That way, I get a better product and you get to eat crow.
Jason is not arguing that TechCrunch shouldn’t cover competing products. He’s arguing that Zoho Planner is a blatant rip-off of Backpack and should be treated as such.
We’re all adults here. Let’s leave strawman arguments out of it.
John:
What is a “blatant rip-off”? Is MSN Search a “blatant rip-off” of Google Search? Is Google Talk a “blatant rip off” of Skype? Is the new Yahoo Mail a “blatant rip off” of GMail or was Gmail a “blatant rip off” of OddPost/Yahoo? Or was MS Windows a “blatant rip-off” of MacOS?
Ideas are built on top of other ideas Zoho Planner itself was built because Jason explicitly challenged users to take a hike and build their own service, if they want more features or a better price. We took up the challenge, and built it. Our philosophy is different from his, and we will add features as appropriate and needed by users and we will offer better prices. So we don’t have the right to build that app just because His Excellency Jason Fried has built it already?
“Rip off” is not the phrase you are looking for; that actually means “overcharging for a product or service, way out of proportion to its costs”. There is a more appropriate word for what we are doing – “competition”. It is obvious Jason doesn’t like it, but it is a feature of this thing called the “real world”.
Sridhar
Sridhar: Rip-off was in fact the word I was looking for. Not “rip off,” as that is two words and it means exactly what you said. See here: http://www.dict...2&Database=*&Query=rip-off
Anyway, to me a “blatant rip-off” is a product that closely mimics the core functionality, design and user experience of another. A blatant rip-off bears an uncanny resemblance to the original.
At some point, things become standardized and commoditized to the point where everything starts to look and work basically the same… cars, search engines, operating systems. But personal information managers in the style of Backpack have not reached that point yet. Maybe they will someday.
In the meantime, of course you have the right to build this app! Nobody is trying to deny you that. But as long as the core feature set and design of Zoho Planner so closely resemble that of Backpack, you will likely continue to face reactions like you’ve gotten here.
John:
This started as a fun project, purely as a “Hey, the guy is challenging us to build it, let’s see what we can do”. That is how we are at AdventNet – go do crazy things, not always related to each other, and not always with a “strategic” plan. It was really a couple of guys working on it part time, and then suddenly it took a life of its own. We put out a beta. It happened to coincide with our other more organized effort, Zoho Writer, which we have been working on much longer.
We have acknowledged the inspiration from Backpack openly, from the beginning. We have absolutely nothing to be ashamed of. Even with Jason’s hot words, we continue to like his app. But as I said, we have our own ideas, and we will take it in directions suited to our personality. For one, we hate to tell paying customers to take a hike.
And we agree, in general, all products tend towards commoditization, and personal information managers just entered that zone
Coming from India, where a 100 million people now can afford a cell phone when they could never afford a regular phone before, I see commoditization as a very very good thing. May be commoditized Web 2.0 apps are how most of the world will experience productivity apps for the first time.
What I take issue with is Jason basically attempted to deny a legitimate competitor exposure. Yet he always portrays himself as the champion of the small indie guy. Heck, we took no VC funding, we have no fancy board of directors, and we have been in business 10 years now, earning a honest-to-God living. Calling us names (”these sorts of businesses and ventures” – what sort exactly, Jason?), as he did, is just plain evil. Call me pissed.
Sridhar
Just for the record, my first recollection of email-to-this-page was in UserLand’s Manila blog/content management server around 1999, where it was featured as either a new blog post or a comment to an existing one. Anyone have an earlier memory?
The Beta of Zoho Writer got released a few days ago. Check it out here: http://zohowriter.com
It seems that both the people – in Zoho Writer are accusing the other commenters. See, the words they are using. They lack the spirit for constructive criticism.
Heh, it’s interesting coming back to this today. I can’t get access to Writely since Google swallowed them up, but I did manage to get onto Zoho Writer, and it has all of the features that Writely was bragging about (OK, so it has been in Beta for a few months now).
I’m glad Michael covered these guys, shame it hasn’t been followed up since the Beta because I’d be interested in an independent comparison of the two of them.
I think that Zoho Writer is much better than Writely. It is easier to use, you don’t have to go through all those stupid menus. I like the googlish user interface a lot.
I think that it is dumb that the first two commenters didn’t want to give Zoho Planner a chance. I haven’t used either Zoho or Backpack, but I don’t think we should exclude someone because they are doing something someone else is also doing. That would be like saying that Yahoo Mail having a Gig is an evil rip of Gmail.
Looking for information and found it at this great site…
Actually, if you go through the entire zoho suite of products, it’s a total ripoff of all competing product lines. Just look at their CRM. it’s a total ripoff of sugar crm, down to the skin level.
Ratty P.
I am establishing a start up company named First Software University, and we decided to use Zoho as our working system.
The objective is to create a collaborative online university, with teachers and students, books and lessons.
Our first courses will be on SAP, Java, Webstrategies.
If you need, I would like to enter in the Zoho management to help the development of the Zoho ERP sistem. This can be the killing application of the year 2012!
Gabriele Levy
Italy.
Just stumbled across this. Zoho Writer is my preferred online word processor. It works well and has a nice interface.
dwiyuqao mshf hkvnlyq turodn dntkpb sbxzj quwks